Rhema
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Lazarus and the Rich man...
- Thread starter DieAmartyr
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Beetow
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I strenuously disagree! My thoughts and my curiosity have been tremendously
stimulated by some of Rhema's remarks.
For example: one that caught me completely by surprise is the number of times in
the New Testament that the Greek word rhema (hray'-mah) is employed in the phrase
"the word of God". I honestly believed that logos (log'-os) had a lock on that phrase.
Now I'm going to have to re-think a few things that up till now I've taken for granted.
_
Rhema
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Try Ephesians 6:17. That one twirled my head too when I first read it. (And it's also the Biblical definition for RHEMA.)
Rhema
And you'll definitely have fun with Romans 10:17
Thank you.
And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
(Matthew 13:57 KJV)
Beetow
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From the little I've discovered thus far, logos and rhema are somewhat
interchangeable, sort of like a revolver chambered for .357 magnum will also
handle .38 special, but they're not identical-- the difference between them is
subtle and not all that easy to explain; just as the difference between voice and
speech is not all that easy to explain.
Were someone to hear me humming the melody to Credence Clear Water Revival's
"Proud Mary" they would hear my voice but nothing spoken. Should I then begin
singing aloud the lyrics, then they would hear me speaking too.
As a rough-hewn rule of thumb: rhema is equivalent to speech, whereas logos is
equivalent to voice, and the difference is actually pretty amazing; for example:
» God said: Let there be light. «
"God said" is voice whereas "let there be light" is speech. Very subtle; and when it's
applied to John 1:1-3 we see that it was actually God's voice that powered the
creation of the cosmos rather than His words. Here's some examples of how that
plays out.
• John 1:1 . . In the beginning was the Voice, and the Voice was with God, and the
Voice was God.
• John 1:14 . . And the Voice was made flesh, and dwelt among us
• 1John 1:1 . .That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we
have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled,
of the Voice of life
• 2Pet 3:5 . . By the Voice of God the heavens were of old
Please don't ask me how God's voice is a sentient being because it is just too far
beyond the capability of my below-average IQ to comprehend. I can understand
how a person can be sentient but I cannot understand how someone's voice can be
when the human voice is just noise; and the moment it speaks words, they fade
away to nothing and can't be recalled with any more ease than recalling the ring of
a bell or the toot of a horn, i.e. spoken human words are DOA (dead on arrival) and
that's because the human voice isn't a sentient being.
(You should probably keep these comments under your hat because were you to go
around saying that God's voice is just as much a person as Himself, you'll likely be
written off as a kook)
Anyway; both Rom 10:17 and Ehp 6:17 utilize rhema which, according to the
rough-hewn rule of thumb above, is speech, i.e. words; for example:
• John 6:68 . . Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
• Luke 5:5 . . Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing:
nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
The Lord's "words" in both those verses are rhema, i.e. spoken words.
BTW: John Fogerty and Wynonna Judd perform a really nice duet of Proud Mary on
YouTube
_
You don't trust much scripture and you totally missed the context of the Revelation passage which was pretty clear.
Obviously you don't care at all for Baptist people.
The Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she conceived. She gave birth to the baby Jesus / God In carnate
You said that the only sane conclusion is that Revelation can't be trusted. Well toYou. It is part of God's Word and the first few verses say that those to read it will be blessed.
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complete
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Subject Heading:- 'Lazarus and the Rich Man'
Your thread has been well and truly derailed, hasn't it?
There was a certain rich man,
.. which was clothed in purple and fine linen,
.... and fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,
.. which was laid at his gate,
.... full of sores,
...... and desiring to be fed
........ with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:
.......... moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
............ And it came to pass, that the beggar died,
.............. and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
the rich man also died, and was buried;
.. And in hell he lift up his eyes,
.... being in torments,
...... and seeth Abraham afar off,
........ and Lazarus in his bosom.
.......... And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me,
............ and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water,
.............. and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember
.. that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things,
.... and likewise Lazarus evil things:
...... but now he is comforted,
........ and thou art tormented.
.......... And beside all this,
............ between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
.............. so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
................ neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father,
.. that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
.... I have five brethren;
...... that he may testify unto them,
........ lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him,
.. They have Moses and the prophets;
.... let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham:
.. but if one went unto them from the dead,
.... they will repent.
And he said unto him,
.. If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
.... neither will they be persuaded,
...... though one rose from the dead.'
(Luke 16:19-31)
* The Lord would not have told this as a true story, for so much within it is contrary to the testimony of the word of God. The Lord Jesus Christ only spoke
the words given to Him by God, and God would not contradict Himself by speaking words which made the rest of His written word into a lie.
* No! It is spoken to show the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and the doctrines that they taught. They put their own teachings above what is written in God's
Word. It is not without reason that the Lord warned against the doctrine of the Pharisees, with the use of the word, 'Beware'!!
* They believed that the dead can communicate with the living, whereas the testimony of Scripture is that the dead know nothing, and are silent in the grave.
* The Pharisees justified their inaction on the behalf of the poor and needy, but assuring them that they would receive their reward in the life to come.
There is much that could be said, with proof texts attached but it is too late at night here for that now.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hello @DieAmartyr,
Your thread has been well and truly derailed, hasn't it?
There was a certain rich man,
.. which was clothed in purple and fine linen,
.... and fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,
.. which was laid at his gate,
.... full of sores,
...... and desiring to be fed
........ with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:
.......... moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
............ And it came to pass, that the beggar died,
.............. and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
the rich man also died, and was buried;
.. And in hell he lift up his eyes,
.... being in torments,
...... and seeth Abraham afar off,
........ and Lazarus in his bosom.
.......... And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me,
............ and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water,
.............. and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember
.. that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things,
.... and likewise Lazarus evil things:
...... but now he is comforted,
........ and thou art tormented.
.......... And beside all this,
............ between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
.............. so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
................ neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father,
.. that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
.... I have five brethren;
...... that he may testify unto them,
........ lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him,
.. They have Moses and the prophets;
.... let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham:
.. but if one went unto them from the dead,
.... they will repent.
And he said unto him,
.. If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
.... neither will they be persuaded,
...... though one rose from the dead.'
(Luke 16:19-31)
* The Lord would not have told this as a true story, for so much within it is contrary to the testimony of the word of God. The Lord Jesus Christ only spoke
the words given to Him by God, and God would not contradict Himself by speaking words which made the rest of His written word into a lie.
* No! It is spoken to show the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and the doctrines that they taught. They put their own teachings above what is written in God's
Word. It is not without reason that the Lord warned against the doctrine of the Pharisees, with the use of the word, 'Beware'!!
* They believed that the dead can communicate with the living, whereas the testimony of Scripture is that the dead know nothing, and are silent in the grave.
* The Pharisees justified their inaction on the behalf of the poor and needy, but assuring them that they would receive their reward in the life to come.
There is much that could be said, with proof texts attached but it is too late at night here for that now.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Okay so what's your point you're trying to get across?
Rhema
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Again, work through Ephesians 6:17 - it provides the definition of Rhema.
And also think about what Paul was trying to convey when using the word Rhema in Romans 10:17.
It's more a difference between speech and the meaning contained within one's speech.
Rhema is the voice of God - the speaking of the Holy Spirit. Logos is more equivalent to the logic - the pattern - the meaning that spoken words convey.
Your humming would be φωνή (mere sound).
My own "rough-hewn" rule of thumb is LOGOS - Pattern and RHEMA - Voice (to imply that which was spoken).
John 1:1a .. The Pattern was suffused throughout the cosmic protoplasm...
Again RHEMA is LOGOS vocalized, and as such better represented by VOICE.
Where you've written "VOICE" for LOGOS, I'd suggest "PATTERN" (or LOGIC - the understanding of purpose).
For Luke 5:5 wouldn't you think "at thy command" to(a spoken utterance that conveys a logic of behaviour)?
In Romans 10, just what "speaking" do you think Paul was talking about if not Acts 9? (The event wherein he was spoken to?)
So bonus question ... (honor system that you don't look up the answer first).
Where exactly was Moses when God first gave the 10 Commandments?
And how were they first given?
Rhema
Rhema
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Sue, Revelation is not in the Bible (at least ours). And the text states quite clearly that there are three places wherein there are dead.
Well that's a "good one" - coming from someone who doesn't trust the New Testament definitions of Word(LOGOS) of God and Word(RHEMA) of God.
What I trust is Truth, and the Truth is that when you read the word "Scripture" in the New Testament it means the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible); and more specifically the Septuagint (LXX) since most all of the quotes from the OT in the NT are word for word from the LXX.
On the contrary; I care very deeply for the Baptist people or I wouldn't grieve for all the silly beliefs they've been taught.
This belief that God did not father Jesus Christ is actually a new one for me, but I'll readily admit that I've had no interaction with the Baptist churches for about ten years.
And this claim?
Please, I beg of you. Call your pastor, tell him what you wrote. Get back to me. Truly I am gobsmacked that such a teaching could come through a Baptist church.
Indeed, many believers are not sane, and wind up believing all sorts of crap.
You do realize that "... Well to You" isn't a sane reply ?? It's the verbal equivalent of sticking out your tongue, and I shan't do this to you.
No it isn't. Now if you mean it's part of your Bible, okay. I get that. But it's not part of our Bible, as protected by Thomas the Apostle. The Bible you have was given to you by Roman Catholic Bishops long after the death of all the Twelve, and you still have yet to address the problems with this. (Allow me to repeat...)
What I have asked you to consider is WHO compiled those books, telling you that these were the ones chosen by God ?? And this "who" would be the Bishops of the Catholic Church in the late 300's. What I don't understand is how one can believe that God would ensure that the Catholics would select the "right" books for the Bible, when God wouldn't ensure that these very same Catholics could teach a true message of salvation? As if God was more interested in writing a book than in saving souls. And if so, why didn't Jesus write anything or command anything to be written down? (The answer to that is found in Acts chapter 2.)
God's Word(LOGOS) is Jesus, not the Bible. God's Word(RHEMA) is that which the Holy Spirit Speaks. Neither definition includes the Bible as "God's Word". It's that simple. If you define "God's Word" to mean something OTHER than what the Bible defines it to be, you start changing meanings and cannot help but wind up in heresy.
As if the author couldn't possibly have a hidden motive to say that ....
Rhema
(How rude to say such a thing !!)
.
I am not a coward -_-
Rhema
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Why would I think that information I've spent time to ensure was correct isn't correct ?? That makes no sense.
If it was, you could post what is "off," and WHY... but you don't. That says a lot. You're just unable to adequately address the topics and are left with ad hominen and hurt feelings. I don't think by feelings. (You may wish to get healed of that.)
Wrong again. I'm not Jewish, and as I've stated before, my biological father was a Nazi SS General, so ... nope... way not Jewish. besides, how would you know? You've directly stated that you've never met a Jew.
Where have I not ?? What "context" have I violated ?? Address the content of the issues I've raised, and stop getting your nose bent out of shape.
See ?? Bent nose.
Of course they do.... that's why they executed Jesus.... Duh....
Rhema
I would offer. .
Then you have a different teaching authority and no closing Chapter . Why not Revelation?
There is one place wherein there are dead never to rise to new life . The dust from which mankind was formed . His temporal spirit given under the letter of the law "death". . . "Thou shall not or you will surely die and not rise to new spirit life" , it returns to the father who gave it .
Those who by faith have been given a new incorruptible spirt that will never die .they alone will rise on the last day under the Sun and receive the propmised new incorruptible bodies.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Rhema
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I didn't say that you were a coward. PLEASE... I beg you to read what I actually wrote. Here it is again:
Since you're not a coward, I expect you then to craft a well written post that describes your concerns and explains where I'm wrong.
Kindly,
Rhema
(How is that not reasonable ??)
