Limited atonement !

[KingJ]

People always make excuses for stupid things done by their heroes.

(And if that was stupid, what part of his beliefs might also be?)

So, maybe a false teaching is just an attempt to help the sick and the poor.

Thank you, I had never considered that level of stupidity before.

Rhema

You need to think before you reply. This reply makes no sense.

Wesley is behind the Methodist church and imagine faulting them.

 

[Rhema]

You need to think before you reply. This reply makes no sense.

Wesley is behind the Methodist church and imagine faulting them.

All that means is that you can make no sense of it. (Try harder.)

You think it's a problem to fault the Methodist Church?

 

[Rockerduck]

All that means is that you can make no sense of it. (Try harder.)

You think it's a problem to fault the Methodist Church?

That's the United Methodist church. I'm Wesleyan church.

 

[KingJ]

All that means is that you can make no sense of it. (Try harder.)

You did not properly read a post before you replied.

You think it's a problem to fault the Methodist Church?

You are grabbing at a straw and not grasping the point made.

Because in 2019 a denominations leaders cave to pressure from the alphabet people, the doctrines supported since Wesley in the 17 th century are unsound?

If you look at history you will see that when things like your video take place it causes denominations to branch out.

 

[Rhema]

To make your case you would need to try fault them when John Wesley was around, which was certainly not 2019.

You obviously didn't watch the video about Wesley sending out women evangelists.

Here's another one for you.

Wesley is behind the Methodist church and imagine faulting them.

That's the United Methodist church. I'm Wesleyan church.

The "them" in your above quote is a referent to the Methodist church. But I realize that English is your second language, so... I can make allowances.

Rhema

I'm Wesleyan church.

So which is it? They seem to have many names.

South African Wesleyan Ministers genealogy project

A collection of genealogical profiles related to South African Wesleyan Ministers

www.geni.com

 

[Rockerduck]

You obviously didn't watch the video about Wesley sending out women evangelists.

Here's another one for you.

The "them" in your above quote is a referent to the Methodist church. But I realize that English is your second language, so... I can make allowances.

Rhema

So which is it? They seem to have many names.

South African Wesleyan Ministers genealogy project

A collection of genealogical profiles related to South African Wesleyan Ministers

www.geni.com

Wesleyan Church. In the USA.

 

[Rhema]

Wesleyan Church. In the USA.

Thank you kindly, Mr. Rockerduck, but KingJ's profile says he lives in South Africa, and the organizational structure there seems a bit chaotic from what I've read.

God bless,
Rhema

PS: I have visited Houghton College and the now defunct Wesleyan College in Allentown PA.
PPS: Interesting, it would appear the Wesleyans have bought a defunct Evangelical Congregational building near me. I might just visit.

 

[Brightfame52]

The scripture indicates limited atonement by being specific for whom Christ came into the flesh and identified with. Did He take on flesh to identify with all humanity? Or did He take on flesh to identify with a segment of humanity? Scripture says He came and took on the flesh humanity of the Seed of Abraham. Heb 2:14,16-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Now the seed of Abraham, or Abrahams seed are a chosen people Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The seed of Abraham is His friend, and Jesus says Jn 15:13


Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So His death is limited to His friends the chosen seed of Abraham, in Christ Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 18

 

[KingJ]

The scripture indicates limited atonement by being specific for whom Christ came into the flesh and identified with. Did He take on flesh to identify with all humanity? Or did He take on flesh to identify with a segment of humanity? Scripture says He came and took on the flesh humanity of the Seed of Abraham. Heb 2:14,16-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Now the seed of Abraham, or Abrahams seed are a chosen people Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The seed of Abraham is His friend, and Jesus says Jn 15:13


Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So His death is limited to His friends the chosen seed of Abraham, in Christ Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 18

Are you a Jew? The scripture you quoted says seed of Abraham. That is Jews. If you not a Jew, guess you not one of the chosen. Sorry, was nice knowing you. I will send you Mcdonalds happy meals when you burning in fire for all eternity.

 

[Butch5]

The scripture indicates limited atonement by being specific for whom Christ came into the flesh and identified with. Did He take on flesh to identify with all humanity? Or did He take on flesh to identify with a segment of humanity? Scripture says He came and took on the flesh humanity of the Seed of Abraham. Heb 2:14,16-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Now the seed of Abraham, or Abrahams seed are a chosen people Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The seed of Abraham is His friend, and Jesus says Jn 15:13


Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So His death is limited to His friends the chosen seed of Abraham, in Christ Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 18

He came for the seed of Abraham. Ok, Judas was a seed of Abraham.

 

[Rhema]

He came for the seed of Abraham. Ok, Judas was a seed of Abraham.

So that's ONE lost that we know of .... How about all the rest that reject Christ? Those pesky high priests? Those bothersome Pharisees?

So Christ's death, even if only for this select elite of @Brightfame52, didn't save all of them then.

Rhema

 

[Brightfame52]

Christs death is limited to them that God has not appointed wrath, but to obtain Salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord 1 Thess 5:9-10

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Thats very specific. Now who are the us that are to obtain Salvation ? 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Christ did not die for them appointed to wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 18

 

[Butch5]

Christs death is limited to them that God has not appointed wrath, but to obtain Salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord 1 Thess 5:9-10

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Thats very specific. Now who are the us that are to obtain Salvation ? 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Christ did not die for them appointed to wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 18

So sad.

 

[Rhema]

Christ did not die for them appointed to wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 18

Brightframe... I'm not sure that VESSELS are "people." Even Strong's identifies the word Greek word "vessel" (σκεῦος - G4632) to mean implement, equipment or apparatus. And those things are not "people." The idea that the physical body is a "vessel" for the soul isn't even found in Greek philosophy. It seems to be a term exclusive to Paul (though used once in 1st Peter), where Paul has appropriated "vessel" as a metaphor for those who carry the Holy Spirit.

I would express a very deep concern that you (and others) have taken the phrase "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" and changed the words to mean "people predestined or created to go to hell." The interpretation that God makes people evil and destined for hell is just that, an interpretation, and a bad one at that, based upon changing the words. I would caution that such a simplistic view of chapter nine does not capture what Paul is trying to explain. His main theme is this -

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.​

(Romans 9:15 KJV)​

And what is this compassion? The impartation of the Holy Spirit, whereby one cannot be saved without such. While there IS a reason why God selects those upon whom he would have this mercy (of impartation), it's NOT in accord with how HUMANS view justice. While it IS God who decides, His decisions do not follow Man's understanding.

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.​

(Luke 9:54-56 KJV)​

If such had already been decided by God prior to the creation of the world, why would the Son even need to come to save men? (Please consider the question rhetorical.) My point is that the desire to command fire to come down from heaven to consume those whom James and John decided were evil, stems from a human perspective (spirit) of justice. God's Justice is not understood by Men. For example, the Jewish people followed a TORAH by which they believed themselves to become saved. Paul differed, since the vessel of salvation is Christ. Modern Evangelicals ask sinners to choose to become saved. It would seem that Paul also differed in this.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth (cf. Php 2:16), but of God that sheweth mercy.​

(Romans 9:16 KJV)​

But this doctrine that God HAD (past tense) just arbitrarily selected people to be saved before creation, or that God created other people to not be saved, is the exact idea that verse 22 refutes.

But God, though, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:​

(Romans 9:22 KJV~)​

Verse 22 says that God endures these "vessels." That God is patient. That God withholds his wrath. Why? Is God sinning by doing this? No. Rather God is willing that all be saved:

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; ... (God) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Timothy 2:1, 4-6 KJV)​

YOU are commanded to pray for the unsaved. Why? Why bother even doing this if such cannot have any effect? That it was all decided before God created the world? Is God playing you for the fool? Or might Paul contradict himself?

So then how is one to understand verse 23? It doesn't say what you think it does. Please, I beg you to read:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he προετοιμάζω (G4282) prepared for one's own use or purpose unto glory,​

(Romans 9:23 KJV~)​

There is no "afore prepared" to be found in this verse. It is a twisted translation by those who already believed in the Doctrine of Predestination that you've expressed. It's not surprising that one would find predestination in a Bible translated by those who believe in it. (Compare with the Geneva Bible.)

Unfortunately at this point, one would need to spend a few hours to understand the AORIST "tense" of the verb "to prepare." But it's NOT past tense to refer to a time before creation. Rather, the action is "puncticular" meaning that God has a specific point whereby HE decides when, where, and why a person is to be given the mercy of the impartation of the Holy Spirit.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

(Romans 10:13 KJV)​

This is why we ask GOD to save the sinner, we don't ask the sinner to choose God. And when God decides at that point to have mercy, then that person shall call upon the name of the Lord.

I hope this helps disabuse you of the horrid notion that NOW doesn't matter. Because NOW is the time of salvation. (Not the time before creation.)

(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, NOW is the accepted time; behold, NOW is the day of salvation.)​

(2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV)​

God bless,
Rhema

(@Butch5)

 

[Butch5]

Brightframe... I'm not sure that VESSELS are "people." Even Strong's identifies the word Greek word "vessel" (σκεῦος - G4632) to mean implement, equipment or apparatus. And those things are not "people." The idea that the physical body is a "vessel" for the soul isn't even found in Greek philosophy. It seems to be a term exclusive to Paul (though used once in 1st Peter), where Paul has appropriated "vessel" as a metaphor for those who carry the Holy Spirit.

I would express a very deep concern that you (and others) have taken the phrase "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" and changed the words to mean "people predestined or created to go to hell." The interpretation that God makes people evil and destined for hell is just that, an interpretation, and a bad one at that, based upon changing the words. I would caution that such a simplistic view of chapter nine does not capture what Paul is trying to explain. His main theme is this -

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.​

(Romans 9:15 KJV)​

And what is this compassion? The impartation of the Holy Spirit, whereby one cannot be saved without such. While there IS a reason why God selects those upon whom he would have this mercy (of impartation), it's NOT in accord with how HUMANS view justice. While it IS God who decides, His decisions do not follow Man's understanding.

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.​

(Luke 9:54-56 KJV)​

If such had already been decided by God prior to the creation of the world, why would the Son even need to come to save men? (Please consider the question rhetorical.) My point is that the desire to command fire to come down from heaven to consume those whom James and John decided were evil, stems from a human perspective (spirit) of justice. God's Justice is not understood by Men. For example, the Jewish people followed a TORAH by which they believed themselves to become saved. Paul differed, since the vessel of salvation is Christ. Modern Evangelicals ask sinners to choose to become saved. It would seem that Paul also differed in this.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth (cf. Php 2:16), but of God that sheweth mercy.​

(Romans 9:16 KJV)​

But this doctrine that God HAD (past tense) just arbitrarily selected people to be saved before creation, or that God created other people to not be saved, is the exact idea that verse 22 refutes.

But God, though, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:​

(Romans 9:22 KJV~)​

Verse 22 says that God endures these "vessels." That God is patient. That God withholds his wrath. Why? Is God sinning by doing this? No. Rather God is willing that all be saved:

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; ... (God) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Timothy 2:1, 4-6 KJV)​

YOU are commanded to pray for the unsaved. Why? Why bother even doing this if such cannot have any effect? That it was all decided before God created the world? Is God playing you for the fool? Or might Paul contradict himself?

So then how is one to understand verse 23? It doesn't say what you think it does. Please, I beg you to read:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he προετοιμάζω (G4282) prepared for one's own use or purpose unto glory,​

(Romans 9:23 KJV~)​

There is no "afore prepared" to be found in this verse. It is a twisted translation by those who already believed in the Doctrine of Predestination that you've expressed. It's not surprising that one would find predestination in a Bible translated by those who believe in it. (Compare with the Geneva Bible.)

Unfortunately at this point, one would need to spend a few hours to understand the AORIST "tense" of the verb "to prepare." But it's NOT past tense to refer to a time before creation. Rather, the action is "puncticular" meaning that God has a specific point whereby HE decides when, where, and why a person is to be given the mercy of the impartation of the Holy Spirit.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

(Romans 10:13 KJV)​

This is why we ask GOD to save the sinner, we don't ask the sinner to choose God. And when God decides at that point to have mercy, then that person shall call upon the name of the Lord.

I hope this helps disabuse you of the horrid notion that NOW doesn't matter. Because NOW is the time of salvation. (Not the time before creation.)

(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, NOW is the accepted time; behold, NOW is the day of salvation.)​

(2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV)​

God bless,
Rhema

(@Butch5)

I hope you get though. I've offered to meet in person. As he only lives about 70 miles from me. He's not taken me up on the offer.

 

[Rhema]

I hope you get though. I've offered to meet in person. As he only lives about 70 miles from me. He's not taken me up on the offer.

While I dislike third party commentary, it would seem that he has indeed cemented his identity to that Doctrine. So he would very much need to go through a type of death in order to embrace Truth - in essence, needing to be born from the beginning. What Jesus proclaimed to the Jews got him killed because they too had cemented their identity to their Doctrine and could not die to their self.

That's why I was hoping to continue the private conversation between you and I. It took great suffering for me to change.

Rhema

 

[Butch5]

While I dislike third party commentary, it would seem that he has indeed cemented his identity to that Doctrine. So he would very much need to go through a type of death in order to embrace Truth - in essence, needing to be born from the beginning. What Jesus proclaimed to the Jews got him killed because they too had cemented their identity to their Doctrine and could not die to their self.

That's why I was hoping to continue the private conversation between you and I. It took great suffering for me to change.

Rhema

Send me your email again so I can find the conversation. I've been busy for the last several months but am finally getting caught up.

 

[Brightfame52]

They that are Called !

The Lord Jesus Christ didn't come nor die to save all mankind, but only for them which are called Heb 9:15

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

There is a called people that Christ came specifically to taste death for, and bring them into their eternal inheritance. In the original its they which are " the called" with the definite article.

These are the same ones called here Rom 8:30

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

Rom 9:24

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

1 Cor 1:9

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Remember those in 1 Peter had been redeemed by the blood of Christ 1 Pet 1:18-19 and they were going to obtain an inheritance 1 Pet 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is the same inheritance written of in Heb 9:15 coming to them by means of His death. 19

 

[Brightfame52]

Brightframe... I'm not sure that VESSELS are "people." Even Strong's identifies the word Greek word "vessel" (σκεῦος - G4632) to mean implement, equipment or apparatus. And those things are not "people." The idea that the physical body is a "vessel" for the soul isn't even found in Greek philosophy. It seems to be a term exclusive to Paul (though used once in 1st Peter), where Paul has appropriated "vessel" as a metaphor for those who carry the Holy Spirit.

I would express a very deep concern that you (and others) have taken the phrase "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" and changed the words to mean "people predestined or created to go to hell." The interpretation that God makes people evil and destined for hell is just that, an interpretation, and a bad one at that, based upon changing the words. I would caution that such a simplistic view of chapter nine does not capture what Paul is trying to explain. His main theme is this -

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.​

(Romans 9:15 KJV)​

And what is this compassion? The impartation of the Holy Spirit, whereby one cannot be saved without such. While there IS a reason why God selects those upon whom he would have this mercy (of impartation), it's NOT in accord with how HUMANS view justice. While it IS God who decides, His decisions do not follow Man's understanding.

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.​

(Luke 9:54-56 KJV)​

If such had already been decided by God prior to the creation of the world, why would the Son even need to come to save men? (Please consider the question rhetorical.) My point is that the desire to command fire to come down from heaven to consume those whom James and John decided were evil, stems from a human perspective (spirit) of justice. God's Justice is not understood by Men. For example, the Jewish people followed a TORAH by which they believed themselves to become saved. Paul differed, since the vessel of salvation is Christ. Modern Evangelicals ask sinners to choose to become saved. It would seem that Paul also differed in this.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth (cf. Php 2:16), but of God that sheweth mercy.​

(Romans 9:16 KJV)​

But this doctrine that God HAD (past tense) just arbitrarily selected people to be saved before creation, or that God created other people to not be saved, is the exact idea that verse 22 refutes.

But God, though, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:​

(Romans 9:22 KJV~)​

Verse 22 says that God endures these "vessels." That God is patient. That God withholds his wrath. Why? Is God sinning by doing this? No. Rather God is willing that all be saved:

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; ... (God) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Timothy 2:1, 4-6 KJV)​

YOU are commanded to pray for the unsaved. Why? Why bother even doing this if such cannot have any effect? That it was all decided before God created the world? Is God playing you for the fool? Or might Paul contradict himself?

So then how is one to understand verse 23? It doesn't say what you think it does. Please, I beg you to read:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he προετοιμάζω (G4282) prepared for one's own use or purpose unto glory,​

(Romans 9:23 KJV~)​

There is no "afore prepared" to be found in this verse. It is a twisted translation by those who already believed in the Doctrine of Predestination that you've expressed. It's not surprising that one would find predestination in a Bible translated by those who believe in it. (Compare with the Geneva Bible.)

Unfortunately at this point, one would need to spend a few hours to understand the AORIST "tense" of the verb "to prepare." But it's NOT past tense to refer to a time before creation. Rather, the action is "puncticular" meaning that God has a specific point whereby HE decides when, where, and why a person is to be given the mercy of the impartation of the Holy Spirit.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

(Romans 10:13 KJV)​

This is why we ask GOD to save the sinner, we don't ask the sinner to choose God. And when God decides at that point to have mercy, then that person shall call upon the name of the Lord.

I hope this helps disabuse you of the horrid notion that NOW doesn't matter. Because NOW is the time of salvation. (Not the time before creation.)

(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, NOW is the accepted time; behold, NOW is the day of salvation.)​

(2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV)​

God bless,
Rhema

(@Butch5)

You entitled to your opinion

 

[Brightfame52]

Are you a Jew? The scripture you quoted says seed of Abraham. That is Jews. If you not a Jew, guess you not one of the chosen. Sorry, was nice knowing you. I will send you Mcdonalds happy meals when you burning in fire for all eternity.

Christs death for someone isn't motivated by ethnicity. Thats a corrupt notion