Is God good?

[David777]

And again s.i.e

Thankyou for the apology, it is accepted.

Now let's examine your reply and narrow down what you seem to misunderstand.

"When it says in vs. 16 that "by him were all things created"...it is referring to "God, the firstborn of every creature"...not Jesus. What is says about Jesus, is that He is the image of the invisible God. We are also made in the image of God.

Anyways, that alone doesn't prove or disprove that "Jesus created Heavens and Earth", as you claim. I don't think we're going to unravel the mystery that is the Trinity here."

The subject of Paul's letter is the same as all his letters, Jesus Christ.
So you are certain that the "him" is not Jesus. Well lets read the next few lines from Colossians s.i.e.


"16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him.

17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. " Colossians 1:16-18.

Now, as you can see from the highlighted verse. Jesus is the "Him".
What say you to this.

Further, in Isaiah 7:14 (NASB), "and she will call His name Immanuel"
This means God with us. She bore thru supernatural intervention, the Messiah. Head of the church, King of Israel, the beginning and the end.

 

[David777]

In addition s.i.e.

Look at the following passage from Isaiah 9:1-7 (NASB).

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the authority will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

This is a messianic prophecy s.i.e. Notice the titles that are attributed to the messiah's name. Eternal Father, our God is One there is no other God. In the Old Testament is contained the answers to most questions about Jesus. This is the same passage as in the Great Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Dated to 200BC.

This Jesus, this Light that shone in the darkness and the darkness had nothing but problems with Him.

 

[s.i.e.]

David777 - you really are going into the doctrine of the Trinity. I am no textual critic, or Biblical expert, so I simply don't know the answer that you ask here. It is shrouded in mystery, and for whatever reason...I am actually comfortable with that!

Who knows...maybe down the road, I'll be less comfortable with it, and come back with a lot of questions and confused looks regarding the Trinity? If so, I'll leave that to another day.

However I view the mystery of the Trinity, does not necessarily answer or address my question as to the character of the God who is revealed to us in the O.T....no matter which part of GOD it was, that was shown to us.

I don't mean to dismiss your question -- I would address it if I knew the answer, but I don't.

As for Isaiah 9:1-7 ...therein lies another mystery, which I also am at peace with right now, and content to leave it, in mystery: That is, the mystery of God's TIME.

In other words, how could Jesus, who "will be born", and be called "Mighty God, Eternal Father"...be, born? If He already was.

You see...we can go a million directions with this.

Anyways...thanks for your help here David777. Interesting stuff, indeed...but perhaps the stuff better discussed with real Biblical experts, not a simple man who is just trying to understand the true character of God.

I'm already enough out of my area of competency...but you're really pushing it!

 

[David777]

Farewell s.i.e.

Hope you are content with your dilemma s.i.e.

"In other words, how could Jesus, who "will be born", and be called "Mighty God, Eternal Father"...be, born? If He already was."

God is supernatural, spirit. With Him all things are possible.

"You see...we can go a million directions with this."

Incorrect, there is only one conclusion.

"Anyways...thanks for your help here David777. Interesting stuff, indeed...but perhaps the stuff better discussed with real Biblical experts, not a simple man who is just trying to understand the true character of God."

"I'm already enough out of my area of competency...but you're really pushing it! "

I apologise if you think I was "pushing it". These were quotes from God's Word, not my words. God is the one pushing it, for your salvation and mine. Happy to be of assistance, never take this in a personal way. We all suffer correction at different times. Real Biblical experts are the ones who have the spirit of God.

 

[s.i.e.]

Hope you are content with your dilemma s.i.e.

Why going cynical on me here, David777? You think I want this dilemma? You think I'm "asking" for it? Maybe I should fish or cut bait and just "decide". Maybe I've overstayed my time sitting with the questions of it.

I'm sorry...but in spite of your cynicism, I'm going to continue wrestling with this, in spite of my discontented state. Getting myself back to a state of contentment should not be my goal. I hope it is a symptom that will follow...

Incorrect, there is only one conclusion.

Oh really? There are a reported to be approximately 38,000 Christian denominations here, in the good 'ol USA alone...and all that time, I thought it was because they had a difference of opinion / translation / conclusion on the Gospel. There must be some other sort of explanation to that.

I apologise if you think I was "pushing it". These were quotes from God's Word, not my words. God is the one pushing it, for your salvation and mine. Happy to be of assistance, never take this in a personal way. We all suffer correction at different times. Real Biblical experts are the ones who have the spirit of God.

David777 -- I was being tongue-in-cheeck when I said "pushing it". I was trying to be funny. All I meant was that you were bringing in some very thick doctrinal aspects of God that would take us down some rabbit-trails that I feel I would have even less footing on, than even the one I am currently on.

It's ok...you aren't the only one my humor is lost on.

As for "real Biblical experts" being the ones to have the spirit of God...I would be a little careful there. In the O.T., those people were the Pharisees & Sadducees which Jesus called a brood of snakes. Today, we have guys like Harold Camping...which, if he's right, I'll be here talking to myself after May 21st. (sorry, that was another weak attempt at humor)

 

[David777]

Sorry s.i.e

I do not mean to come across cynical s.i.e. I have struggled myself with some aspects of scripture.You are not alone, I know how unsettling it can be. As for Harold Camping, you can be assured he will not be correct. See you later.

 

[Brighthouse]

Isiah 1:18 says come let us reason together says the Lord, there is one great connection from the Old to the New,upon reading you will find this most true.ask,seek,knock( Matt 7:7) asking is never the hard part,seeking is,but as you have seen through the Old Testament,and the New, those who do seek, will always find.

The question for us to answer is,how much will we seek what we want to find? I know we are all seeking,and we will continue to seek,because we have this promise,in the end of our seeking we will indeed find! ( jeremiah 33:3) one of my favorite promises!! Call to me,not angels not people,not anyone! I will answer you,and I will tell you great and mighty things which you do not know!amen!! have no fear!! You are LOVED!!blessing to you S.I.E.David 777 and all here!

 

[james g]

go to You Tube and type in "God the Psycho", and check out Pat Condell's 6.5min clip.

just an atheist arguing about something he supposedly doesn't believe in.Its funny how people that say they dont believe in God can only talk about God.Do they often put forth this much effort, spend this much time on a God they dont believe to exist?

 

[Eagle_Eyes]

Eagle Eyes -- that's a very, er...interesting? world-view / theology. It almost seems as though you've come to this conclusion, because it would be a nice and tidy way to believe that God didn't have a part in making or creating sin. It almost appears to me, to be an excercise in data-mining. In other words -- you start with your desired result (God didn't create sin), and then you built your proofs to support your beginning conclusion? If you're looking at the logic you used to get there, your logic has holes in it. All your logic is based on the asumption that "this couldn't have happend, because God is not evil"...and you skip over the fact that it did, in fact, happen!

Anyways, if you want to believe all that -- well then, I guess that's what people would call faith. I don't believe there is Biblical support for much of what you say here. Based on what you're saying, then in your view, anyone who might end up in hell would only be there temporarily, and would eventually all end up in Heaven. I can only hope you're right on that one, Eagle.

I believe we are all eternal beings, God is an eternal being, the angels (including the fallen ones) are all eternal beings -- and I believe there is biblical support for this.

s.i.e.

It is not merely interesting; it is the truth.

I'm not sure what you are driving at but I never said God didn't create darkness and evil. The point I am trying to make is that He is not capable of committing evil, or thinking evil thoughts, etc. God does not pervert things, but He created Satan who does pervert. God has created people, some to dishonour and some to honour. God can do what He wants, but that doesn't make a part of Him evil. He is only good, has only ever been good and will always be good. What God had done has been for His purpose. So He can be worshipped! His ways are not our ways, his thoughts not our thoughts.

Believers believe by faith, not by logic. If believers don't understand something then they ask God to help them understand. If God doesn't give them understanding on a particular point then they are not meant to understand it. That's why it is so much better just to believe by faith.

Also, I never said that people go to hell temporarily then end up in Heaven. I said that hell was created and will end. Whoever is in hell will perish with it. What do you think the second death is? The first death is when people leave their fleshly body and either go to hell or into Glory. The second death is complete and utter annihilation for those that did not come from God. Death itself will be thrown into the lake of fire. Everlasting does not exactly mean the same as eternal. Everlasting means 'from ages to ages' or 'to the vanishing point'.

These are not my conclusions.

 

[s.i.e.]

David777 - thanks for those last words. I appreciate them. Sorry for where I've shown you less than pure grace, my friend. See you later.

Brighthouse - Thanks for making that connection, and reminding me that Scripture invites me into the seeking, the questioning, the reasoning. That helps to make it feel less lonely. You are right: seeing...it's the hard part. That makes me sad. But, it's true.

I would covet prayer, that I'm not just seeking in a data-mining kind of way -- out to prove a point that I've pre-determined to find. I really truly think I'm wanting the truth here -- but I feel shackled, and in that, you become less aware on some things, and acutely aware on others. It's not a good mix. It leaves you confused, and wandering in the dark. I feel lost, much of the time, in this. Not trying to get pity here - I say this because if prayer works, that's one prayer I would covet. I need to be saved from myself, but I live with myself. Another layer of the dilemma.

Yeah - blessings to you too, Brighthouse. Thanks. You've got a really positive spirit.

james g - First, Pat Conell, who in your words is "just an athiest", didn't try to argue the non-existence of God in this clip...he talked about why he wouldn't care to accept God based on the character of God as revealed to us in the O.T.

Second, you are thinking that Pat Condell's remarks against God, must indeed prove how true/real/mighty/powerful God actually is, because a guy like this wouldn't be fighting against Him so hard if God was a non-issue. You may or may not be right...but if you listen to some of the things he said throughout it, it seems clear to me that he has gained this opinion/perspective on God nearly as much from the Church and Christians around him than anything else.

Personally, I think one of the most shocking things about God, is that He has allowed/caused people like you and I, and the Church at large, to be His representatives on this Earth. To be His PR crew. Fallen, broken vessels, to carry forth His cause, and the flag of the Kingdom. That is either pure stupidity, or by design...and I'll bet on the latter, even though I often don't understand why He would do this!

Anyways, Pat Conell is a human-being, just like you and I, so just because he is "just an athiest arguing" doesn't cause me to write him off, or consider his P.O.V. non-valid.


Eagle Eyes - sorry if or where I've misunderstood...and I don't mean to make it an issue. I was disagreeing, or questioning your conclusions on several things:
- that Hell was only designed for Satan and his angels
- that Hell will end
- that Satan was a "created spirit" being, and therefore, he will cease to be
- your conclusion that Satan must not be eternal, because if he was, he would have had to come from God, and since no evil resides in God, Satan must not be eternal (which is a breach in logic. That doesn't mean you may or may not be correct in your view)

You are correct, that you never said God didn't create darkness or evil -- and I apologize for my misreading / miscontruing that, Eagle Eyes. You said evil doesn't reside in God...and I can see how that is an important distinction.

As for the idea that God can, and does, create some to "dishonor and some to honor" Him, yes, I understand His sovereignty in this -- but I don't believe that we can also say that God is absolutely no part in, or not control over, evil.

No, you never said people go to Hell temporarily and then go to heaven...but, if "hell will end" and "hell is only meant for Satan and demons"...then where do those people go to when it ends? You say these people will perish? As in, they are not eternal beings? And you are?

What do I think the second death is? I think the first death is the death of our flesh, when we enter into the great exchange, where we accept a new Spirit at the foot of the cross. I think the second death is this time of final grace, when we hit around 80 years old, plus or minus 10 years.

What it seems like your saying, is that there are some people, who live here on earth with us, and will end up in hell...who will eventually perish utterly and completely , and these are people who "did not come from God".

Which -- while has some massively enormous theological implications, my friend. That would imply that there are people here who came from something other than God. As in, created by something other than God.

But I thought HE created all things? Is there someone or something else that creates things, other than God?


And by the way...your making Hell sound not all that entirely unattractive. I mean, if the people that go there live in torture for a time, that's not very cool...not in the slightest...but, if there is an end in sight for it, to there they will be utterly annihalated, as in, they will literally go back to being nothing, or have nothingness...then, that's not all that unappealling, at least, not ultimately.

Anyways...at minimum, that's a very interesting conclusion that you've got there Eagle Eyes. Again, I think it has a lot of holes in it, so I'm not so sure...but, it is very different, I'll give that to you!

 

[james g]

james g - First, Pat Conell, who in your words is "just an athiest", didn't try to argue the non-existence of God in this clip...he talked about why he wouldn't care to accept God based on the character of God as revealed to us in the O.T.

you are right I got that from his video on God bless atheism that he's a athiest . But he did say Abram decided that there would be only one God for now on .No tree god river god and so on.Was that the right move to make he said.So why argue the non-existence of a God Abram decided on.

 

[Brighthouse]

GOOD,Let see if this helps in understanding how Jesus looks at us. You have a son or daughters,he has so many of them.You raise them up the way you wish for them to only be,and to treat others as well.

You are cooking something on the stove,now don't touch tht fire or you will get burned,they touch it anyway,you run over to them stick there hand under a cold fauchet,and tend to there injury,all this time after the crying stops you tell them,that you love them, even though they did something you told them not to do for there own protection.

Do they listen now? to you?It seems in life before anything bad really happenes to us,we first have to ourselfs encounter this,even though those whom we trust,has warned us about doing what we should not do.

Jesus is different then most people,if we were to do the same dum thing again and again,he is still there to say,I love you,is there anything I can do to make you understand that what you are doing is hurting yourself?

Isreal had this problem,many of us do as well.But God is GOOD,he does not say see!! I told you so!! He says let me help you to be a better person then you already are,and, if you will just follow me and do what I do,and say what I say,why you will be a wondeful son or daughter I have already called you to be,you see,you see your own faults,I see past your faults,I see you growing in wisdom and understanding of me,so that you can be good as well!

For being good is always having love for others, even though they may not understand what love truly is.LOVE is always encouageing,always willing to tend to someone elses needs,this is always good,because we find that by doing good,good things are returned back unto us.

Treasures I would call them.these kinds of treasures( Matt 6:19-21) sorry! had to put in one scripture. Being good,means discipline,for without discipline, that which was done to be so wrong,can never be remembered without it.But in the discipline love is also before there eyes,they see that even though you are mad for what they may have done to you,you LOVE them!!

And they understand why you are discipling them.This is a loving GOOD GOD. Is God GOOD? If we are good then we already know he is! Hope this uplifts you in a better understanding of just how GOOD God really is!! amen!

 

[Eagle_Eyes]

Eagle Eyes - sorry if or where I've misunderstood...and I don't mean to make it an issue. I was disagreeing, or questioning your conclusions on several things:
- that Hell was only designed for Satan and his angels
- that Hell will end
- that Satan was a "created spirit" being, and therefore, he will cease to be
- your conclusion that Satan must not be eternal, because if he was, he would have had to come from God, and since no evil resides in God, Satan must not be eternal (which is a breach in logic. That doesn't mean you may or may not be correct in your view)

You are correct, that you never said God didn't create darkness or evil -- and I apologize for my misreading / miscontruing that, Eagle Eyes. You said evil doesn't reside in God...and I can see how that is an important distinction.

As for the idea that God can, and does, create some to "dishonor and some to honor" Him, yes, I understand His sovereignty in this -- but I don't believe that we can also say that God is absolutely no part in, or not control over, evil.

No, you never said people go to Hell temporarily and then go to heaven...but, if "hell will end" and "hell is only meant for Satan and demons"...then where do those people go to when it ends? You say these people will perish? As in, they are not eternal beings? And you are?

What do I think the second death is? I think the first death is the death of our flesh, when we enter into the great exchange, where we accept a new Spirit at the foot of the cross. I think the second death is this time of final grace, when we hit around 80 years old, plus or minus 10 years.

What it seems like your saying, is that there are some people, who live here on earth with us, and will end up in hell...who will eventually perish utterly and completely , and these are people who "did not come from God".

Which -- while has some massively enormous theological implications, my friend. That would imply that there are people here who came from something other than God. As in, created by something other than God.

But I thought HE created all things? Is there someone or something else that creates things, other than God?


And by the way...your making Hell sound not all that entirely unattractive. I mean, if the people that go there live in torture for a time, that's not very cool...not in the slightest...but, if there is an end in sight for it, to there they will be utterly annihalated, as in, they will literally go back to being nothing, or have nothingness...then, that's not all that unappealling, at least, not ultimately.

Anyways...at minimum, that's a very interesting conclusion that you've got there Eagle Eyes. Again, I think it has a lot of holes in it, so I'm not so sure...but, it is very different, I'll give that to you!

Yes, it is rather all complicated, yet simple. It does seem also that you imply that I am say certain things when I haven't. Easy to do, it appears.

I never said, for example, that hell was created just for Satan and his angels. That was God's original plan, mind you, but when peoples' names were taken out of the Book of Life, i.e., refused to believe the Truth, they thus separated themselves from God and sent themselves to hell.

Yes, God alone created all things. But Satan perverted.

Those that did not come from God came from Satan. Did not Jesus say to the pharisees or saducees (cannot remember which, but they're all the same to me) that they were of their father, the 'devil'? They came from Satan. So do all those that do not come from God. Whether you believe it or not, Satan has children, who are not eternal because he is not eternal. The sad thing is that the majority of people who have ever lived are born of Satan, and outnumber those that are born of God.

 

[s.i.e.]

So why argue the non-existence of a God Abram decided on.

He is a minority, living in a world around him who is fairly annoyed and hostile to his kind. IMO, he makes it an issue, because the culture around him is steeped in it.

I think it's actually a very sad commentary on Christianity and Church-eology...as I would guess he has had very few conversations about this subject, with Christians, that were more oriented towards love than theological knock-outs.

I know for me, I would like to become the kind of person that would not take that kind of bait. That I would respond in pure love, rather than enter the ring. I fail in this often.

but when peoples' names were taken out of the Book of Life, i.e., refused to believe the Truth, they thus separated themselves from God and sent themselves to hell.

Eagle Eyes: this is the kind of thing that I view as theologically dishonest. Either God is sovereign, or He is not...and your premise would suggest that people are in control of sending themselves to hell, or not.

Even if you fully believe that, how do you get around the fact that God created them, fully knowing how they would choose...and had the power to not create them in the first place. Therefore, if God doesn't want people to live in eternal torment, He could just choose to not create those people who He knows - ahead of time - were destine to choose hell? Somewhere along the thread of time, God has control over this stuff...or not.

So, if God is really truly in control of all this stuff, in all His sovereignty...how can you take Him, and His sovereignty, out of the equation when it comes to the question of hell?

I don't think you can. I think if you do, you're being dishonest with yourself.

Those that did not come from God came from Satan. Did not Jesus say to the pharisees or saducees (cannot remember which, but they're all the same to me) that they were of their father, the 'devil'? They came from Satan. So do all those that do not come from God. Whether you believe it or not, Satan has children, who are not eternal because he is not eternal. The sad thing is that the majority of people who have ever lived are born of Satan, and outnumber those that are born of God.

When Jesus said this, what He meant, is that they are not about the Father's business, but rather, about the devil's business. Jesus did not literally mean that the Devil created them!

Since when did any angel ever create anything? Ever?

Satan has children? As in, he's procreating more demons? You seem to be implying that Satan is procreating more human-beings...just not eternal ones.

And again, you say that Satan is not eternal, nor are his creations?

Again...I'll call that faith, Eagle Eyes. Of course, I may be mistaken (show me?), but this stuff is simply not in the Bible. Perhaps, you've interpreted verses in the Bible to support this view? I'm curious, as I've never heard this stuff before. And it is pretty earth-shattering theology, I have to say...

I think there is nothing in the Bible to lead me to believe anything other than:
- Satan is eternal
- Satan, nor any angel or demon, has the power to create anything
- All humans have spirits, and therefore, are also eternal
- All humans that you'll ever meet, are just like you, and were Created by the Father in Heaven
- All humans are called, and invited, into paradise, and unionship with God/Jesus/Holy-Spirit
- from a human-perspective, we all have the same choices that we can make
- God is completely sovereign

-there's alot abut this stuff...especially my last two points, that I dont' understand, and may never

Treasures I would call them.these kinds of treasures( Matt 6:19-21) sorry! had to put in one scripture. Being good,means discipline,for without discipline, that which was done to be so wrong,can never be remembered without it.But in the discipline love is also before there eyes,they see that even though you are mad for what they may have done to you,you LOVE them!!

And they understand why you are discipling them.This is a loving GOOD GOD. Is God GOOD? If we are good then we already know he is! Hope this uplifts you in a better understanding of just how GOOD God really is!! amen!

Hey Brighthouse -- I recind my comment in the OP about the scripture thing. I put that in there because I wanted to hear from peoples hearts why they have chosen to buy-off on this idea that God is good. Please don't feel bad about putting a scripture in there. You've shared your heart, and I get that. Using a scripture here and there, in the way that you have, doesn't feel like you just shoving the Bible over my way and saying "here, have a read for yourself...you'll see why you're full of *$#&"...no, you're just sharing a part of why your heart is in the condition it is in, and I can see that it's beautiful bro.

Anyways - the God you describe, I like. I'm not so sure that's the same God that is in the Bible...and it sure isn't the same God I grew up in Church knowing about...but I'm listening to you here.

 

[Brighthouse]

Blessing to you s.i.e. To me, cause I sure cannot speak for anyone else,I see 2 sides of God,like that of a coin,or a bill. on one side, the side i care to stay on,we see Love,which has grace and kindness to it. The other side,is fair and just,this side to those who are recieving this,may not seem fair and just to them! \

LOl I have seen this side as well,not always pleasent!( 1 peter 1:6-9) It is hear then I ask,humm? how precious is my Faith? Will I learn,or will I be mad at God?My choice,as is everyones.So for a while I feel sorry for myself,say poor me,no one understands MY FEELING!! I am not being treated fair!! God is not always good to me!!

Along about this time!! things seem to get worse rather then better! As as they got for Isreal, as you well know! 40 years in the desert could not have been any fun! But notice something as well here please.Were they ever alone out there?( exodus 16)First the people complained about lack of bread,who provided? God was mad but!!LOVED! disciplined! Was fair and just! But also with compassion.

Then they complained of no water in Chapter 17,was God not good to them? Did he not himself!!Provide for his people he loved?Ah yes he did! Remember a remider of this from Jesus himself?? Matt 9:36-38 Compassion being good even when angry,loving even with a tough hand upon his people. and all for us to learn!! Hebrews 12 4-28!! This is what we are to learn.

It is not easy,I make mistakes!! I always will,but what is always good for us to focus on, is even though we may be mad,or hurt, or feel neglected,is that my brother we are not!

We are loved because God is good,and when we believe this,we find out something truly amazing!! we become like him!!Praise God!! You are loved brother!! you are cared for espically!! when you think you are forgotton!

I am here as living proff our Jesus is GOOD!! amen!! blessing always to you! You are smart! You know what you believe,and better then this!!You know WHY!! you believe this as well! You examine for yourself,you test,you seek,and my brother in Christ,I promise you this!! You will both find,and understand! I am so thankful for you and all here! may this build you up!! may this give you food,that you may lack.may this sustain you always in our God,who is good.amen

 

[s.i.e.]

hey Bright -- you know, I can feel that there is life exuding from your words. I believe that you feel free, and it sounds like you have real joy.

I think I get that you see life in this mystery, and that you really believe it.

I like it. It's attractive and compelling.

Thanks for your kind words, and the hope that you are exuding, brother Bright.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

We have pretty much established that all things in this universe were created by God.In him we live and move and have our being.
We have found scripture that claims God did create evil and darkness.
But there seems to be no scripture that shows the creation of good.

Each creation was good by default.So I am starting to sway toward a default good God that created something that he was not.
Hence the anti-me differential by which we can create environment.

 

[james g]

I think it's actually a very sad commentary on Christianity and Church-eology...as I would guess he has had very few conversations about this subject, with Christians, that were more oriented towards love than theological knock-outs.

yes it is very sad.and yes you might be right

 

[Eagle_Eyes]

Eagle Eyes: this is the kind of thing that I view as theologically dishonest. Either God is sovereign, or He is not...and your premise would suggest that people are in control of sending themselves to hell, or not.

Even if you fully believe that, how do you get around the fact that God created them, fully knowing how they would choose...and had the power to not create them in the first place. Therefore, if God doesn't want people to live in eternal torment, He could just choose to not create those people who He knows - ahead of time - were destine to choose hell? Somewhere along the thread of time, God has control over this stuff...or not.

So, if God is really truly in control of all this stuff, in all His sovereignty...how can you take Him, and His sovereignty, out of the equation when it comes to the question of hell?

I don't think you can. I think if you do, you're being dishonest with yourself.

When Jesus said this, what He meant, is that they are not about the Father's business, but rather, about the devil's business. Jesus did not literally mean that the Devil created them!

Since when did any angel ever create anything? Ever?

Satan has children? As in, he's procreating more demons? You seem to be implying that Satan is procreating more human-beings...just not eternal ones.

And again, you say that Satan is not eternal, nor are his creations?

Again...I'll call that faith, Eagle Eyes. Of course, I may be mistaken (show me?), but this stuff is simply not in the Bible. Perhaps, you've interpreted verses in the Bible to support this view? I'm curious, as I've never heard this stuff before. And it is pretty earth-shattering theology, I have to say...

I think there is nothing in the Bible to lead me to believe anything other than:
- Satan is eternal
- Satan, nor any angel or demon, has the power to create anything
- All humans have spirits, and therefore, are also eternal
- All humans that you'll ever meet, are just like you, and were Created by the Father in Heaven
- All humans are called, and invited, into paradise, and unionship with God/Jesus/Holy-Spirit
- from a human-perspective, we all have the same choices that we can make
- God is completely sovereign

-there's alot abut this stuff...especially my last two points, that I dont' understand, and may never

People send themselves to hell by choosing not to live for Jesus Christ. If they don't want Jesus Christ, or Life if you will, there is only one alternative - hell. Thus why God doesn't send anyone to hell.

Can God not do anything? Can God not do what He wants? Yes, God created all life, but is He not able to create beings that are eternal and that are not? Do you seriously think that hell is just going to go on and on and on. It must end, and it will end, regardless of what anyone says of thinks.

What does John 8:44 mean? How do you think sin came into the world? By an apple? If an apple showed Adam and Eve that they were naked then we better pass the apples around. God created Adam, and out of Adam came Eve. They both came from God. Then Eve was deceived by the Serpent, and what the Serpent showed Eve, Eve then showed Adam. They were then cast out and they then had twins. The twins grew up and one killed the other. Cain was a murderer. Is that a trait of God? Hardly! What did Jesus say the devil was in John 8:44 - a murderer from the 'beginning'. Cain's father was actually the devil who was incarnate in the Serpent. You will say this is crazy, as will everyone else, but the Serpent was an upright being in the Garden of Eden. It is actually the missing link which Science will never find. They won't find it 'cause God cursed the Serpent and it went on its belly thereafter. Eve actually committed adultery with an upright being and had Cain by him. Why do you think the Bible says that Eve was the mother of all living but Adam wasn't the father of all living? Because he wasn't. Yes, this is all fantastic, but it's true nonetheless.

Again, have I said that Satan created anything? Nobody but God can create anything. You are putting words in my mouth. As I keep saying, Satan is a perverter. He perverted the human race by injecting his seed into it. If he had not done this then there would be no sin, 'cause he is sin.

You say this stuff is not in the Bible. But it is. God promised an Elijah who will come and restore all things (John the Baptist did not restore anything) and reveal the mysteries hidden from before time began. As per usual, people have missed him, just like multitudes missed Jesus when he came 2,000 years ago.

One mystery for example which has been revealed is in relation to the trinity. The trinity is a lie of the devil which the Roman Catholic Church created. Sure, Jesus said in Matthew to go forth and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Yet you'll find nowhere in Acts and after until 325AD, that anyone was ever baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. They were all baptised in the name (singular) of the Lord Jesus Christ! I am a son, a cousin and a spirit, but that is not my name! Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles, or offices if you will, of the one true God whose name is the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[s.i.e.]

But there seems to be no scripture that shows the creation of good.

Each creation was good by default.So I am starting to sway toward a default good God that created something that he was not.
Hence the anti-me differential by which we can create environment.

not sure I entirely folllow...but I like you're totally turn-the-tables approach Thiscrosshurts.

People send themselves to hell by choosing not to live for Jesus Christ. If they don't want Jesus Christ, or Life if you will, there is only one alternative - hell. Thus why God doesn't send anyone to hell.

Can God not do anything? Can God not do what He wants? Yes, God created all life, but is He not able to create beings that are eternal and that are not? Do you seriously think that hell is just going to go on and on and on. It must end, and it will end, regardless of what anyone says of thinks.

What does John 8:44 mean? How do you think sin came into the world? By an apple? If an apple showed Adam and Eve that they were naked then we better pass the apples around. God created Adam, and out of Adam came Eve. They both came from God. Then Eve was deceived by the Serpent, and what the Serpent showed Eve, Eve then showed Adam. They were then cast out and they then had twins. The twins grew up and one killed the other. Cain was a murderer. Is that a trait of God? Hardly! What did Jesus say the devil was in John 8:44 - a murderer from the 'beginning'. Cain's father was actually the devil who was incarnate in the Serpent. You will say this is crazy, as will everyone else, but the Serpent was an upright being in the Garden of Eden. It is actually the missing link which Science will never find. They won't find it 'cause God cursed the Serpent and it went on its belly thereafter. Eve actually committed adultery with an upright being and had Cain by him. Why do you think the Bible says that Eve was the mother of all living but Adam wasn't the father of all living? Because he wasn't. Yes, this is all fantastic, but it's true nonetheless.

Again, have I said that Satan created anything? Nobody but God can create anything. You are putting words in my mouth. As I keep saying, Satan is a perverter. He perverted the human race by injecting his seed into it. If he had not done this then there would be no sin, 'cause he is sin.

You say this stuff is not in the Bible. But it is. God promised an Elijah who will come and restore all things (John the Baptist did not restore anything) and reveal the mysteries hidden from before time began. As per usual, people have missed him, just like multitudes missed Jesus when he came 2,000 years ago.

One mystery for example which has been revealed is in relation to the trinity. The trinity is a lie of the devil which the Roman Catholic Church created. Sure, Jesus said in Matthew to go forth and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Yet you'll find nowhere in Acts and after until 325AD, that anyone was ever baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. They were all baptised in the name (singular) of the Lord Jesus Christ! I am a son, a cousin and a spirit, but that is not my name! Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles, or offices if you will, of the one true God whose name is the Lord Jesus Christ.

*jaw dropping on floor*

Wow dude. Seriously. Wow. I'm a sucker for conspiracy theory, and I'm always curious to see how cult-groups think...but what you offered here is neither/nor of those...but it is some of the craziest theology that I've heard in quite some time, I've gotta admit!

You should sell the screenplay bro - you'd make millions. Seriously. That's some pretty interesting stuff there.

Ok, so...

- hell will end. It is not, really, as the Bible says: eternal. You and Rob Bell may agree on that...many consider that heresy. I'm not sure I consider it heresy, personally.

- You say sin is only in this world because of Satan perverting the world with his seed, through impregnating Eve...that's crazy enough...BUT, that does nothing, still, to take God out of the equation of putting sin in the world, as God made Satan, so why come up with this fantastic theology, when it still doesn't do away with one of the "problems" you're apparently trying to get around? At least, one of them...(while introducing a host of other questions, issues, complications...needless to say!) You claim John 8:44 proves that Satan was evil in the beginning

- If Cain was "non-eternal" because Satan was Cain's father...but Able was his twin...then what is Able to you? Was he eternal? Was Able not impregnated by the Serpent also? Was the Serpent and Adam engaging in a little ménage à trois perhaps?

- Ok...this one is really interesting: who was it, or who are you saying it was, that is the "Elijah who will come restore all things" that people missed? Who is this "him"? You're saying it wasn't Jesus, or John the Baptist...so, who was it?

- The trinity is a lie of the devil brought to us by the RCC, you say? I'm not really sure how or why this changes my faith. What's the damage that lie has created in your mind?


I have to say, this is very interesting stuff Eagle Eyes. Not sure how you got towards believing this...but it is, well, interesting