Jesus

[james g]

1. Christians believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, so we cannot say that there is a distinction between Jesus and God. We believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.
   1. John 1:1-3 states: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
   2. John 1:14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
2. As Christians we do see Moses and Abraham as great men whom God used to make known His will to mankind, but they both sinned and both died, so we do not see them as divine in any way or as being equal to Jesus.
   1. Abraham and Moses both sinned and were not perfect.
      1. Abraham lied to Pharaoh in Egypt about Sarai being his wife in Genesis 12:10-20.
      2. Abraham again lied in Genesis 20 about Sarai being his sister instead of his wife.
      3. Moses murdered an Egyptian in Exodus 2:11-22 and had to flee Egypt.
      4. Moses was excluded from the promised land because he struck the rock instead of speaking to it to extract water. Numbers 20:1-13; Numbers 27:12-14 and Deuteronomy 32:51.
      5. Jesus was sinless. 2 Corinthians 5:21 states: “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
   2. Abraham and Moses both died, but were not resurrected back to life like Jesus was.
      1. Abraham died and was buried with Sarah. Genesis 25:7-11
      2. Moses also faced death. Deuteronomy 34
      3. Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Luke 24:5-6; John 2:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 are just a few of the passages in the Bible that show that Jesus rose from the dead.
3. We do not see Buddha, Muhammad, or any other of the prophets of other religions as being a prophet from God or being God. We see them as being normal human beings who are in need of a Savior.
   1. These various prophets all died physically and were not physically resurrected.
      1. Muhammad died in 632 A.D.
      2. There are some various dates for the death of the historical Buddha, Siddhartha Guatama. Some would say that he died in 486 B.C. Some report his death in 483 B.C. Some would even suggest a revised date of death in 410 B.C.
      3. The traditional birth of Zoroaster is in 17th Century B.C., but there is debate about this issue. It is also believed that he died around the age of 77.
      4. Baha’u’llah passed away on May 29th, 1892.
   2. Jesus physically died, but also was also physically raised from the dead.
      1. Luke 24:5-6: “And as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them ‘Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen.’”
      2. 1 Corinthians 15:3-8: “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.”
      3. John 20:24-29 shows us that Thomas actually saw and touched the wounds of Christ. This shows that Jesus physically rose in the same body that He died in.
      4. Jesus broke bread and gave it to two disciples on the Road to Emmaus in Luke 24:13-35. The disciples saw and heard Jesus on this encounter, and it is very possible that he ate with them on this encounter.
      5. Luke 24:36-49 shows us that Jesus actually ate a piece of fish. Verses 42-43 states: “And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.” How can someone who is not in a physical body eat?
      6. John 21:12-14 states: “Jesus said to them, ‘Come and have breakfast.’ None of the disciples ventured to question Him, ‘Who are You?’ knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus came and took the break, and gave them, and the fish likewise. This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after He was raised from the dead.” It is implied here that Jesus ate with them. At the very least they saw and conversed with Jesus.

The Qur'an confirms this in its own way:
1. He was born of a virgin (Sura 19:16-35).
2. He was the Messiah (Sura 4:171).
3. He was a Spirit from God (Sura 4:171).
4. He was the Word of God (Sura 4:171).
5. He was sinless (Sura 19:19).
6. He is illustrious in the world and the hereafter (Sura 3:45).
7. He could give life to the dead (Sura 3:49 with Sura 22:73).
8. He was taken to heaven by God (Sura 4:158).
9. He will come back as a sign of the Hour of Judgement (Sura 43:61).

 

[Property Of God]

Hamazaa, I can't believe you're still here on this forum, you're not even seeking Christ whatsoever. I hope you get blocked soon. I'm sorry but I'm just brutally honest and I'm not here to be your BFF and tell you what an amazing person you are. I'm not a politician and I'm not an angel, and not all roads lead to Rome.

 

[Hekuran]

Hi Hammmzzzaaa. Yes I get your point.

I think the way you put it draws attention to the bigger question, which is not can God be a prophet, but can God be born as a human, and live on earth among us.

This is one of the cornerstones of the Christian faith that I have lived by for the past 20 years: we know what God is like, because he lived among us as a man.

Do you agree that what we have read so far in John's gospel clearly indicates this?

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Do you agree that what we have read so far in John's gospel clearly indicates this?

indicates what?? i can't understand what u mean?

 

[Hekuran]

Sorry. Do you agree that the opening of John's Gospel makes the claim that Jesus is God made flesh?

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Sorry. Do you agree that the opening of John's Gospel makes the claim that Jesus is God made flesh?

well i really don't want to have a lot of arguement on that point, for as i told u that the opening of the gospel contains many vague sentences.

but let us agree on something.
all these verses are the words of john not jesus, we can say that john, the writer of the bible believes in that

but let us ask ourselves something, from where did john know this??
no way he should have known this except if jesus himself told him.

so did jesus say he is God?? did he say that he is God in flesh??

this is the question we are trying to find its answer by reading the gospel.

and as i told u in the beginning, we want to find out who is jesus from his biography, from his words, from his life and actions, not from what others believed he is.

 

[Dreamer]

well i really don't want to have a lot of arguement on that point, for as i told u that the opening of the gospel contains many vague sentences.

but let us agree on something.
all these verses are the words of john not jesus, we can say that john, the writer of the bible believes in that

but let us ask ourselves something, from where did john know this??
no way he should have known this except if jesus himself told him.

so did jesus say he is God?? did he say that he is God in flesh??

this is the question we are trying to find its answer by reading the gospel.

and as i told u in the beginning, we want to find out who is jesus from his biography, from his words, from his life and actions, not from what others believed he is.

John is not the writer of the bible. He is the writer of the book (gospel of John) in the New Testament. Many men were given words by God. God is the author of the bible. He gave the words to man.

You ask a good question: Where did John know this? You said, "no way he should have known this except if Jesus himself told him." The Holy Spirit speaks for Jesus, and speaks to us today through God's Word.

You ask good questions and have good points. Glad you are here.

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

You ask good questions and have good points. Glad you are here.

Thank you, and i hope you will join us in our discussion

So if everyone is done with the verses we discussed then let's move on to the following verses, Verses 19 to 24

 

[Hekuran]

Perhaps the final statement of this passage needs to be looked at too.

john 1:18

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Perhaps the final statement of this passage needs to be looked at too.

john 1:18

so can u tell me your comments on this verse?

 

[Hekuran]

It is another statement about the unity of the Father and the Son: Jesus - as God made flesh - is the perfect revelation of God.

We cannot see God, but God has been shown to us in Jesus.

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

It is another statement about the unity of the Father and the Son: Jesus - as God made flesh - is the perfect revelation of God.

We cannot see God, but God has been shown to us in Jesus.

Well I really can't understand how did u reach this conclusion
Well let us discuss the verse
The part says "no one has ever seen god"
If we ask ourselves why, we will find the answer in exodus 30:*20And He said, "Thou canst not see My face, for there shall no man see Me and live."
So this actually proves that Jesus can't be god, cause no one can see god's face and lives, and ofcourse this didn't happen with jesus

The next part "the only God,*who is at the Father's side,*he has made him known. (ESV)"
This part actually made a lot of confusion
Is there one god or 2?!!
This verse says that there is one god that has never been seen, and another god who has made him known
And who is the father whom the god is at his side, is he god or no? And of he is god, is he a third one?!!!

Actually hekuran, I believe that this verse doesn't differ from the vague verses we read at the beginning of this chapter

 

[james g]

the greatness of God's glory is beyond human conception, and never was seen by human beings. Yet the only begotten Son has in this world declared God. For He Himself is in the bosom of the Father. Only begotten speaks, not of His being derived, but of His unique, eternal dignity with the Father from eternity past. He has always been in the bosom of the Father. Only One who is Himself eternally God could possibly declare the eternal God.

 

[jiggyfly]

I like this scripture.

You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, [fn] he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges [fn]; he took the humble position of a slave [fn] and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, [fn] he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal's death on a cross. Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

well "james g" and "jiggyfly" i just want to remind u that we are reading the bible verse by verse and discussing it
we reached the verse :no one has ever seen god the only God,*who is at the Father's side,*he has made him known

hekuran said that this verse is talking about the unity of the Father and the Son: Jesus - as God made flesh - is the perfect revelation of God

my question is how did he conclude this from this verse

i am not asking about the christian faith, i am asking how did ge conclude this from the verse

and the question is still for u hekuran

 

[james g]

<DIR>Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
the greatness of God's glory is beyond human conception, and never was seen by human beings. Yet the only begotten Son has in this world declared God. For He Himself is in the bosom of the Father. Only begotten speaks, not of His being derived, but of His unique, eternal dignity with the Father from eternity past. He has always been in the bosom of the Father. Only One who is Himself eternally God could possibly declare the eternal God.
</DIR>

 

[jiggyfly]

well "james g" and "jiggyfly" i just want to remind u that we are reading the bible verse by verse and discussing it
we reached the verse :no one has ever seen god the only God,*who is at the Father's side,*he has made him known

hekuran said that this verse is talking about the unity of the Father and the Son: Jesus - as God made flesh - is the perfect revelation of God

my question is how did he conclude this from this verse

i am not asking about the christian faith, i am asking how did ge conclude this from the verse

and the question is still for u hekuran

I'm going to be frank with you Hamza, it seems that you are more interested in discussing and comparing religions than you are learning and seeking Jesus the Christ.

I view this thread as fruitless and question the fruitfulness of your presence here at TJ.

Seek out an experience with Jesus the Christ and one and only Son of God and then the meaning of these scriptures will begin to make sense to you and you will know the Truth.

 

[AbbysAunt]

Jesus is the Son of God...that is the 100% truth plain and simple.

Luke1:26-35 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. the virgin's name was Mary. and having come in, the angel said to her,"Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women"

But when she saw him she was troubled at his saying and considered what manner of greeting this was. The the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary for you have found favor with God. And behold you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a son and shall call His name Jesus. He will be great and wll be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house
of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.

Then Mary said to the angel, " How can this be, since I do not know a man?" And the angel answered and said to her, " The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; there also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called The Son Of God.

Did you see that my friend...in the above verses of the bible That the baby Mary was carrying was to be called Jesus and then she is told He would be the Son of God...plain and simple...The Holy Spirit(which is a part of God) came upon her and then God Himself overshadowed her and she became with child..not just any child but what the angel told her was this child would be called The Son of God.

 

[Hekuran]

Yes you are right to call me out on this one. We agreed to read verse-by-verse, and what I have concluded depends on bits of John's Gospel (chapters 5 and 10) that we have not yet read. I would be happy to wait until we reach those parts of the text to discuss your questions in detail. Is that OK for you?

You are absolutely right to pick up on the story of Moses being shielded from the glory of God. I am sure that was in John's mind as he wrote and also would have been very familiar to his original audience.

I'll try a summary of what the passage has said so far

God, the Word, has entered the world and lived as a man. Through him God is made known, and we have received blessings and the right to be called children of God.

Does that seem a reasonable way to sum up the main points? If not, I'd welcome any improvements you have.

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

God, the Word, has entered the world and lived as a man. Through him God is made known, and we have received blessings and the right to be called children of God.

well hekuran, actually i don't pretty much agree on these points, as i told you that there are many obscure verses, and in my opinion that non of these points u concluded was stated directly and frankly in the passage till now.

but i can agree with u if u say that even if these points u concluded were expressed in the passage, the passage till now is john's words, and we still need an approval from jesus on these points.

do u agree with me on that?