Limited atonement !

[Butch5]

Hows that when I started this thread with my points provided ?

Because you just posted a few passages out of context. Anyone can make a claim, grab a few Bible verses and say the Bible teaches xyz. But, that doesn't mean the claim is accurate. We see all different kinds of claims being made from the Bible. Obviously they can't all be correct. Therefore a lot of people are wrong. Thus, just grabbing a few verses of Scripture and saying the Bibles teaches xyz isn't a valid method of interpreting the Bible. It requires an actual argument laid out from Scripture "properly" exegeted. Said argument must agree in totality with all of Scripture. If we find Scripture that contradicts said argument then said argument is incorrect or invalid. Since Scripture states plainly that Christ died for all, the claim you made contradicts Scripture therefore it is invalid.

 

[Rhema]

The Bible cannon existed way before Mr. Calvin.

If I may ask, which one? (Which canon?)

This link might not be the best one, but I've found it sufficient and accurate.

The Canon of the Bible: Various councils, synods and canons

The canon of the Catholic Church (merely adopted without much forethought by the Protestant ones) hadn't been established by a valid Synod until 397 AD.

WAY before that, the Church of the East (founded by the Apostle Thomas - outside the rot of the Roman Empire) had an established canon that rejected the book of Revelation.

And Martin Luther himself, founder of the Reformation that Calvin continued, wanted to remove both Revelation and James. But he shot himself in the foot. Luther could hardly champion Sola Scriptura while at the same time removing books. Yet he did alter two verses in his German translation in order to "prove" his theology.

I only argue what the bible says.

With all due respect, one cannot argue what the Bible says if one cannot read what the Bible says. And I don't think you can read what the Bible says, unless I am sorely mistaken and you know Greek or Aramaic. There are linguistic artifacts in English translations that have led many into doctrines that the original language just does not support. Then there are purposeful mistranslations such as 2 Timothy 3:16 that are just plain evil.

I state just my views.

Fair enough.

Rhema

PS: As a general aside, please realize the Church of the East has nothing to do with Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Rhema]

Said argument must agree in totality with all of Scripture.

Yet that presupposition itself cannot be found in Scripture. It is an idea brought to the study of Scripture, and hence is not Exegetical. (Unless I missed some scripture somewhere.)

If we find Scripture that contradicts said argument then said argument is incorrect or invalid.

But this omits the fact that not all Scripture that is claimed to be Scripture is Scripture. So... said argument might just flush out bad Scripture, as, for example, with the Gospel of Judas.

As I've mentioned above, the book of Revelation is not in our canon. And at some point, the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas were both removed from the canon.

Rhema
(As a preemptive statement, - C'mon, it wouldn't take God nearly 400 years to get the canon straight.)

(And as a second preemptive statement, - How is it possible to accept the decision of Catholic Bishops regarding what should and should not be scripture when one rejects the Doctrine of Soteriology practiced by these Very Same Bishops... as if God is more interested in preserving a book than he is in saving souls.)



PS: @Butch5 I'm kinda sad that you abandoned our discussion.

 

[Rhema]

Arminian and Calvinists have always existed, yet Aminians and liberals' attack. Why is that?

Because Calvinists seem oblivious to the fact that Calvin was an accomplice to MURDER.... actual murder.

Michael Servetus - Wikipedia

But admittedly, Calvin had nothing over the Spanish Inquisition.

Rhema

 

[KingJ]

The Bible cannon existed way before Mr. Calvin. I only argue what the bible says. I don't attack denominations or beliefs, I state just my views. Yet you attack me as a Calvinist which I don't identify as. Liberals and Conservatives, Arminian and Calvinists have always existed, yet Aminians and liberals' attack. Why is that? I don't need your childish kindergarten comparison, like you did, which downgrades yourself to, instead lifting yourself up to just your view.

You don't identify as a Calvinist? why, what do you believe differently to them?

I just stated a fact. Calvinistic ideology is something that will work on children or adults of low intelligence.

''You are special'' ''You and only you are the chosen ones''. Insert ''roll eyes'' .

Would you say racists, I mean 'true' racists, are of high intelligence?

Believing something so clearly ignoramus, is evidence of low intelligence or lazy discernment.

Take this thread as an example, you and @Brightfame52 have not tried to logically defend your belief to not only mine but others posts. You just keep to your ''scripture says X and Y''.

Now, I have discussed a lot with Calvinists. What they do is cherry pick the verses Rom 9:15, Rom 9:21 and ''words'' in passages. Words like ''elect''. Then build a belief on it. Insane level of cherry picking.

The devil did the same to Jesus. He said ''jump and angels will catch you''. Jesus replied with ''it is '''also''' written, ''do not tempt God''.

Now Calvinists come and say ''Rom 9:21'', to which others say scripture ''also'' says Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.

Why don't you go jump and experience flying without wings??? Scripture says ''jump, angels will catch you''.

In my books you are a heretic misrepresenting God at a very high level. I have explained why, you have not performed a scriptural rebuttal or provided a logical reply. Just lazy copy paste cherry picking of a sick personal belief.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

There is no need for personal attacks on another, here.

Let this be understood.


Bless you ....><>

With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Ephesians 4:2

 

[Brightfame52]

Christs death was limited to them He actually redeemed Titus 2:14

14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The giving of Himself speaks of His death, and specifically says "for us", who are they? Why it's all that are redeemed from iniquity, and purified unto himself, who constitute a peculiar people, zealous of good works.17

 

[Brightfame52]

Because you just posted a few passages out of context. Anyone can make a claim, grab a few Bible verses and say the Bible teaches xyz. But, that doesn't mean the claim is accurate. We see all different kinds of claims being made from the Bible. Obviously they can't all be correct. Therefore a lot of people are wrong. Thus, just grabbing a few verses of Scripture and saying the Bibles teaches xyz isn't a valid method of interpreting the Bible. It requires an actual argument laid out from Scripture "properly" exegeted. Said argument must agree in totality with all of Scripture. If we find Scripture that contradicts said argument then said argument is incorrect or invalid. Since Scripture states plainly that Christ died for all, the claim you made contradicts Scripture therefore it is invalid.

Thats your opinion they out of context, I see all the scripture Im using as making a biblical point.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Christs death was limited to them He actually redeemed Titus 2:14

Titus 2:14 does not state that. Nothing at all about "was limited".
We all need to be aware that we do not read the Bible with a determination to read into it that which we want Scripture to 'say'.
I would venture to say that most, if not all, have done so at some time or another.

Verse 11 of chapter 2 Titus, states,
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

and this verse precedes verse 14.
There might be also places in Scripture that point out that some/many rejected the Good News.
The atonement is 'there' but it only can be a covering to and for those who seek God and believe, for those who be converted from the way of transgressions and darkness to sanctification and light. In that sense, it is limited. That is, only those who take up their cross daily and follow Him can come to the Father and received that which is theirs through God's grace.

Mercy is God's prerogative, not sinful man's.

How often does Scripture mention 'repent' (including repentance and repented) ?
Do all repent?

Let us not get caught up in trying to rewrite what is written.

Do we walk by the Spirit?

Let us provoke one another to love, giving thanks to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

When all is said and done, it is God that justifies. He judges the heart. He knows them that truly seek Him.

Let us not try to limit God as we surely do not want to be judged and rewarded according to any limitations that we put before Him and His great Love.

I know that I need His mercy and grace and while I may consider myself much less than all others, I know that all others also need His mercy and grace.

By faith....


Let us not be ashamed of His great love, His longsuffering and patience.

Watch and pray.

Jesus Christ is the Lord


Bless you ....><>

 

[Brightfame52]

Greetings,



Titus 2:14 does not state that. Nothing at all about "was limited".
We all need to be aware that we do not read the Bible with a determination to read into it that which we want Scripture to 'say'.
I would venture to say that most, if not all, have done so at some time or another.

Verse 11 of chapter 2 Titus, states,
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

and this verse precedes verse 14.
There might be also places in Scripture that point out that some/many rejected the Good News.
The atonement is 'there' but it only can be a covering to and for those who seek God and believe, for those who be converted from the way of transgressions and darkness to sanctification and light. In that sense, it is limited. That is, only those who take up their cross daily and follow Him can come to the Father and received that which is theirs through God's grace.

Mercy is God's prerogative, not sinful man's.

How often does Scripture mention 'repent' (including repentance and repented) ?
Do all repent?

Let us not get caught up in trying to rewrite what is written.

Do we walk by the Spirit?

Let us provoke one another to love, giving thanks to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

When all is said and done, it is God that justifies. He judges the heart. He knows them that truly seek Him.

Let us not try to limit God as we surely do not want to be judged and rewarded according to any limitations that we put before Him and His great Love.

I know that I need His mercy and grace and while I may consider myself much less than all others, I know that all others also need His mercy and grace.

By faith....


Let us not be ashamed of His great love, His longsuffering and patience.

Watch and pray.

Jesus Christ is the Lord


Bless you ....><>

It states it to me !

Greetings,



Titus 2:14 does not state that. Nothing at all about "was limited".
We all need to be aware that we do not read the Bible with a determination to read into it that which we want Scripture to 'say'.
I would venture to say that most, if not all, have done so at some time or another.

Verse 11 of chapter 2 Titus, states,
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

and this verse precedes verse 14.
There might be also places in Scripture that point out that some/many rejected the Good News.
The atonement is 'there' but it only can be a covering to and for those who seek God and believe, for those who be converted from the way of transgressions and darkness to sanctification and light. In that sense, it is limited. That is, only those who take up their cross daily and follow Him can come to the Father and received that which is theirs through God's grace.

Mercy is God's prerogative, not sinful man's.

How often does Scripture mention 'repent' (including repentance and repented) ?
Do all repent?

Let us not get caught up in trying to rewrite what is written.

Do we walk by the Spirit?

Let us provoke one another to love, giving thanks to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

When all is said and done, it is God that justifies. He judges the heart. He knows them that truly seek Him.

Let us not try to limit God as we surely do not want to be judged and rewarded according to any limitations that we put before Him and His great Love.

I know that I need His mercy and grace and while I may consider myself much less than all others, I know that all others also need His mercy and grace.

By faith....


Let us not be ashamed of His great love, His longsuffering and patience.

Watch and pray.

Jesus Christ is the Lord


Bless you ....><>

Titus 2:14 states clearly the intended purpose and result of Christs Death, to redeem from all iniquity and purify a people unto Himself zealous of Good works. Thats making them faithful followers. Do you deny that ?

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Thats making them faithful followers.

Who?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Brightfame52]

Greetings,



Who?


Bless you ....><>

Who ? Those He died for, DUH Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Didnt you know that those who He gave Himself for are them He died for ? Thats what giving Himself means here.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Do we really need to, "DUH"?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Brightfame52]

Greetings,

Do we really need to, "DUH"?


Bless you ....><>

Do we ?

 

[Rhema]

Would you say racists, I mean 'true' racists, are of high intelligence?

Many are, and I give Margaret Sanger as an example. The lady who founded what became Planned Parenthood is indirectly responsible for hundreds of thousands more deaths of Blacks than the KKK could ever hope for in their wildest dreams.

Peter C. Engelman, Associate Editor of NYU's Margaret Sanger Papers Project, noted that "Sanger quite effortlessly looked the other way when others spouted racist speech. She had no reservations about relying on flawed and overtly racist works to serve her own needs."​

Believing something so clearly ignoramus (ignorant), is evidence of low intelligence or lazy discernment.

Well sir, watch out in case that statement comes back to bite you on the bumm. It's only a matter of time. Many highly intelligent people have just not been taught the skills necessary for critical thinking. Yet there is an unfortunate tendency amongst religious leaders (no matter the religion) to scream heresy in order to lock down their power and control, being more interested in indoctrination than in understanding.

For the scribes and the Pharisees bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.​

(Matthew 23:4 KJV)​

And Jesus wasn't just talking about Jews. A very powerful tool of the JW's is disfellowship, wherein one loses ALL your friends and family if you express a belief that is contrary to their organization's Statement of Faith. That's a social control where believing ignorant things isn't linked to low intelligence or lazy discernment.

But what of you? Is your intelligence too low or are you too lazy to learn the Greek text in order to Read the New Testament in the original language? I would Hope NOT. Yet with the opportunities available, why wouldn't one want to use the original language of the New Testament? In my ignorant youth I had thought that everyone would once they knew that they could.

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

Well I quickly found out differently.

But as I said above, were such to be permitted, I could readily put you in a corner where...

In my books you are a heretic misrepresenting God at a very high level.

But I've found that sometimes the most adamant person pounding his pulpit proclaiming a cherished theological doctrine might just be fighting an internal realization that he or she is wrong.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

We all need to be aware that we do not read the Bible with a determination to read into it that which we want Scripture to 'say'.

And yet most all translations are done so with that exact intent.

Verse 11 of chapter 2 Titus, states,
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

While the phrase πασιν ανθρωποις technically does mean "all men," given its usage within the entirety of the Greek corpus, it might better be read as "mankind."

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to Mankind.​

ἄνθρωπος

man; person, human being; people, mankind

www.billmounce.com

Mercy is God's prerogative, not sinful man's.

A prerogative suffused throughout his character, for which Mankind yearns but is blind.

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.​

(Exodus 33:19 KJV)​

Praise God.

Let us not get caught up in trying to rewrite what is written.

But we should make sure that what we read is actually what was written (and intended).

I know that I need His mercy and grace and while I may consider myself much less than all others, I know that all others also need His mercy and grace.

@Br. Bear, how often your words are a cool drink to the parched soul. (And trust me, I don't glad hand.)

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

It states it to me !

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(2 Peter 1:20 KJV)

 

[Rhema]

Do we ?

"DUH"...

 

[Br. Bear]

@Rhema

Greetings,

And yet most all translations are done so with that exact intent.

Yes. Cultural tradition is something of an obstacle we are advised to not lead us.

While the phrase πασιν ανθρωποις technically does mean "all men," given its usage within the entirety of the Greek corpus, it might better be read as "mankind."
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to Mankind.

Would 'people' be OK?

for which Mankind yearns but is blind.

giving sight to the blind is (part of) God's mercy?

Praise God.

Yes

But we should make sure that what we read is actually what was written (and intended).

Indeed

@Br. Bear, how often your words are a cool drink to the parched soul. (And trust me, I don't glad hand.)

Reciprocation comes to mind.

Thank you for the encouragement. Something I am comforted by. A faithful obedience on your part, according to what is written.

Praise the LORD

thank you also for the syllabification provided.


Bless you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Many are, and I give Margaret Sanger as an example. The lady who founded what became Planned Parenthood is indirectly responsible for hundreds of thousands more deaths of Blacks than the KKK could ever hope for in their wildest dreams.

Peter C. Engelman, Associate Editor of NYU's Margaret Sanger Papers Project, noted that "Sanger quite effortlessly looked the other way when others spouted racist speech. She had no reservations about relying on flawed and overtly racist works to serve her own needs."​

True racism is evidence of low intelligence. You have yet to pass a grade 4 biology exam if you are a racist.

I say 'true', so please try grasp that if you disagree. You have not grasped it with this reply of yours.

Believing something so clearly ignoramus (ignorant), is evidence of low intelligence or lazy discernment.

Intentional pun.

Well sir, watch out in case that statement comes back to bite you on the bumm.

I will not. If one teaches from scripture a doctrine that completely and utterly misrepresents God and will not accept correction, you are with 100% certainty an enemy of the cross.

A Christian works out their salvation in fear and trembling before God Phil 2:12. Teaching that God sit atop a list of the most evil beings to ever exist shows no fear of God. If I was a Calvinist I would make sure that I have grasped the A-Z of scripture and strongly considered all counter arguments before I dare utter a single Calvinistic belief. Imagine teaching that He is partial when scripture is crystal clear that he is not Acts 10:34. That it is unthinkable that He do what is wicked Job 34:12. Try and grasp that Calvinists teach what should be unthinkable. Let that fact sink in.

How many people do you think such a message will lead to Jesus? You cannot preach a more wicked message. It is right up there with those who teach God will torture those who hate Him, for all eternity.

Yet there is an unfortunate tendency amongst religious leaders (no matter the religion) to scream heresy in order to lock down their power and control, being more interested in indoctrination than in understanding.

Most religions start for money from membership. I have done a study on the Jehovah Witnesses a while back, all about money. Day 1 to current.

If it was not for the money, there would be little false teaching. It is therefore not really hard to debunk these false teachers. They mostly cherry pick like children.

For the scribes and the Pharisees bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.​

(Matthew 23:4 KJV)​

Separate topic.

And Jesus wasn't just talking about Jews. A very powerful tool of the JW's is disfellowship, wherein one loses ALL your friends and family if you express a belief that is contrary to their organization's Statement of Faith. That's a social control where believing ignorant things isn't linked to low intelligence or lazy discernment.

Separate topic.

But what of you? Is your intelligence too low or are you too lazy to learn the Greek text in order to Read the New Testament in the original language?

Separate topic. If you want to discuss my intelligence start a new thread .

I would Hope NOT. Yet with the opportunities available, why wouldn't one want to use the original language of the New Testament? In my ignorant youth I had thought that everyone would once they knew that they could.

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

Well I quickly found out differently.

But as I said above, were such to be permitted, I could readily put you in a corner where...

I go to Greek if it's necessary. I doubt you could put me in a corner on core beliefs.

But I've found that sometimes the most adamant person pounding his pulpit proclaiming a cherished theological doctrine might just be fighting an internal realization that he or she is wrong.

Rhema

You like to talk around a topic and type words that really just waste time. You must be a writer.