Is God good?

[David777]

Too right.

Yes Spiritled, God had to place the Jews in the land God had decided they will occupy. If any group opposed this, they were dealt with accordingly.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I have seen no evidence in scripture that suggests Adam and Eve were any different than us.They had the same nature without sin because there was no sin.
There could have been no sin without the knowledge that they were sinning and they could never have known what sin was until their eyes were opened.Had they not gained the knowledge they would still be pure.(It's what comes out of a man that is impure)

It was not a sin to eat from the tree.It was simply a bad idea for the man to have the knowledge that he could be separated from God.Even worse would be to partake from the tree of life while having this knowledge and to live in this separated state.

I don't see any evidence in Genesis to leads me to believe that there was a new corruption taking place or any change in their very nature."Opened eyes" is more a change of state than of nature.The nature to understand the law or formula was always there but they could not see it because of closed eyes.Obviously the serpent had a point.

I think they had to work because now this new knowledge or formula would be their focus.God does not curse the ground,Adam would with his new knowledge.God does not curse the serpent,the natural course of these events would.
God Does two things at this point.He puts enmity between the serpent and the woman and their respective seeds.Also he multiplies the travail of childbirth.
He then makes them skins.

Finally they are driven from the garden
22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

I don't think "disobedience" is the reason for being driven from Eden.Although that new term would now be their master.
It was because Adam was "one of Them" now.
The garden is sealed to keep(preserve) the way.
That way would be the way home.(That narrow gate that you can't fit your stuff through.)

Isaiah 35:8. And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
Lots of other references here.
If I'm wrong please tell me why?
This does not answer the OP but if we are going to use scripture then lets be accurate,logic should stay with logic and science with science.

 

[Eagle_Eyes]

I appreciate your thoughts here, Eagle Eyes -- but how could it be that an entity could create something, yet not have a part of himself that at least identifies, with that something? Perhaps God is not capable of being evil (He just created it. ??) -- but how can you say that "Satan did not come from God because he was not of God" -- if God Himself created Satan?

Also -- where do you backup (i.e., scripture) this idea that Satan and his fallen-angels are not eternal beings? Again, God created them, originally anyways, as angels -- which are eternal beings, are they not? Not only that, but they also "came from Him" originally, no?

Sorry for delay in my reply.

I'll explain this as best I can, but I'm sure it will elicit further questions. Anything that God created had a beginning and must, therefore, have an end. Hell, say, was created for Satan and his angels, therefore it must end. Satan is a created spirit being and, therefore, he must cease to be. Human beings, on the other hand, are created physical beings (flesh will cease to be). Now, in every human being there is a spirit, and in every spirit a soul, which controls the spirit. The spirit, in turn, controls the flesh (basically, we are created in 3 parts). Now, the soul either came from God (eternal) or Satan (not eternal).

Now, God created Satan who, outside of God, was the most powerful angel in Heaven, but he got puffed up and God kicked him out. Now the questions is, if Satan was eternal, he would have to have had come out of God, and that would then mean that evil resided in God, which is impossible. In a nutshell, what God created, Satan then perverted, i.e., lie is truth misrepresented, adultery is right act perverted etc. That's how evil came into the world. In the beginning the serpent (Satan incarnate) said to Eve that surely she wouldn't die. But God said that she would if she didn't listen to what God said. That is Satan's power (to pervert) and today we are living in Satan's eden, where perversion covers the face of the earth.

 

[stephen]

Hi there. First post. Sorry if it may be in the wrong place. If it is...not sure if there is a way I can change that around.

Anywho...I'm curious about this question. I'm sure the resounding answer from all 'yall will be yes, absolutely, and then give me a bunch of scriptures that would prove it. That's fine. I don't mean to take away from that...but...

How do you know it to be true? Please, outside of quoting scriptures...how to you know? I don't mean to minimize scripture here...but I could quote anything from any book to support my view on most anything I might want, right? Me quoting something doesn't tell anybody how or why I believe it, or how it's real in my life.

b/t/w - if this helps, I'm not asking because I'm looking to debate. I want to listen. I want to hear. It's become a real question to me that I'm asking myself.

Thanks

You ask a good and vital question. Would that all who do not know the answer, would ask the question. Jesus Himself said "Ask, Seek, Knock. "It shall be given, you will find, it will be opened" He was talking about Himself........

I met Jesus when I was a young man seeking an answer to what life was all about.

I pray that you too will seek until you find.......find Him whim to know is eternal life'

 

[s.i.e.]

There is no scriptural evidence that mankind was destined to have a sinful nature. I believe in predistination, but only concerning Christ's redemptive work.

Adam did not have this corrupt nature s.i.e. Adam had pure choice to reject God's instructions.

We cannot approach the truth, we have to be drawn by the Holy Spirit. If Adam was the same in nature as us then why was he evicted from Eden? Adam was evicted due to disobedience. This is what is written. Then his nature became corrupted, he then had to work the ground to eat. I am not able to adhere to predistination in anything but that which concerns Christ.

Black stocking Calvinists believe that man's fall was predestined.
I am not a black stocking Calvinist s.i.e. There is no scripture to support predistination concerning man's nature.

God is spirit not flesh, God is not a man. Our rational mind does not peer into the nature of God. God's nature is eternal, God is not good, He is perfectly good. Like I said before s.i.e, goodness is an attribute of Love. God is defined by Love.

No, you're right David777 -- there is no scriptural indication to show that man was destine to sin. I agree. In fact, what does scripture say about the hearts of men?

Sure, we have verses like Jer 17:9 "the heart is deceitful above all things"...but that doesn't tell us the nature of our hearts...it just tells us that hearts are prone towards being deceived.

If our Hearts were, by their very nature, bad or evil or deceitful, then why would we have a verse like Prov 4:23? "Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life" ??

I mean, really? "Above all else" it says!? Could it be more clear? And this verse does tell us something about the nature of our hearts: it says that it is the "wellspring of life".

The wellspring of life. Think about that!


Adam became deceived. Our hearts deceive us too. But, the nature of our hearts is not inherently evil, David777. The nature of our hearts holds the wellspring of life.

You may say Adam was evicted because of disobedience --- but you've got to ask yourself, why did he disobey? He disobeyed because his heart deceived him. Adam permitted his heart to believe an untruth. Therefore, disobedience was a de-facto choice, at that point. It was a given!

Adam's nature did not change. Adam's nature is our own. Our hearts deceive themselves. Our hearts hide their true nature from us. That's why we need to guard them above all else.

We are saints. We are saints, who sin. We are not "sinners", by nature. We sin, yes, but that does not define our very nature.

And there is a massive difference between those two "nuances". Massive. You will live differently if you believe it. Me too.

 

[s.i.e.]

When I was young and my mother applied well deserved physical discipline to my rear end, I did not see it as 'good' because it was so darned uncomfortable and embarrassing. Now I know that it was good because it taught me some important life lessons. Also, though I don't recall any instances of this, I'm certain that if anyone had posed a serious threat to my personal safety and well being, they would have found my mother to be a force to be reckoned with as well. She would have vigorously defended me and she would have won the battle.

whoa there SLE --- asking the question of whether your mother was good or not? That's a great question, and one that would demand at least as much philosophical / theological / doctrinal discussion as we've taken up on this thread on God!

It's a great question...but one step at a time, bro!

I'm just kidding, of course..but let's just say that I have no plans on coming between you and your mother any time soon!

 

[s.i.e.]

here's another verse that I meant to include in my post #85.

If our hearts are evil, and our very nature is corrupted...take this verse (an O.T. verse b/t/w. I.e., pre-Jesus!) into consideration:

Ecc 3:11 "He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end."

 

[s.i.e.]

I have seen no evidence in scripture that suggests Adam and Eve were any different than us.They had the same nature without sin because there was no sin.
There could have been no sin without the knowledge that they were sinning and they could never have known what sin was until their eyes were opened.Had they not gained the knowledge they would still be pure.(It's what comes out of a man that is impure)

It was not a sin to eat from the tree.It was simply a bad idea for the man to have the knowledge that he could be separated from God.Even worse would be to partake from the tree of life while having this knowledge and to live in this separated state.

I don't see any evidence in Genesis to leads me to believe that there was a new corruption taking place or any change in their very nature."Opened eyes" is more a change of state than of nature.The nature to understand the law or formula was always there but they could not see it because of closed eyes.Obviously the serpent had a point.

I think they had to work because now this new knowledge or formula would be their focus.God does not curse the ground,Adam would with his new knowledge.God does not curse the serpent,the natural course of these events would.
God Does two things at this point.He puts enmity between the serpent and the woman and their respective seeds.Also he multiplies the travail of childbirth.
He then makes them skins.

Finally they are driven from the garden
22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

I don't think "disobedience" is the reason for being driven from Eden.Although that new term would now be their master.
It was because Adam was "one of Them" now.
The garden is sealed to keep(preserve) the way.
That way would be the way home.(That narrow gate that you can't fit your stuff through.)

Isaiah 35:8. And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
Lots of other references here.
If I'm wrong please tell me why?
This does not answer the OP but if we are going to use scripture then lets be accurate,logic should stay with logic and science with science.

Thiscrosshurts: dude...I got chills reading your post. Seriously. I just read it now, after I just posted/responded back to some earlier posts that I hadn't yet seen. (I was away for a couple days)

I totally agree with you here. Right on.

There is some pretty awesome theology behind your words there bro, and I think the way you are seeing it is life-giving. It's hopefull No...it's true.

Am I overreacting?


(and I agree with you...this may not be entirely in the scope of the OP...but still...it somewhat relates to our view of God, because how we see ourselves is directly tied to how we see God, as we're made in His image!)

Overreacting? Let's see...


What would change if I believed that my heart was good?

What would happen if I believed that my inherent nature isn't corruption and sin, even though I'm a sinner?

What if I believed the words God used when He first made me, that I was very good?

What would it be like if I knew that I am a saint, and that I can do nothing to achieve an increased state of saintliness?

What would be like, if I knew that sin management was an impossibility, would only prove to crush me onto myself?



It would change everything.

 

[s.i.e.]

Sorry for delay in my reply.

I'll explain this as best I can, but I'm sure it will elicit further questions. Anything that God created had a beginning and must, therefore, have an end. Hell, say, was created for Satan and his angels, therefore it must end. Satan is a created spirit being and, therefore, he must cease to be. Human beings, on the other hand, are created physical beings (flesh will cease to be). Now, in every human being there is a spirit, and in every spirit a soul, which controls the spirit. The spirit, in turn, controls the flesh (basically, we are created in 3 parts). Now, the soul either came from God (eternal) or Satan (not eternal).

Now, God created Satan who, outside of God, was the most powerful angel in Heaven, but he got puffed up and God kicked him out. Now the questions is, if Satan was eternal, he would have to have had come out of God, and that would then mean that evil resided in God, which is impossible. In a nutshell, what God created, Satan then perverted, i.e., lie is truth misrepresented, adultery is right act perverted etc. That's how evil came into the world. In the beginning the serpent (Satan incarnate) said to Eve that surely she wouldn't die. But God said that she would if she didn't listen to what God said. That is Satan's power (to pervert) and today we are living in Satan's eden, where perversion covers the face of the earth.

Eagle Eyes -- that's a very, er...interesting? world-view / theology. It almost seems as though you've come to this conclusion, because it would be a nice and tidy way to believe that God didn't have a part in making or creating sin. It almost appears to me, to be an excercise in data-mining. In other words -- you start with your desired result (God didn't create sin), and then you built your proofs to support your beginning conclusion? If you're looking at the logic you used to get there, your logic has holes in it. All your logic is based on the asumption that "this couldn't have happend, because God is not evil"...and you skip over the fact that it did, in fact, happen!

Anyways, if you want to believe all that -- well then, I guess that's what people would call faith. I don't believe there is Biblical support for much of what you say here. Based on what you're saying, then in your view, anyone who might end up in hell would only be there temporarily, and would eventually all end up in Heaven. I can only hope you're right on that one, Eagle.

I believe we are all eternal beings, God is an eternal being, the angels (including the fallen ones) are all eternal beings -- and I believe there is biblical support for this.

 

[s.i.e.]

You ask a good and vital question. Would that all who do not know the answer, would ask the question. Jesus Himself said "Ask, Seek, Knock. "It shall be given, you will find, it will be opened" He was talking about Himself........

I met Jesus when I was a young man seeking an answer to what life was all about.

I pray that you too will seek until you find.......find Him whim to know is eternal life'

thanks stephen. Yes, Jesus is good. He was extremely good.

 

[will]

Hey - no pressure. Fully understand if you don't care to comment back. I appreciate your thoughts, and this discussion...as it is. I also get that our exchanges have possibly run their course(s). Thanks for all this, will. Really.

mor·bid/ˈmôrbəd/Adjective

1. Characterized by or appealing to an abnormal and unhealthy interest in disturbing and unpleasant subjects, esp. death and disease.
2. Of the nature of or indicative of disease.

I'm getting here, from you, that it is wrong to ask the questions I'm asking. I'm getting here, that we should not dare to question God.

I disagree.

At the same time, I don't question His complete sovereignty to do anything and everything He wants to do.

S.i.e,
I'm back because I don't want you to misunderstand me. And I left not because I don't care

I am surprised (after the amount of discussion we had) that you still think I objected to your asking the question.

I don't object to your questions.
I am quite sad that you choose not to accept the answer.

What answer?
Ready? Lord Jesus Christ. That's your ultimate answer.
You cannot split Lord Jesus from the One who sent Him. To do so, is to question what The Lord said Himself that He and God are one. Therefore to question God's character is to question Lord Jesus'

It is that simple.

Now, suppose I'm using your argument against your position:

• For you, is questioning God's character still a choice?
• Are you sure someone has not sprung a setup on you; so that you are continually suspicious of God's intentions?
• Are you sure that there is nothing that is blocking your heart (outside of yourself) from being able to accept the answer in the Scriptures?
• What about your freedom to choose to accept God's goodness based on the sacrifice of His son? are you sure you are not robbed of that freedom?

Again, the answer to those question depends on your allegiance and attachment to Lord Jesus. Remember John 15:5?

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

You cannot simply put Lord Jesus on the side while you "deal" with God's character and motives on your own.

 

[s.i.e.]

will - I'm sorry. I don't think you don't care. As for me thinking you object to my question well, I don't think that you necessarily object to it, no. And at this point, I won't carry any assumptions on how you view the question, and I'm sorry it my prior assumptions were wrong on that.

As for the answer, the simple answer, that it is the Lord Jesus Christ --- you have missed my question. My question is not Him. My question is how can you, or anyone, reconcile the fact that they indeed are ONE (Jesus and the O.T. God), yet they were so drastically different, or at least, so it appears by all measures!

 

[s.i.e.]

You cannot simply put Lord Jesus on the side while you "deal" with God's character and motives on your own.

So, you've told me what I cannot do --- but what can I do? It seems that the only conclusion you would suggest I do is to simply choose to believe, in spite of my questions.

And since I am having problems just accepting that as the answer, you're worn out on me (and trust me, I get why, and I'm not trying to change your mind on that!). Isolation, it seems, becomes a quite reasonable choice here. I truly don't mean to frustrate the crowd.

 

[David777]

Dear s.i.e.

This is a remarkabe statement to make:

"reconcile the fact that they indeed are ONE (Jesus and the O.T. God), yet they were so drastically different, or at least, so it appears by all measures! "

God in the Old Testament and God in the New Testament are the same s.i.e. Jesus created the World out of pure love. Life is given thru love. Jesus Christ is love. God judges with perfect justice.

What you seem to misunderstand is that God chose the stiff necked, rebellious Jews. He did this in love,

"He will love you and bless you and multiply you; He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your new wine and your oil, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock, in the land which He swore to your forefathers to give you." Deuteronomy 7:13

God does not destroy good people as He interacts with the Jews. God destroys evil people, people that would threaten God's redemptive plan for humanity. You seem to under estimate just how wicked mankind can be s.i.e. I recommend reading about the activities of conquering armies in ancient times. Mankind is viscious and destructive. Even Moses was convinced of the wickedness in the Jewish people. Moses was not impressed by their idolatry.

 

[Brighthouse]

This sounds like a very intersting discussion,if I may say this for you to consider.in Genesis 3:8-24 We see God himself walking and talking with both Adam and Eve. But we also Know that God is Spirit!! Hold on to your seats here!!

Since we know that God is Spirit,who was Adam and Eve talking to,and walking with?? They were walking with Jesus!( 1 cor 1:9)they were having fellowship with the physcial presence of God,for as you all know,no one has ever seen God! 1 cor 1:9 GOD is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with HIS SON, Jesus Christ! Now if the debate is that Jesus is not God??Please check out these scriptures and see if this not help you as well. John 5:19-47,John 14:9,John 10:30,and john 8:58 Hope this helps!! blessing to to all!

 

[s.i.e.]

Since we know that God is Spirit,who was Adam and Eve talking to,and walking with?? They were walking with Jesus!( 1 cor 1:9)they were having fellowship with the physcial presence of God,for as you all know,no one has ever seen God! 1 cor 1:9 GOD is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with HIS SON, Jesus Christ! Now if the debate is that Jesus is not God??Please check out these scriptures and see if this not help you as well. John 5:19-47,John 14:9,John 10:30,and john 8:58 Hope this helps!! blessing to to all!

Brighthouse - I'm not sure you can say that Adam and Eve were walking with Jesus. I understand that there is a certain mystery in the trinity, but Jesus wasn't introduced until the N.T., as you know.

Anyways, no, I'm not questioning whether Jesus is God. I'll take Jesus' word as it is stated, that Jesus = God.

At a minimum, I think all Christians would agree that there was a major shift in tactics between the God of the O.T. and the N.T. To me, it seems like such a drastic change in character, that it raises some questions that I think should be obvious but are rarely discussed or addressed in Church'ianity.

That is what I've been trying to understand...and if you are to look at these questions or apparent discrepancies using all that God has given to us (body / soul / spirit), it inevitably brings up the question as to who is God?

This is a remarkabe statement to make:

"reconcile the fact that they indeed are ONE (Jesus and the O.T. God), yet they were so drastically different, or at least, so it appears by all measures! "

I wish I understood what you meant by the word remarkable. Remarkable, as in, profound / observant / interesting / important?

Or, remarkable, as in, asinine / blunt / incredulous / blind?


I'm thinking you're speaking more towards the latter, and if so...well, I'm sorry for disturbing the peace.

thanks all.

 

[Brighthouse]

A major shift,nice!! Highest marks!! I sure do agree. But don't you also believe this was needed as well.As the people of Isreal were so used to lack in Faith? As you have read Jesus said before Abraham I AM,as you also know,there can only be one I AM.( john 8:58)

While Jesus was not named,he is God. There is so much!! I do not know about the Trinity!! To me,God is what he said he is,LOVE.Now love, like kindness can be presented in any form we wish to choose to deliver this from.God choose more then one way to present his love both to his own people( Isreal) and us a well. I think he did this in this way to show us his true soverence.example Jer 33:27 which says Behold I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is there anything to difficult for ME??

I myself would say no.Thanks for your reply.I think you are a most intersting brother Most never can think out of the box,I always enjoy learning myself from another! blessing to you all!

 

[David777]

Yo s.i.e

Within your reply was the following passage.

" At a minimum, I think all Christians would agree that there was a major shift in tactics between the God of the O.T. and the N.T. To me, it seems like such a drastic change in character, that it raises some questions that I think should be obvious but are rarely discussed or addressed in Church'ianity."

Let's examine in detail what you said and see if this is valid. Do all Christians view God in the OT as different from the NT? No, this statement is not true. Paul the apostle for one did not see this, read this passage in Colossians.

<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; WIDTH: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>14</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>15</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>16</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Colossians 1:14-15

So from Paul's letter we see that Jesus created the Heavens and the Earth. All things in fact, invisible and visible, all things s.i.e. In Genesis it says that God created the Heavens and the Earth. Both are the same, consistent, this is the revelation we received in the Bible.

Where is the drastic change in character s.i.e. This misunderstanding is very common among unbelievers. This topic is a very common issue in Christianity, it is not rare as you state.

Perhaps, you are looking at God and thinking how can God manifest Himself in three united ways. Or you look at a miracle and think, how could Jesus heal that person. God is spirit, supernatural, always existed, not flesh and blood. You must resist using rationality in trying to understand God. God has told you that He is not like us, He is from above, we are below. We are darkened in our understanding.

No man can understand God s.i.e. Man can not even understand himself. If you seriously look at God in the OT you will see Jesus. Check the prophecies carefully.

 

[s.i.e.]

David777 -- you are right. I should not have said "all Christians". Of course, this cannot be true...and you are correct to point it out, that this is me, taking my statement too far. I apologize.

As for the Col 1:14-15 verse, those verses to not say, or address, the idea that Got did or didn't employ a "major shift in tactics"...so I'm not sure why you're using that to prove, I guess, your point, which may be - in part - that God had no shift in tactics O.T. vs. N.T.

When it says in vs. 16 that "by him were all things created"...it is referring to "God, the firstborn of every creature"...not Jesus. What is says about Jesus, is that He is the image of the invisible God. We are also made in the image of God.

Anyways, that alone doesn't prove or disprove that "Jesus created Heavens and Earth", as you claim. I don't think we're going to unravel the mystery that is the Trinity here.

As for there being a "drastic change in character"...I'm not claiming one way or another: that is the question I'm exploring, but I have no conclusive or definitive opinion on this, at least not yet.

What is clear to me, however, is there was a drastic change in tactic. I shouldn't say that "ALL" Christians view it as such...but from my perspective, I can't imagine how that isn't obvious...but hey, maybe I live in a smaller camp that I imagine.

As to whether this conversation is rare, or not --- again...that's not my point. It does, however, seem to be a discussion that doesn't seem to take place all that often. It seems to be something that, to the extent it is discussed...it is either quickly put to bed by choosing to believe a certain way, or, not asked much at all. It seems to be a speedbump that is addressed rather quickly so the journey can get underway.

After all...if you have chosen to believe in God, you've probably put-to-bed, the question as to whether He is good. If you are not a believer, you probably never care to ask the question, because you already think He's either not good, or not relevant. etc.


I am seriously looking at God in the O.T. I'm trying to see Jesus in it. Thanks

 

[s.i.e.]

But don't you also believe this was needed as well.As the people of Isreal were so used to lack in Faith?

God choose more then one way to present his love both to his own people( Isreal) and us a well.

hmm...perhaps, Brighthouse. That would make some sense, yes...
thanks