Jesus

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Thanks hekuran for ur patience and ur logical explanation
Ok then these four verses are kind of obscure and we can't really conclude something solid from them
And we agree that these words are are the words of John not Jesus

Maybe when we read more in the bible we will get to understand more what is meant by these four verses

Ok hekuran I think that we agree together at this point
But before we go on I just want to comment on something
These verses seem to contradict each other in my opinion
The first verse state that in the beginning was the word
This gives us the impression that the very first thing that existed was the word
But then the next verse "and the word was with god" contradicts it as it indicates that God was already present and the word was with him
Then how was the word the first thing then?!!
Then the last verse really made a huge confusion
It says and the word is God
Really this made the whole verse of no sense
To make myself more clear, the verse says and the word is god. So lets replace "word" with "god"
Then the verse will be:
At the beginning was god
And god was with god
And god is god

I really can't understand what does it mean
So can u explain it?!!

 

[Hekuran]

At the beginning was god
And god was with god
And god is god​

You are swimming in deep water here! These verses are maybe the most dense and rich passage in the whole Bible.

You make some very insightful observations, and I am sure that you are asking the kinds of questions that the text was written to provoke. I am hesitant to offer you any answers of my own because I am sure that the picture will become clearer as we read on in the gospel.

Just an note on the three statements you made. All are in keeping with the Christian gospel. Two of them - in the beginning was god, and god is god - are in line with Muslim belief. The second one only "god was with god" is difficult. Is that correct?

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Well muslims believe that in beginning was god
The verse and god is god has no sense in my opinion
Anyway lets move on, maybe as we move on it will come clearer

Ok let's move on with the next verses if u like

 

[Chad]

Ham,

I'd like you to take a moment to check out some links:

Islam | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Answers in Genesis - Creation, Evolution, Christian Apologetics

Also, if you want proof that the Bible is the genuine, infallible Word of the Holy GOD, check out our forum here:

Evidence & Bible Prophecy - Talk Jesus | Christian Forums

Check out the Sticky Threads there. Those are proof of prophecy fulfilled as mentioned in the Holy Bible.

Does your quaran have such prophecy fulfilled? NO.
Does Islam offer a loving Savior who died for your sins? NO.
Does your "god" talk to you, have a personal relationship with, love you? NO.

 

[Property Of God]

I'm still waiting for your explanation for those 2 contradictions... You haven't explained them yet. Does this mean you have no explanation for them?

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

I'm still waiting for your explanation for those 2 contradictions... You haven't explained them yet. Does this mean you have no explanation for them?

It means that I want to focus on the topic we are discussing here and I don't want to waste the time in side topics

And I think that "hekuran" and "will" have answered u
If u want to ask about islam and u r really serious about understanding do as I did, visit an Islamic forum and ask them their
I wanted to ask about Christianity so I visited a Christian forum and asked
U have to do the same

And I can't understand why r u and Chad insisting to turn the conversation into an Islamic discussion
This is a Christian forum, and we are in the bible study hall, it is a place for asking about and discussing Christianity, so why r u insisting on discussing islam?!!
Is it a kind of escape cause u r not sure about your understanding for ur religion?!!

Anyway I am waiting for "hekuran" and " will"(and ofcourse anyone else who is willing to share us) to continue our gospel discussion

 

[jiggyfly]

Good point hamza, I think this thread is more suitable to the seeking Jesus forum so I moved it there.

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

As u like jiggyfly
But I hope u will share us in our discussion
So if u want to move with the next verses it will be of my pleasure

 

[Hekuran]

OK Hammmzzzaaa, Here's the next batch. Would really like to know what you make of it.

Just a couple of reading points. John the Baptist is not the same as the John who is the author of this gospel. And John the Baptist refers back to the prophet Isaiah. You can find that in Isaiah 40.

Really, I'd prefer you to set the pace. I am not sure if this is going too fast for you, or too slow. I am not sure if I have quoted too big a chunk of text to deal with.

And do you have access to a copy of the Bible? If that is difficult then there are versions available on the internet, but I find it easier to read with a book in my hand.

Anyway, over to you...

John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'

From the fulness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, I am not the Christ. They asked him, Then who are you? Are you Elijah? He said, I am not. Are you the Prophet? He answered, No. Finally they said, Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?

John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'

Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, Why then do you baptise if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?

I baptise with water, John replied, but among you stands one you do not know. He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.

This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptising.

The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'

I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptising with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.

Then John gave this testimony: I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptise with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptise with the Holy Spirit.'

I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.​

 

[jiggyfly]

As u like jiggyfly
But I hope u will share us in our discussion
So if u want to move with the next verses it will be of my pleasure

Nah, I am not interested in discussing religion of any kind, busy with others at the moment, but if you decide that you want to meet Jesus just ask Him. :wink:

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

ok "hekuran" lets move on

first lets take first the followin verses:
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'

From the fulness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

tell me hekuran, do u have any comments on these four verses?

 

[Property Of God]

Oh don't worry about answering my contradictions, you answered them by not answering, so thank you honestly, you made my day!

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Oh don't worry about answering my contradictions, you answered them by not answering, so thank you honestly, you made my day!

No comment

 

[AbbysAunt]

Yes, I do believe that Jesus Is God and I believe and know this to be true because My Jesus said so in the bible.

John10:25-30 Jesus answered them,"I told you and you do not believe." The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; niether shall anyone snatch them out of My Hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and noone is able to snatch them from out of My Father's Hand.

now watch and listen to what Jesus says here in verse 30

John10:30 I and My Father are one.

In these verses Jesus talks about His followers and How they will not be snatched from Him His hand and He also mentioned the same thing about the Father saying " We shall not be snatched From His Hand" then He goes on to say " I and My Father are One". To know Jesus you have to know the Father and to know the Father you must know the Son(Jesus) because they are one....The reason He mentions His own hand and then The Father's hand is because He was letting it be known That the Hand of God Was His Hand as well and Then He plainly states it " He and The Father are One"...to know The Father you must know the Son and to know the Son you must first know the Father because they are of each other and are one.

I've heard this description used before and didn't fully understand it till I came back to My Lord Jesus and He had me think upon it for a very long time. The example used is that of an egg...does an egg have three parts? the answer is yes it does but those three parts make a whole egg...you can't have an egg without the white, yolk or the shell you must have all three parts to make that egg...that is how it is with the God head...The Father, Son and The Holy Spirit...together they are a whole and you can't have one without the other..just as you can't have an egg without all three parts so you cannot have the God head without all three divine parts because together they make a Whole or One...They are God given to us in first the form of a Savior who would come to the earth shed His blood so it covers us and our sin then He died and rose again over coming death so that not only are we forgiven but now we also have
eternal life forever! Then there is the Holy Spirit that part of God that was given as a helper, teacher and instructor. Together all three form one being which is God in Heaven.
You couldn't have the other two without Him...Just as you couldn't have an egg if you were missing a part of it.

I do hope and pray that each person who does not know Jesus will come to Him and get to know Him...its the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me and im so glad I made the choice to make Him Lord and Savior over my Life. Can't imagine Life without My Jesus.

God bless you and keep you now and always.

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Thanks "AbbysAunt" for sharing in this topic.
I hope you will join us more

we r readin John's Gospel and analysing it, to see if it emphysizes the consept that jesus is God or just a prophet, so please oin us

if u have any comments on these verses please share them with us
the verses are:
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'

From the fulness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

and i am waiting for u "hekuran" to see ur comments

 

[Brighthouse]

Matt 16:16-20!!!! AbbysAunt could not have spoken more in the Lord then I could of in a response!! Praise the Lord!! highest marks Wendy! 3 in one,even as we are 3 in one IN HIM! Colossians 1:26-29!!! amen!

 

[will]

Thanks hekuran for ur patience and ur logical explanation
Ok then these four verses are kind of obscure and we can't really conclude something solid from them

Hamza,
Not so fast. How can we just conveniently skip something as important as this.
Your question was: Is Jesus God.
According to these verses, He is. If you don't think so, you have to tell me who is this referred to as "The Word" then?

And we agree that these words are are the words of John not Jesus

That is okay, if these were Jesus' own word, then you probably said, but this is His own words. Either way it will not affect our interpretation if we already close our mind.

Maybe when we read more in the bible we will get to understand more what is meant by these four verses

Ok hekuran I think that we agree together at this point
But before we go on I just want to comment on something
These verses seem to contradict each other in my opinion
The first verse state that in the beginning was the word
This gives us the impression that the very first thing that existed was the word
But then the next verse "and the word was with god" contradicts it as it indicates that God was already present and the word was with him
Then how was the word the first thing then?!!
Then the last verse really made a huge confusion
It says and the word is God
Really this made the whole verse of no sense
To make myself more clear, the verse says and the word is god. So lets replace "word" with "god"
Then the verse will be:
At the beginning was god
And god was with god
And god is god

I really can't understand what does it mean
So can u explain it?!!

Hamza, I think you have provided a very good way to interpret the verses yourself. Your substitution of the word "Word" with "God" really shows the verses' consistency:

At the beginning was god
And god was with god
And god is god

Think about it. God is God. Only one God, in the beginning. The one who is referred to as the Word, is God.

Now, let's observe what else was mentioned about this person referred to as "The Word"

Starting from John 1:3-13 we find:
- Through Him (The Word) all things were made
- In Him (The Word) is the life, which is the light of all mankind who overcomes the darkness (in mankind's heart)
- God sent John (the Baptist) to testify about His (The Word = The Light) coming
- The light (= The Word) came to the world, He is in the world
- The world do not recognize Him (The Word)
- He (The Word) came to His own (Jewish people), yet his own did not received Him
- So to those who believe in His (The Word) *name*, He gave the right to be the children of God
- Not of natural descent, or human will, but born of God (this later is revealed by Jesus to be the Spiritual birth)

All of these points to the ministry of Jesus in His humanity. Unless you can tell me who else can be The Word and fulfill all of the above statements.

 

[will]

ok "hekuran" lets move on

first lets take first the followin verses:
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'

From the fulness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

tell me hekuran, do u have any comments on these four verses?

I'm sure Hekuran does not mind if I give it a go first .

The first part is easy. John The Baptist's sole mission is to proclaim and testify about Jesus Christ. In that first sentence, John The Baptist acknowledged that Jesus Christ (who was his relative, by the way, and they are six month apart in age) has surpasses him. And more importantly he said why: because He (Jesus Christ) was before me.

If we follow the consistent revelation from the previous verses that The Word = Jesus Christ, and the Word is God, then we will have no problem interpreting this verse at all.

The second part (beginning with vers 16) requires a pre-knowledge of the concept of Grace, and its distinction from the Law. The Jewish people to whom John The Baptist was teaching, is very familiar with the Laws of God, given to Moses. But the concept of Grace and truth which is necessary for anyone to fulfill the Law, escapes them.

That is why John The Baptist must clarify, that the Law comes from Moses, but Grace and Truth that is enough to fulfill the law, can only come from Jesus Christ because He is the only one who can live a life of righteousness that can satisfy the Law of God

The third part (verse 18) is another allusion to the fact that He who was begotten from God, and was at the bosom of the Father (hence the concept of Son of God), is unique, I take this to refer to the fact that He is both man and God. 'He' here of course points to Jesus Christ again.

What do you think of these verses, Hamza?

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Ok will as u wish
Let us discuss these verses
First tell me from which verse from these verses did u conclude that Jesus is the word

 

[Hekuran]

It does not come out in a single verse, but by understanding the flow of the whole passage. The claims so far...

• The Word was from the beginning, is God, was with God, and all things were created through him. (verses 1,2 and 3)
• Life, which is the light of men, was in the Word. (verse 4)
• John the Baptist was sent from God to testify to that light. (v6-9)
• The word became flesh and lived among us, revealing the glory of the Father, full of grace and truth. (v14)
• John the Baptist says that the Word surpasses him, because "he was before me". (v15)
• Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (17)
• John the Baptist denies being the Christ: his work is to prepare the way for the Lord. (v23)

From this, everything is pointing toward Jesus being the Word.