Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[golfjack]

reply

Perhaps, a good study of the ten virgins is in order here. Does anyone have a good study on this?


Peace, Golfjack

 

[youngjohn]

Sometimes those who teach error change the deflinition of words they use in order to protect their false views. Those who do so do it in good conscience. They do not intend to teach what is false.

I know a man who teaches that God has commanded all believers to get out of the churches. He truly and in good consclience believes this. His sincerity does not make him right.

What is a saint? In the Bible the word means an holy one. The word saint is a translation of the word that is the first word in the name, Holy Spirit. A man becomes a saint by being born of the Holy Spirit. The true Church is composed of saints, and there is nobody in the Church who is not a saint. Let's try to get it right.

If I love you, I will try to teach only what is right in the light of the Bible.

John

 

[carlos marquez]

162 replys to this tread and still no definitive answers to whos gonna get coghtup in the air or on the ground,one says I'll be in the air,another says on the ground.
Let's just be sure we are found in Him when He shows up.

 

[Gracealone]

It would seem that when Jesus calls us home, we will even argue with him.....It isnt the right time!

Then that has been true from the beginning.

It was told to the Rich man ,in Hell, "Even if one were to come back from the dead, they will not believe." Luke 16:31

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Chad has given evidence from the word of God.
Beginning at the very first page, and they would not.
What more can be said..........Come up here Revelation4:1
After this( after the church age) I looked and behold a door was opened in Heaven:
and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me:
which said, Come up hither, and I will show you things which must come hereafter.......
After what?
After the church age.

 

[Boanerges]

Since the "come up here" was specifically spoken to John how can that prooftext the "after the church age" theory? It cannot.

 

[golfjack]

reply

What God has spoken to John is the Word of God. What He spoke to John is spoken to me. If God said it, I believe it, and that just settles it. What some are missing here is faith. Some of you want to believe what you see, but that is not faith, a doubting Thomas faith.

Boe, Are you a historist or futurist? :shade::shy-animated:eace:


Peace, Golfjack

 

[Boanerges]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[rizen1]

Ok I have some questions bare with me.

It would seem that when Jesus calls us home, we will even argue with him.....It isnt the right time!

Then that has been true from the beginning.

It was told to the Rich man ,in Hell, "Even if one were to come back from the dead, they will not believe." Luke 16:31

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Chad has given evidence from the word of God.
Beginning at the very first page, and they would not.
What more can be said..........Come up here Revelation4:1
After this( after the church age) I looked and behold a door was opened in Heaven:
and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me:
which said, Come up hither, and I will show you things which must come hereafter.......
After what?
After the church age.

Concerning the highlighted words, was he refering to people not believing in the last days,
or was it about persuading people to repent for there is no second chances, and that one must not think highly of themselves because God sees our hearts, Luke 16:15.
In other words does Luke chpt 16 relate to the last days, and in what way can it be used.


Another question for anyone to answer .....
Does these verses

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Relate to Revelation chapters 8, 9, 10, 11
concerning the 7 trumpets...Chpt 11:15 talks about the seventh angel sounded. Is that the last trump mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52

Thank you and God bless

 

[Gracealone]

<!-- message --> Since the "come up here" was specifically spoken to John how can that prooftext the "after the church age" theory? It cannot.
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Yes it can, or should!
John was writing the book of Revelation.......
IN context he had just wrote down the letters to the churches, all seven. Then he said,,
After this........after what?
After what he had just wrote. The letters to the churches, which represent the whole of the church age.
Not just the church of those days but the dispensation of the time of the church, to this day.
They represent even the heart of individuals in each dispensation.
The Laodicea church, will go into the Tribulation.
It represent the church of religion, and not true faith.
WE are the Church of Philadelphia.
These last two are on the earth today.
Now, in chapter 4, after the letters to the churches he hears the voice as the sound of a trumpet saying Come up here. Which is liken to 1Thes:4:16:
For, the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive, and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words...... and that is what we are trying to do.

If this doesn't show the truth of the pre-trib catching away then nothing will to those who dont want to see, except the actual happening, and that isnt to far in the future.

So, once again I am brought to the point that we have tried to comfort our brothers, and they will not be comforted.

That is sad, but have done my part, and know God knows, and his purpose will be accomplished, and we will meet together in the air, as promised.
I can always count on Him.

Your Sis, in Christ, Myrtlee (Gracealone)

 

[Boanerges]

Sincerely and with all due respect some say those churhces are different ages but most agree that you can see all or most of them at any given time in history.

I really and truthfully appreciate your heart. I think you genuinely care for your brothers and sisters- I see Jesus in that.

But I (personally) do not need comforting though as I have perfect peace. For the hundreds of thousands who were tortured and died for Christ last year alone His grace was sufficient. If He comes today that would be great. If He allows me the privilege of testifying for His Name in those last days that would also be quite fine with me.

(red emphasis mine)

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Gracealone]

Sincerely and with all due respect some say those churhces are different ages but most agree that you can see all or most of them at any given time in history.

I really and truthfully appreciate your heart. I think you genuinely care for your brothers and sisters- I see Jesus in that.

But I (personally) do not need comforting though as I have perfect peace. For the hundreds of thousands who were tortured and died for Christ last year alone His grace was sufficient. If He comes today that would be great. If He allows me the privilege of testifying for His Name in those last days that would also be quite fine with me.

(red emphasis mine)

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I have no argument with the scripture, what seems to be continually missed is this period of time is the wrath of God, being poured out on a world that doesn't want him.

We are not a part of that.

We are his bride, and we will be in heaven with the groom.

The saints mentioned after Rev. 4: is not the church,
But saints that have turned to the Lord, during the tribulation, and is often confused with the Church.

I'm sorry, I have to leave for services tonight.
Pastor Bob is home after two weeks in Sudan...Night, God bless

 

[Boanerges]

The saints mentioned after Rev. 4: is not the church,
But saints that have turned to the Lord, during the tribulation, and is often confused with the Church.

What makes you think they are not part of the church?

 

[Gracealone]

because.....at the point where John is caught up to an open door, the church is no longer mentioned in Revelation until we return with him toward the end of the tribulation.

John was told to come and see what must happen here after.......after the church dispensation, as he has just finished his last letter to the churches in chapter 3:
Chapter 4: John is told to come up here, where the 24 elders represent the church.

Revelation 19: we then see the multitude in heaven rejoicing and the marriage supper of the lamb, we are now his bride adorned in white linen....

He, Jesus, then comes riding on a white horse with the armies from heaven, which we are part of.....read Revelation19:
This is just before the end of the tribulation, for right after this Satan is bound for a thousand years, and we rule and reign with him, for that thousand years.
WE have to be with him during the trib, in Heaven, to come back with him from Heaven.

Saints are mentioned, for many will turn to Christ during the tribulation time, but they are not the church.
The Church dispensation ended at the time of the rapture, or if you prefer, when we were caught up in the air, to be with him forever.

When Jesus returns the second time, to earth, he will be riding on a white horse, as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

 

[Boanerges]

While I have heard that mentioned in some denominational theologies (everyone has one or some) I cannot see dividing the saints from the church. We are the saints or sanctified ones. The fact that God does not specifically mention the church is a matter of opinion and depends on whether one treats these folks as a separate entity. Personally I cannot find a scripture excluding them from the church but would certainly be open to one if it can be provided.
A lot of interpretations of Revelations can depend entirely on the way which one has been taught to view it.

A lot of wise men have changed their outlooks on this Book over the last 2,000 years and I suspect that will continue to happen until the Lord Himself returns.
Many blessings in Jesus wonderful Name,
brother Larry.

 

[youngjohn]

Rizen1 asked if the last trumpet in 1 Cor. 15 is the seventh trumpet in Rev.11:15. I suspect that it is.

In Rev. 10:6 we are told that "there would be no more delay," but "the mystery of God would be fulfilled." References to the "mystery" in the Bible often seem to refer to the Church.

Rev. 11:15 (ESV) says, "Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever." Does that sound like the rapture?

Notice in verse 17 that the "who is and who was" for the first time omits "who is to come" according to recent translations.

Notice the time "for rewarding your servants" in verse 18 has come. This is the Church.

And here at last it says, "your wrath came."

Here it is "time for the dead to be judged."

In the next chapter there is the rapture of the male child.

Something big happens at the seventh trumpet. I think it is the resurrection of the saints.

John

 

[Gracealone]

While I have heard that mentioned in some denominational theologies (everyone has one or some) I cannot see dividing the saints from the church. We are the saints or sanctified ones. The fact that God does not specifically mention the church is a matter of opinion and depends on whether one treats these folks as a separate entity. Personally I cannot find a scripture excluding them from the church but would certainly be open to one if it can be provided.
A lot of interpretations of Revelations can depend entirely on the way which one has been taught to view it.

A lot of wise men have changed their outlooks on this Book over the last 2,000 years and I suspect that will continue to happen until the Lord Himself returns.
Many blessings in Jesus wonderful Name,
brother Larry.

A lot of interpretations of Revelations can depend entirely on the way which one has been taught to view it.

Of course, that is why we differ here, but when it is clear from the word of God, (and remember we are told scripture is not of private interpretation,) that is why we have to look at the whole picture, that there is a catching away, where we meet the Lord in the air, and we come again with him when he sets foot on the earth again, and when he says to encourage one another with these words, and that we are Not appointed unto wrath, and to escape the wrath to come, then these all need to fit in the picture somewhere, and not be discarded.
The pre-trib is where they fit perfectly.

What we need is for us to let scripture interpret scripture, and that is where the pre-trib comes to its conclusion.

I asked Chad if there was a way to put the study of Revelation on the site, both views, but haven't heard yet.

I know what I have seen from line upon line teaching, and precept upon precept, and it all fits. Even the different trumpet's.
That's the way Gods truth is.......and it brought peace, and comfort.
That's the way my Lord is too.:friends: Love you guys, truly do!

PS: Boanerges, Where in the old Testament were the Saints ever called the church?
I cannot see it anywhere.
The church is first mentioned in Matthew16:18, and 51 times more up to Rev. 2:23, then not again until the tribulation is almost over in Revelation 22:16 where Jesus authenticates his commission .
There are the Old testament Saints, and the tribulation Saints, and in between we have the Church.
That has to have some significance, it is Gods word.
Now also, even those who are part of the church are called saints, but not the other way around.
The church is significant in a time period from Antioc, until the end of the age.....what age? The Church age. Matthew to Revelation 3:

Any mistakes here are mine, not Gods word.....Hubby calling me out of here. I think he's concerned I'm stuck to this chair! LOL

 

[Fellowservant]

The Dispensational view of the rapture has the 24 elders in heaven as representative of a raptured Church. And it says that John being caught up to heaven 2000 years ago is the rapture, or should i say resurrection.

These statements cant be proven with scripture, this is all speculation. No one knows who these 24 elders are. Do a bible search on them lol, it will turn up empty. Sorry but i don't agree with supposedly proof text, that is all speculative, and not based on sound doctrine. So there is no need to get too dogmatic about it, this is much more than meets the eye.:shade: Daniel also speaks of the tribulation, (Ie Jacobs trouble?) where is a rapture before the resurrection in Daniel?

The only rapture i see in the book of revelation other than the two witnesses, or the actual first resurrection, is the man child of this book. And yes i can make a rapture with this, i just need to use Isaiah chapter 66 for it. But only God could implement it, as it would contradict rev 20 and the first resurrection of the the saints, both the dead and alive. We would also end up with two resurrections of the just, if the ones alive or dead, are caught up (Ie resurrected) at
different times.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

God bless

 

[Gracealone]

That's sad, but doesn't mean it isn't there!......
Pray, and ask God to open his word to you, I sure cant, that is the work of the Holy Spirit.

If you would like to hear the study of Revelation, line upon line, by an
anointed Pastor, write to me with an address, and I'll send a copy.
I was hoping to share it here but maybe there is no way to do that.
write me a PM: with an address and I'll send a copy.
You can listen , destroy it, or what ever your heart is, but hope you listen first.
One question please:

Who was promised crowns, and white linen?

 

[Gracealone]

I had written out the answer to your question, but must have timed out, or something, I lost it.

When you look and see who was promised crowns and white raiment, you will see who the 24 elders represent. The Church.

Rev. 3:6 Rev 3:18....

Revelation 5:9 identify's the elders, they sing a new song, that only the church can sing.

I'm tired, have been up since 4:00 this morning......Gods mercy is new every morning so will try again tomorrow.

 

[Fellowservant]

I had written out the answer to your question, but must have timed out, or something, I lost it.

When you look and see who was promised crowns and white raiment, you will see who the 24 elders represent. The Church.

Rev. 3:6 Rev 3:18....

Revelation 5:9 identify's the elders, they sing a new song, that only the church can sing.

I'm tired, have been up since 4:00 this morning......Gods mercy is new every morning so will try again tomorrow.

Again that is just speculation, and assumptions sister lol i do that myself with the book of revelation. I have assumptions too, but i try to make that clear when i teach.

Check your translations, or are you KJV only? Just asking, because many saints are KJV only. Only the KJV uses the word us and we here. Well there might be more translations than the KJV that do this, but most of the newer ones change us and we, to they and them, therefore we have a problem here.

Now that Ive said that Lets look at the different translations for the 24 elders and the four beast singing this song. Why the four beast? because they are singing this song too.

Are the four beast redeemed from among men as well? Will the four beast also reign on the earth with men, and be kings and priest? Are they also redeemed by the blood of the lamb, out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation?



KJV version below

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.




Other translations below

(ASV) and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

(BBE) And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are ruling on the earth.

(CEV) You let them become kings and serve God as priests, and they will rule on earth."

(ESV) and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

(GNB) You have made them a kingdom of priests to serve our God, and they shall rule on earth."

(ISV) You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on the earth."


These other versions use the word them and they instead of us and we so this changes the interpretation of this. And it does it nicely because it makes more sense to say them, than us, if your an angelic creature.

These 24 elders and the four beast, are singing a song for the redeemed. Their not singing a song of the redeemed. As the other more accurate translations seem to show you.

God bless sister