Is Hell just separation from God or a place of horrendous eternal punishment as the Bible states?

[Victor Van Heerden]

God is eternal.
Heaven is eternal.
Hell is eternal.

God doesn’t send people to hell. They reject Christ and end up there. Their choice out of their free will.

Please read this: [BGCOLOR=rgb(60, 64, 71)]https://www.talkjesus.com/threads/eternal-hell.16006/[/BGCOLOR]

No one in his right mind will choose eternal torment in hell by the devil and his demons over eternal bliss in heaven in the arms of loving Saviour Jesus. Think about this for a while. But if it makes you happy and able to bear the fact that God created the largest torture chamber in the universe for the incarceration and punishment of the rebellious devil and the fallen angels, that also just bye the way as an afterthought, will also be filled with billions and billions of human unbelievers some of them dear loved ones, than so be it.

Some of them will be good, kind and caring people like Mother Teresa and Gandhi types where as heaven will be filled with people like mass murderers who became born again Christians after their evil deeds were committed when they repented in prison after responding to an Evangelist sermon. That's called Ostrich faith putting your head in the ground, when danger approaches. Just ignore the bad and focus on the good. God did not send them there they chose to go there. Really! Lol.

Why have children if they could end up in hell while you have fun in heaven. Your fun will not last for long - would it?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

That’s their choice to reject God on Earth. No chance after the first death. God is just, fair, immensely forgiving but people are evil and choose darkness over light.

Are you saying good, kind and caring people that do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and are not under the blood and covering of His righteousness deserve to be in hell and are equal to really evil people? I find that a bit hard to stomach. Why have kids and gran kids if they can end up in hell?

People are not evil as such - they are mentally sick. We know this today. In Jesus day demons were cast out of mentally disturbed people because they knew no better. We do today. We are no longer in the middle ages. Or do you think schizophrenia is as a result of demons?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Who are you replying to? Isa 66 is talking to the millennium, after the tribulation. All the carcasses from the wars. The wicked that never repented and died to God's plagues and wars. There is no 'flesh' in heaven or hell.

In hell and heaven people will have physical flesh and blood resurrected bodies. We know this because the BIBLE says so in

Matthew 10:28

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."


Psalm 21:8-9

"You will capture all your enemies. Your strong right hand will seize all who hate you. You will throw them in a flaming furnace when you appear. The LORD will consume them in his anger; fire will devour them.

Matthew 3:12

"His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Matthew 5:22

"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’will be in danger of the fire of hell."

The Bible does indicate that both believers and non-believers will have resurrected bodies on the last day.

Daniel 12:1–2

" Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."



Revelation 20:14, 15.

" The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.…

Its very clear that according to the Bible those going to hell 1. will be eternally separated from God. 2. and endure the second death which is being cast into the lake of fire to be tormented for eternity.

 

[KingJ]

In hell and heaven people will have physical flesh and blood resurrected bodies. We know this because the BIBLE says so in

Matthew 10:28

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Body is not flesh. Our flesh dies after a hundred years, even with nobody destroying it. Maybe with technology we can extend our lifespan a couple decades. But certainly not for eternity.

 

[KingJ]

No one in his right mind will choose eternal torment in hell by the devil and his demons over eternal bliss in heaven in the arms of loving Saviour Jesus. Think about this for a while.

Two matters to consider:

1. The wicked won't choose Jesus even if there is eternal ''torture'' en route for them. Being in heaven with Jesus and saints is torture in itself. Imagine a pedophile surrounded by children but unable to do anything. Imagine a rapist surrounded by billions and billions of very pretty woman. Now he must wear a smile. Turn the left cheek. Lay his life down for others. Sing hymns all morning. Poor guy.

2. God is not a fool. It is not just ''a choice''. This morning I want to eat eggs and toast VS cereal. Choosing Jesus requires sincere repentance Psalm 51:17. Laying your life down Matt 16:24. Passing God's judgement of heart and mind Jer 17:9-11. Receiving a revelation / Christian faith directly from the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3.

But if it makes you happy and able to bear the fact that God created the largest torture chamber in the universe for the incarceration and punishment of the rebellious devil and the fallen angels, that also just bye the way as an afterthought, will also be filled with billions and billions of human unbelievers some of them dear loved ones, than so be it.

Fortunately for all the wicked, Dante's account of hell is not mentioned anywhere in scripture.

What is mentioned is that ALL God's ways ARE JUST Deut 32:4, God is good Psalm 136:1 and God has no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. There is no part of God that has thoughts of a brazen bull type punishment.

Some of them will be good, kind and caring people like Mother Teresa and Gandhi types where as heaven will be filled with people like mass murderers who became born again Christians after their evil deeds were committed when they repented in prison after responding to an Evangelist sermon. That's called Ostrich faith putting your head in the ground, when danger approaches. Just ignore the bad and focus on the good. God did not send them there they chose to go there. Really! Lol.

There is no chance in hell that someone like Mother Theresa will be in hell LOL. God is not brain dead. Look at how God chose David, Abraham, Moses and all the prophets. They were good people. I have explained this to you in a past post already.

Good people accept Jesus, bad people reject Jesus, that is the verdict John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Why have children if they could end up in hell while you have fun in heaven. Your fun will not last for long - would it?

I can promise you that God loves our children more then we ever will. If God does something, we will all agree with it and commend Him for going a thousand steps further in the direction of love and mercy then be warranted. God is exceedingly good. I have written a hundred posts here on the risk of cherry picking scriptures on hell. The context of who God is needs to be added to them all.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Body is not flesh. Our flesh dies after a hundred years, even with nobody destroying it. Maybe with technology we can extend our lifespan a couple decades. But certainly not for eternity.

Our Lord Jesus had a resurrected body. What kind was that?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

What is mentioned is that ALL God's ways ARE JUST Deut 32:4, God is good Psalm 136:1 and God has no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. There is no part of God that has thoughts of a brazen bull type punishment.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

"What is mentioned is that ALL God's ways ARE JUST"

You believe that God won't allow the evil cretins in hell to suffer eternal torment and torture because he is just. Which is nonsensical because God does not prevent suffering now? Why will he in Hell? All of a sudden He cares about the inhabitants of hell. When He does absolutely nothing now. Really?

God allows people to suffer all the time. God allowed Hitler to murder 6,000,000 Jews - did He not? God allowed Herod to kill hundreds of thousands of children under two years old - did He not ( Matthew 2)?

If God will allow innocent babies to be slaughtered without mercy by blood thirsty soldiers, then why wouldn't He allow a Christ rejecting guilty evil sinner who loves darkness and rejects light, to burn in eternal torture in Hell? Did God not allow Jesus Christ, an innocent and sinless man, the spotless and pure Lamb of God, to be beaten and murdered?

If God will allow His only begotten Son to suffer and be murdered, then why should God save a sinner from Hell's fiery torment, especially when he chooses not to trust Christ as Lord of Lords, King of Kings and our eternal precious Saviour?

Nope God will allow you or anybody to go to HELL and burn for ever in extreme agony IF you are NOT "BORN AGAIN"! ( Jn3:7)

It happens all the time.

The suffering of Hell is horrible. Not only is there physical suffering, but there is also a great deal of MENTAL suffering. You'll always remember your earthly life. You'll remember your family and your friends. You'll remember your spouse and your children. Just as the rich man in Luke 16, you'll remember it all! You'll also remember the chances that you had to be saved.

All sinners go to Hell, and they go there to suffer NOT to have a nice pleasant stay.

 

[KingJ]

"What is mentioned is that ALL God's ways ARE JUST"

You believe that God won't allow the evil cretins in hell to suffer eternal torment and torture because he is just. Which is nonsensical because God does not prevent suffering now? Why will he in Hell? All of a sudden he cares about the inhabitants of hell. When He does absolutely nothing now. Really?

God allows people to suffer all the time. God allowed Hitler to murder 6,000,000 Jews - did He not? God allowed Herod to kill hundreds of thousands of children under two years old - did He not (Matthew 2)?

All evidence of free will. Free will is good. The only way an intelligent creation like a human can have true free will is if God gives them the ability, time and space to exercise it, whether good or bad.

Hitler clearly chose evil. Mother Theresa clearly chose good.

When it comes to hell, it is a completely different matter. God is now behind '''the action''. Not Hitler. Not Stalin. Not Satan. God is good Psalm 136:1. So we can think what a good God would do. What would a good person do? God is better.

What we can grasp and agree with God on is the need to separate those sold out to sin. Those who don't want to repent. Most statements on hell is simply conjecture and some people having bad dreams.

If God will allow innocent babies to be slaughtered without mercy by blood thirsty soldiers, then why wouldn't He allow a Christ rejecting guilty evil sinner who loves darkness and rejects light, to burn in eternal torture in Hell? Did God not allow Jesus Christ, an innocent and sinless man, the spotless and pure Lamb of God, to be beaten and murdered?

Babies and animals dying upsets Him terribly. These people who do this will receive a punishment for it according to Rom 2:6. Jesus was a lamb to the slaughter, correct. God did not want to be given ''special treatment''. Christians are martyred just like Jesus, some worse.

Why will God not do the same or worse? Well because God is good, just and light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

If God will allow His only begotten Son to suffer and be murdered, then why should God save a sinner from Hell's fiery torment, especially when he chooses not to trust Christ as Lord of Lords, King of Kings and our eternal precious Saviour?

God does not save anyone from hell. He saves all who want to be saved from death. Hell speaks to a home for the wicked.

All sinners go to Hell, and they go there to suffer NOT to have a nice pleasant stay.

Conjecture. We are in death right now. Woman scream in childbirth. Men labor for food. Yet we have nice food, fun sporting activities etc etc.

Think about this Victor:

Satan beat and crucified Jesus. What did Jesus do to him? Jesus allowed him to tempt Him on not one but three occasions. Jesus harbored no hatred for Satan. Satan and the fallen angels know hell is coming. If they knew of a hell you are espousing, would they not speak differently to Jesus / God? We don't see this type of speech in scripture. We see God communicate plainly with the devil in Job 1:7 Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan. Satan answered the LORD, "I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that's going on." We see Jesus communicate respectfully and honor the request of demons to be cast into pigs in Matt 8. You need to think of a role reversal with say Nero and a Christian. Imagine a Christian saying to Nero, ''Nero I am going to harass you three times'', Nero would command his guards to arrest you, make your pike longer and blunter, make you suffer for longer. Why are the fallen angels not shouting obscenities and begging for mercy from Jesus? ''Oh God, you are going to make me swallow my tongue, lose my skin over and over, make me walk on nails, have someone tickle my ear for all eternity, you are so cruel, you are so unjust'''. Nope nothing like this is recorded in scripture.

All we have is people cherry picking some scripture and teaching half truths. False prophets. Us and the devil have dark thoughts not God. What part of 1 John 1:5 is confusing? Anyone teaching a message that conflicts with 1 John 1:5 are teaching a non-Christian message. 1 John 1:5 starts with ''the message we have heard from the beginning''.....is that God is light with nor darkness in Him at all.

 

[KingJ]

Our Lord Jesus had a resurrected body. What kind was that?

One that doesn't die. IE It cannot ever be a carcass lying on the floor as per Isa 66.

 

[Curtis]

Who are you replying to? Isa 66 is talking to the millennium, after the tribulation. All the carcasses from the wars. The wicked that never repented and died to God's plagues and wars. There is no 'flesh' in heaven or hell.

"All flesh" is not referring to men still in the flesh, it refers to men were once born of flesh. All flesh is referring to all people who came into this world born of women. How could a person who is still in the flesh see hell and all those who have transgressed against God?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

All evidence of free will. Free will is good.

You do know that the concept of free will is often used in defending Gods lack of intervention in many human events. All that people are saying when they point to free will as to the reason why God never prevents evil on earth is that free will is of greater concern, and more important to God than the exercise of love, caring and kindness. Which is to say that God is immoral. Is he?

I think i will start a new thread on free will.

 

[KingJ]

"All flesh" is not referring to men still in the flesh, it refers to men were once born of flesh. All flesh is referring to all people who came into this world born of women. How could a person who is still in the flesh see hell and all those who have transgressed against God?

Which scripture are you referring to? Isa 66:24? If you read Isa 66:3, all come to worship before the Lord from one sabbath to another. This is in the millennium.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

The only way an intelligent creation like a human can have true free will is if God gives them the ability, time and space to exercise it, whether good or bad.

Giving us free will is like giving a razor blade to a two-year old child. Razor blades can be used for good purposes by people who know how to use them, like scraping off a sticker from a window, or in shaving. That’s because adults know how to use them properly. We could give an adult a razor blade.

We cannot give a 2 year old one, for if we did we would be blamed if that child hurts himself. Just like a younger child should not be given a license to drive, or just like a younger child should not be left unattended at the mall, so also if God gives us responsibilities before we can handle them then he is to be blamed for giving them to us, as in the case of free will.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Ok...So how does this heretical teaching line up with;
Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Where does the Bible indicate that this is just figurative?

Most if not all events and happenings in the Bible were always taken literally till people recently changed their ways through education, embarrassment, conformity etc. There is nothing ambiguous about burning in hell for ever. Lord Jesus believed it and St Paul was motivated NOT by the love of God to save the lost but by the fear of God.

Why because God can put you in hell. If Hell was not too bad a place why preach the gospel to save sinners from entry.

And most revivals began when preachers preached on sin and its consequence in a torturous horror filled hell.

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God | Wikiwand

" Edwards was interrupted many times during the sermon by people moaning and crying out, "What shall I do to be saved?". Although the sermon has received criticism, Edwards' words have endured and are still read to this day. Edwards' sermon continues to be the leading example of a Great Awakening sermon and is still used in religious and academic studies. "

Most of the sermon's text consists of ten "considerations":

1. 1. God may cast wicked men into hell at any given moment.
2. 2. The wicked deserve to be cast into hell. Divine justice does not prevent God from destroying the Wicked at any moment.
3. 3. The wicked, at this moment, suffer under God's condemnation to Hell.
4. 4. The wicked, on earth—at this very moment—suffer a sample of the torments of Hell. The wicked must not think, simply because they are not physically in Hell, that God (in Whose hand the wicked now reside) is not—at this very moment—as angry with them as He is with those miserable creatures He is now tormenting in hell, and who—at this very moment—do feel and bear the fierceness of His wrath.
5. 5. At any moment God shall permit him, Satan stands ready to fall upon the wicked and seize them as his own.
6. 6. If it were not for God's restraints, there are, in the souls of wicked men, hellish principles reigning which, presently, would kindle and flame out into hellfire.
7. 7. Simply because there are not visible means of death before them at any given moment, the wicked should not feel secure.
8. 8. Simply because it is natural to care for oneself or to think that others may care for them, men should not think themselves safe from God's wrath.
9. 9. All that wicked men may do to save themselves from Hell's pains shall afford them nothing if they continue to reject Christ.
10. 10. God has never promised to save us from Hell, except for those contained in Christ through the covenant of Grace.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

am going to defend the second position as I truly have no clue as to how and why so many have gotten away with miss-representing a God who so clearly defines Himself in scripture. 1 John 1:5 The message we have heard from the beginning is that God is light with no darkness in Him at all. God is good Psalm 136:1. We are wicked John 3:19.

Maybe so but that does not eliminate the horror of hell. Only recently have people come to think of hell like you do. Most if not all events and happenings in the Bible were always taken literally till people recently changed their ways through education, embarrassment, conformity etc. There is nothing ambiguous about burning in hell for ever. Lord Jesus believed it and St Paul was motivated NOT by the love of God to save the lost but by the terror / fear of God. Paul preached: "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men." ( 2 Cor. 5:11)

Why because God can put you in hell. If Hell was not too bad a place why preach the gospel to save sinners from entry.

And most revivals began when preachers preached on sin and its consequence in a torturous horror filled hell.

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God | Wikiwand

" Edwards was interrupted many times during the sermon by people moaning and crying out, "What shall I do to be saved?". Although the sermon has received criticism, Edwards' words have endured and are still read to this day. Edwards' sermon continues to be the leading example of a Great Awakening sermon and is still used in religious and academic studies. "

Most of the sermon's text consists of ten "considerations":

1. 1. God may cast wicked men into hell at any given moment.
2. 
   
3. 2. The wicked deserve to be cast into hell. Divine justice does not prevent God from destroying the Wicked at any moment.
4. 
   
5. 3. The wicked, at this moment, suffer under God's condemnation to Hell.
6. 
   
7. 4. The wicked, on earth—at this very moment—suffer a sample of the torments of Hell. The wicked must not think, simply because they are not physically in Hell, that God (in Whose hand the wicked now reside) is not—at this very moment—as angry with them as He is with those miserable creatures He is now tormenting in hell, and who—at this very moment—do feel and bear the fierceness of His wrath.
8. 
   
9. 5. At any moment God shall permit him, Satan stands ready to fall upon the wicked and seize them as his own.
10. 
    
11. 6. If it were not for God's restraints, there are, in the souls of wicked men, hellish principles reigning which, presently, would kindle and flame out into hellfire.
12. 
    
13. 7. Simply because there are not visible means of death before them at any given moment, the wicked should not feel secure.
14. 
    
15. 8. Simply because it is natural to care for oneself or to think that others may care for them, men should not think themselves safe from God's wrath.
16. 
    
17. 9. All that wicked men may do to save themselves from Hell's pains shall afford them nothing if they continue to reject Christ.
18. 
    
19. 10. God has never promised to save us from Hell, except for those contained in Christ through the covenant of Grace

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Our Lord Jesus had a resurrected body. What kind was that?

A NEW Rebuilt Body which the Glory of God runs through our veins instead of blood.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

A NEW Rebuilt Body which the Glory of God runs through our veins instead of blood.

oh?

 

[Sue D.]

One that doesn't die. IE It cannot ever be a carcass lying on the floor as per Isa 66.

A NEW Rebuilt Body which the Glory of God runs through our veins instead of blood.

"A New Rebuilt Body" = a glorified body. Born-again believers -- upon their death -- being united with Jesus Christ -- will have a new, glorified body.


Also -- Jesus Christ was Not murdered by anyone. It Is true that He was crucified on the cross. But He GAVE His life. When the soldiers were making sure all three men were dead, they broke the legs of the two to hasten their deaths -- but found that Christ was already dead. He stated "It if finished" and He gave up His life.

 

[Sue D.]

oh?

Post 98 -- "runs through our veins instead of blood" ?????? The instead of blood - part. ???