Mid-tribulation

[lecoop]

well after studying the trumpets all seven and the bowls and seals there are only 7 of each and the 7th trumpet which is the trump of god and the last and final one. using the scipture jesus comes and gets his bride at that point and i will stick to that. because that is what god word says in chronilogical order. and that is all i have to say!

Kevin,

There IS a "last trump."
There IS a 7th trump.

But there is NO scripture anywhere that ties these two together. And there IS scripture proving they are NOT THE SAME.

Why then do you hold so tight to false doctrine? You can study 'till the cows come home, on Rev. 10 & 11, but you will NEVER see or find any kind of "gathering" there. Why? Because there ISN'T one there.

The 7th trumpet "marks" the exact midpoint of the week. There IS NO GATHERING at the midpoint of the week ANYWHERE in the bible. There will be people FLEEING when they see the abomination.

Jesus does NOT RETURN to earth at the 7th trumpet. That too is false doctrine. SURELY you can read that He comes in Rev. 19, riding on a white horse? You KNOW THIS! Why then hold to something FALSE?

Of course you have a right to believe whatever you choose. But when you come on a public forum to teach it, IT WILL BE CHALLENGED by the word of God.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Eric wrote,

To lecoop,
(((The reason you do not understand the chronology as I understand it is you do not understand the third woe, which is the 7th trumpet judgment. Please don’t be up set. The third woe and 7th trumpet judgment is the devil being cast to the earth where he will persecute Israel the woman for a time , times and half a time or 3.5 years. The 3rd woe and 7th trumpet last for all of the great tribulation

Sorry Eric. I don't wish to understand it as you do. I DO understand the 7th trumpet to be the 3rd woe - as a key that unlocks a door to hell on earth. You see, Michael cannot kick Satan down from the high places UNTIL that 7th trumpet sounds. That is his SIGNAL to go to war. Please notice, it IS written, "woe to those on earth..." Do you imagine this as the 4th woe? I believe it is the 3rd.

I am not upset. Your posts do show a lot of promise.

Again you insist that the 7th trumpet will last the entire rest of the week! That angel must have some set of lungs!

Would you be willing to change that to say the EFFECTS of the 7th trumpet go to the end of the week?

The way this book is written, the 7th seal is as a KEY that unlocks the door to the Trumpets. Then the 7th trumpet is the KEY that unlocks the door to everything that comes after that. But I think to say that the 7th trumpet [blast] lasts for the rest of the week is a stretch of the imagination.

Revelation12:12-14
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

We agree then, THIS is the 3rd woe. But really this has very little bearing on your one hour theory.

The second woe is over within one hour of the completion of the1260 days served by the two witnesses. The third woe which comes quickly will last for the last 1260 days of the tribulation. I hope this helps you to understand.)))

[/QUOTE]

Eric, do you just ignore my posts? I went into great detail PROVING this is wrong! It cannot possibly be truth. PLEASE go over my post again, and read carefully. The second woe is the 6th trumpet, and the EFFECTS of that trumpet, or I could say the events associated by and assigned to and started at the 6th trumpet ENDS at the end of chapter 9. It is forgotten by chapter 11.

I suspect you get this from here:

Young's Literal Translation
The second woe did go forth, lo, the third woe doth come quickly.

If you look up the verb tense of "did go forth" or "is passed," you will find it a Greek Aorist tense verb. This is what Thayer's says of this tense:

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense:
"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense..."

Therefore, there is no timing or chronology at all to be found here. It is simply a statement of fact. The 2nd woe WAS the 6th trumpet, at this point in time HISTORY. But please notice, there is absolutely NOT ONE WORD or "jot or tittle" here that tells us the 2nd woe extends to this point in time. If we go back to chapter 9, we can see that the actions and events assigned to the 6th seal FINISHED at the end of chapter 9.

Eric, HOW MANY MORE WAYS can I say this? Your theory is all wet. It is just that: a theory that cannot be proven by scriptures.

Eric, do you have ANY idea what a parenthesis is? Can you not understand that although the events of the two witnesses are WRITTEN in chapter 11, they actually extend all the way to chapter 16? Can you not understand this? I wish I could draw you a picture.

ALL FIVE of the events mentioning the 3 1/2 years BEGIN near the midpoint and END at or near the 7th vial. That is written in stone so to speak, and will not change. It is the word of God.

OF COURSE the testifying of the two witnesses is one of these five.

Sorry, Eric, but I do understand you - but I also understand you are not scripturally correct.

Tell us again, where is john timing wise, in his chronology in Rev. 11:1

Then tell us where he is in verse 2 and verse 3.

Be as specific as you can.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

The reason I spend time on the woman in Revelations 12 is because she is a great sign. Of special significance amongst the other signs.

Here are the opening verses of Revelations 12 again.

Revelations 12 (NKJV)

Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

This woman is a great sign, a very significant sign, God wants us to behold the woman, pay attention to this woman. She is a magnificent sight to behold, clothed with the sun, the sun is the brightest object in the sky, we experience difficulty when we try to look at the sun. A thousand times brighter than other heavenly bodies. Radiant splendor, clothed with Christ, clothed with brightness so bright, so much light (righteousness of Jesus Christ). Her linen, her clothing, the sun was indeed very bright.

This woman appeared in heaven!

And upon her head a crown of twelve stars - A crown (royal) in which there were placed twelve stars. This would, of course, greatly increase the beauty of the vision; and there can be no doubt that the number twelve here is significant. If the woman here is designated to symbolize the church, then the number twelve has, in all probability, some allusion either to the twelve tribes of Israel, or to the twelve apostles - an allusion which, it may be supposed, the apostles would be more likely to make.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

"They that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness, as the Stars for ever and ever." Daniel 12:3

Twelve stars are the twelve apostles and not the twelve tribes of Israel.

What about the moon under her feet?
Anyone want to try and present an explanation of the moon.

You can theorize all you want. But the Holy Spirit spoke WORDS to me and said that these first 5 verses were a part of God introducing John to the DRAGON. (He told me to count how many times the Dragon was mentioned, including pronouns.) He said concerning the first five verses: "I also chose to show John what he Dragon DID when I was born. That was a history lesson to John."

I may not have it word for word, for it was years ago, but this is very close. Those five verses were to SHOW John how the dragon attempted to murder the Messiah as a baby.

We don't really need to read between the lines and find some mysterious, deep mystery here. It is written that the dragon attempted to kill Jesus when he was a baby. We KNOW the dragon attempted this through King Herod.

These five verses were written as a parenthesis with nothing at all to do with John's chronology. It was a simple look into the past.

Coop

 

[David777]

We don't really need to read between the lines and find some mysterious, deep mystery here. It is written that the dragon attempted to kill Jesus when he was a baby. We KNOW the dragon attempted this through King Herod.

These five verses were written as a parenthesis with nothing at all to do with John's chronology. It was a simple look into the past.

Coop

Revelations says the woman was the great sign.

The red dragon is not a great sign, the red dragon is a loser.

Perhaps you would like to explain Revelations 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war
with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold
to the testimony of Jesus.

Have a shot lecoop.

 

[Brother Mike]

Look into the Past.

REV 12 is about Past events, Jesus saw during his time on Earth Satan fall like Lightning. The Kingdom of God had come to earth.

Perhaps you would like to explain Revelations 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war
with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold
to the testimony of Jesus.

If this is Mary, someone best come up with some scriptures!!!

John Wrote Rev... His understanding was pretty simple.

Joh 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Joh 19:27 Then He said to the disciple, See, [here is] your mother! And from that hour, the disciple took her into his own [keeping, own home].

If Jesus Told John, Mary is his Mother, and John knows we are his Brothers......................... There would be a reason he wrote what he did in Rev 12:17. I am certain John never forgot the day his Lord died for him.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[David777]

Hello Mike.

I think there will be more than an hour of silence.

They do get carried away somewhat.

 

[brakelite]

Who is the woman of Revelation 12?

Let's allow the Bible to interpret itself....


Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Daniel and John are here referring to the exact same event, involving the exact same characters. Daniel is speaking specifically of the 'little horn', and John of the dragon, the devil, who through the little horn persecuted the woman for times, time, and the dividing (half) of time, which is 3 and one half prophetic years. Prophetic years folks, not literal. Just as the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 is prophetic and is taken to its lowest denominator days, then transferred to years, (490 years) so also is the 1260 days, the 42 months, and the 3 1/2 years ....all equalling 1260 years...the 1260 years the true saints, the church, God's true people, fled from the persecutions of the little horn, the Roman Catholic Church, and was nourished by God in the wilderness. The 1260 years date from 538ad to 1798.

 

[kevinlb63]

thank you brakelite it is about time someone said it!good work 1260 years that the romans had the First Phase of the Papal power and now there back in power! after 1798 Second Phase of the Papal power!

 

[David777]

Hello Brakelite.

Need to know what you mean by "true saints, the church, God's true people". Thank you Brakelite.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Time line study on Revelation

To lecoop,

Yes I agree the 7^th trumpet judgment and 3^rd woe last for the 3.5 years of the great tribulation.
Sorry, I thought you would understand I meant the 7^th trumpet judgment when said 7^th trumpet. The trumpets start events as signals and the blast is short not for 3.5 years as you thought I believed.

Revelation chapter 11 over laps or happens at the same time as all of the seal judgments, Thunder judgments, and the first 6 trumpet judgments.

Think of Revelation as scenes in a movie, some happen on earth, some scenes are in heaven.

I wish you and I could sit down with our Bibles and talk about the Bible in person. It would be great fun. Posting is hard for me. It is worth the effort to help all who read the post.

Chapters in the first half of the tribulation are as follows: 6 through 11:14, 12:6, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18

History 12:1-5

Chapters in the last half of the tribulation are as follows: 11:15-19, 12:7-17, 16, 19, 20


Revelation 11:1-2 happen in the first half of the tribulation after the temple is built but before the middle of the tribulation. The antichrist will go into the temple and declare that he is god after he has control of the rest of the world. The abomination of desolation will be set up in the temple 30 days before the last half of the tribulation begins Daniel 12:11.

Revelation 11:3-14 happens during the 1260 days of the fist half of the tribulation. When God causes the 10 kings to destroy Harlot Babylon and give their power to the antichrist Revelation 17:16-18, the antichrist will kill the two prophets and take control of Jerusalem. Jesus will come down to split the Mount of Olives to make a way of escape for the Jews Zechariah 14:1-5a

 

[Brother Mike]

True saints?

Need to know what you mean by "true saints, the church, God's true people". Thank you Brakelite.

The Language of the Church is completely missing from the time of Rev.

There were saints in the OT also, but the Church we have gospel of Christ, Brothers, Children of God. People take one word "Saints" and ignore everything else. They count trumpets, days, numbers, in attempts to put something spiritual into a Natural mess.

God tell us to count trumpets?? We are told when to count something, but we need to get it sorted like some book or file system, so we count away things, not even counted.

One Angel sounded the Gospel, "Where is the Church?"

The White horse, the rider had a bow, the Pope, his cross is a bow, he rides in a white car, to the natural man, good enough for him, forgetting that the Roman Catholic Church lost all power, and certainly not in any position to do much of anything.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[lecoop]

Revelations says the woman was the great sign.

The red dragon is not a great sign, the red dragon is a loser.

Perhaps you would like to explain Revelations 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war
with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold
to the testimony of Jesus.

Have a shot lecoop.

It is my belief that the Dragon, Satan himself, possesses the Beast and uses him to go after the woman. I believe she (those living in Judea that flee) will be protected as Israel was when they were escaping Egypt.

So failing in getting the woman, the Beast turns to the remnant of her seed. Of course, that means the body of Christ on earth, believers in Jesus Christ. However, John uses a very interesting word, the "remnant." Why did he use this? Because the body of Christ left on the earth at this time is ONLY a remnant - the MAIN LOAD went out with the rapture, 3 1/2 years previous. There is only a remnant left on earth that love Jesus.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Let's allow the Bible to interpret itself....


Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Daniel and John are here referring to the exact same event, involving the exact same characters. Daniel is speaking specifically of the 'little horn', and John of the dragon, the devil, who through the little horn persecuted the woman for times, time, and the dividing (half) of time, which is 3 and one half prophetic years. Prophetic years folks, not literal. Just as the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 is prophetic and is taken to its lowest denominator days, then transferred to years, (490 years) so also is the 1260 days, the 42 months, and the 3 1/2 years ....all equalling 1260 years...the 1260 years the true saints, the church, God's true people, fled from the persecutions of the little horn, the Roman Catholic Church, and was nourished by God in the wilderness. The 1260 years date from 538ad to 1798.

Readers beware: This post is MYTH.

The truth is, God gave the same exact period of time, 3 1/2 360 day years, as 42 months, as 1260 days and as time, times, and the dividing of time.

Daniel gave the 70 weeks as prophecy and we now know that meant 70 week of YEARS. Therefore, in verse 29, the ONE WEEK must be considered as years also. Therefore this final week is a period of 7 years. Daniel also shows us in 9:27 that the week will be divided in half by the abominaton event. Daniel then confirms this by giving us the HALF of this time as time, times, and the dividing of time (3 1/2 years) TWICE.

So adding Daniel to the count, God gave us 7 different passages to tell us the last half of the week would be 3 1/2 years. Do you think He really wants us to GET THIS?


Coop

 

[lecoop]

To lecoop,

Yes I agree the 7^th trumpet judgment and 3^rd woe last for the 3.5 years of the great tribulation.
Sorry, I thought you would understand I meant the 7^th trumpet judgment when said 7^th trumpet. The trumpets start events as signals and the blast is short not for 3.5 years as you thought I believed.

Ah! It is the judgment!! NOW we are on the same page!

Revelation chapter 11 over laps or happens at the same time as all of the seal judgments, Thunder judgments, and the first 6 trumpet judgments.

Now we are in trouble again!:shock: How on earth can you say that?
John is EXTREMELY careful in his chronology! Please, lay this out for me verse by verse, as to why you believe this.

Here is how I think of it: Suppose you go to a play, suppose the nutcracker. It is long. They have an intermission in the middle for refreshments and bathroom calls. They also have two "acts" in the first half and two in the second half, where they close the curtain to rearrange the set.

This is what John does between the 6th and 7th seal: He drops the main, real-time theme of 7 seals - 7 trumpets - 7 vials, and drops into an "intermission" to rearrange the set. There are two events that absolutely MUST take place before john can get back to the real-time of the seals-trumpets-vials, to show the 7th seal that begins the Day of the Lord and the 70th week.

The 144,000 MUST BE sealed for their protection before the trumpet judgments come. Then, the rapture must take place, so we are not here for any part of God's wrath. (The trumpets are certainly a part of His wrath.)

So we find John's first "intermission" between the 6th and 7th seals.

John goes into a second and much longer intermission at the 6th trumpet. Again, he must rearrange the set! Things MUST take place before the 7th trumpet is sounded in heaven and the abomination takes place on earth. This "Midpoint Intermission" starts with chapter 10, and continues through chapter 15. It is long.

Now, back to the nutcracker. Suppose the curtain closes for the refreshments, and you get up to get to the restroom. But you are at the wrong end of an row of chairs and cannot move for a while. When you are just about to enter the aisle, suddenly the curtain opens, you see king soldier kill king rat, and the curtain closes as quickly as it opened. It all took only a few seconds! Most of the people MISSED IT entirely! Of course that would not happen, but that is exactly what John does.

He is IN an intermission, rearranging the set. But suddenly he opens the curtain for a real-time event (seals - trumpets - vials). He writes that the first and second woes are over and the third comes quickly and he writes the sounding of the 7th trumpet - two real-time verses written in an intermission!! But then the curtain is closed for rearranging the set, and will stay closed until the vials are mentioned in chapter 15.

(I thought "intermissions" were a good way to describe the difference between chapter 9 and chapter 10, for example.)

So get the picture of chapter 11: the 6th trumpet has been the last real-time event. (clocks still keep time even during an intermission - but none of the real-time of the play is missed). John is getting ready for the 7th trumpet, but the set MUST BE rearranged. The abomination will take place on earth at the same moment the 7th trumpet is sounding in heaven. So one part of the "set" that must be arranged: the BEAST MUST GET TO JERUSALEM!!

Therefore, please show us how you arrive at this conclusion of an overlap?

Think of Revelation as scenes in a movie, some happen on earth, some scenes are in heaven.

HA! Very much like I just described! Our minds seem to be running in along the same lines!! :shade:


I wish you and I could sit down with our Bibles and talk about the Bible in person. It would be great fun. Posting is hard for me. It is worth the effort to help all who read the post.

Agreed! There are many readers. I post mostly for them.

Chapters in the first half of the tribulation are as follows: 6 through 11:14, 12:6, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18

How I wished I had a rolling on the floor smiley! Eric, how on earth do you come up with this? Did you not see my previous post where I wrote this?

AXIOM on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God-given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL be proven wrong!

Sorry, Eric, but this is simply not the way John wrote! The exact midpoint is the 7th trumpet. Almost everything written in chapters 1-11 up to the 7th trumpet is BEFORE the midpoint. Almost everything written AFTER the 7th trumpet is AFTER the midpoint.

(I gave myself a tiny room for an exception. I know 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis and is one exception.)

You say chapter 13? I think it is in the PERFECT place. Please understand, if two things happen at the same exact time, John cannot write one event on top of another! He is limited in that way. It is my belief that the man of sin will be be REVEALED as the BEAST until the midpoint. John is AT the midpoint in chapter 13. The events there, as proven by the 42 months, start at the midpoint.

Please show us any proof texts you can to support this belief?

History 12:1-5

Chapters in the last half of the tribulation are as follows: 11:15-19, 12:7-17, 16, 19, 20

What about 12:6 for example? I believe they begin to flee within seconds of seeing the abomination. So it would be AFTER. Why not include it? MOST of chapter 13 is what the Beast will be doing during those days of GT. They are OF COURSE in the last half.

Therefore your answer puzzles me. Why not leave John's chronology as is? It makes perfect sense as written. If you disagree, pinpoint a verse and we will discuss it.

Revelation 11:1-2 happen in the first half of the tribulation after the temple is built but before the middle of the tribulation. The antichrist will go into the temple and declare that he is god after he has control of the rest of the world. The abomination of desolation will be set up in the temple 30 days before the last half of the tribulation begins Daniel 12:11.

I disagree. You are working backwards with that 30 days. That was NEVER God's intent. You cannot possibly divide the week into two equal halves by the abomination if it is NOT in the middle. Why would you put more weight on the extra 30 days that you would no the word "midst?" BOTH are the words of God to us. If you leave MIDST as written and believe it, then the abomination divides the week into two EQUAL halves. And there is a perfectly good explanation for the extra 30 days AT THE END OF THE 3 1/2 YEARS. As it is, your theory DESTROYS the meaning of "midst."

Revelation 11:3-14 happens during the 1260 days of the fist half of the tribulation. When God causes the 10 kings to destroy Harlot Babylon and give their power to the antichrist Revelation 17:16-18, the antichrist will kill the two prophets and take control of Jerusalem. Jesus will come down to split the Mount of Olives to make a way of escape for the Jews Zechariah 14:1-5a

Why do you keep insisting on this, since it is impossible! John did not write as a jigsaw puzzle all jumbled up!

PLEASE follow this logic:

11:2 The Beast must get to Jerusalem so he can enter the temple: right? How could he do it if he was living in Syria?

But IN THIS VERSE is the 42 months he will trample.

Now you have a choice: does the city get trampled during the first half of last half?

If you say last half, you are correct, but then you have a HUGE Problem. Since it will be 42 months to the end, HE CANNOT possibly arrive in Jerusalem Three or four months before the abomination. If so, the trampling would be LONGER than 42 months.

NO, The timing of 11:2 MUST be shorter than 15 days (think rounding) before the abomination. I just guess a week or so. Could be 4 days. Cannot possibly be the day before. Why? The two witnesses.

What then is verse 3 about? Whatever it is about MUST COME in chronology AFTER the Beast arrives. But we don't even need to guess here.

We KNOW verse two must be limited to between 15 days and 3 1/2 days before the abomination. Therefore, since verse 3 follows verse 2, the two witnesses must show up AFTER the Beast. John would just NOT write it in reverse of the way it will happen!

The two witnesses MUST testify in the FUTURE of this verse 3, not in the PAST of verse 3, as you say. Why? John uses REAL FUTURE TENSE verbs: "they shall prophesy." It is very simple, John could not possibly use a future tense verb for a past action. Please note, MUST of John's verbs are Aorist tense, not inflected to show any timing whatsoever. Also, since there is NO MENTION of them before this, we can be ASSURED that they SHOW UP at the first verse of mention.

Since we KNOW they must testify for 1260 days, STARTING just before the midpoint, and testify all the way to chapter 16, near the end, then what is John's timing in verse 3? It MUST BE 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint. The earthquake at their resurrection is the VERY SAME earthquake at the 7th vial that ENDS the week.

See how perfect is John's chronology? Therefore, 12:3 is EXACTLY 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet that divides the week.

"When God causes the 10 kings to destroy Harlot Babylon"

What can I say? This theory is MILES off base. Do you not understand WHO this Mystery Babylon is? Do you not understand WHY chapters 17 and 18 are there instead of earlier where you wish them to be?
If you erase your slate and start over using my axiom above, you will be miles ahead! Did you not read the last verse of chapter 17? John TELLS US who he means by Mystery Babylon!

The Great Wh*re Babylon is "that great city." Again, John TELLS us in a previous chapter what city. It is the city where Jesus was crucified.

Do you not understand that the GREATEST deception ever to come upon a people will come from the city of Jerusalem while the Beast makes his home there? He will claim to be "Jesus Christ," the Messiah to come! He will have MIRACLES to prove it, and will deceive the ENTIRE WORLD, save those that have their names written in heaven. NO WONDER God calls His beloved city "the great Wh*re Babylon.

Now can you see why chapters 17 and 18 follow chapter 16? Did you not read how these 10 kings give their power to the Beast for ONE HOUR? It is the LAST hour, when Jerusalem is destroyed, and burned, then also destroyed with the mighty earthquake, when the Old Testament saints arise at the 7th vial. Chapters 17 and 18 give us a close up view of her destruction. Eric, I am amazed you have not seen this.

No wonder you find the need to rearrange John's great book! It is because of your thinking! PLEASE, change your thinking! Don't rearrange the book!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

The Language of the Church is completely missing from the time of Rev.

There were saints in the OT also, but the Church we have gospel of Christ, Brothers, Children of God. People take one word "Saints" and ignore everything else. They count trumpets, days, numbers, in attempts to put something spiritual into a Natural mess.

God tell us to count trumpets?? We are told when to count something, but we need to get it sorted like some book or file system, so we count away things, not even counted.

One Angel sounded the Gospel, "Where is the Church?"

The White horse, the rider had a bow, the Pope, his cross is a bow, he rides in a white car, to the natural man, good enough for him, forgetting that the Roman Catholic Church lost all power, and certainly not in any position to do much of anything.

Jesus Is Lord.

What on earth is this? It was GOD That counted (numbered) the trumpets! (As well as the seals, woes and vials).

God would NEVER use the color white for anything other than to represent RIGHTEOUSNESS. Thinking the white horse is the antichrist or any thing not righteous, is doing God a great DIS-service.

Do you believe this book or not?

Coop

 

[rodd]

To lecoop,

Yes I agree the 7<SUP>th</SUP> trumpet judgment and 3<SUP>rd</SUP> woe last for the 3.5 years of the great tribulation.
Sorry, I thought you would understand I meant the 7<SUP>th</SUP> trumpet judgment when said 7<SUP>th</SUP> trumpet. The trumpets start events as signals and the blast is short not for 3.5 years as you thought I believed.

Revelation chapter 11 over laps or happens at the same time as all of the seal judgments, Thunder judgments, and the first 6 trumpet judgments.

Think of Revelation as scenes in a movie, some happen on earth, some scenes are in heaven.

I wish you and I could sit down with our Bibles and talk about the Bible in person. It would be great fun. Posting is hard for me. It is worth the effort to help all who read the post.

Chapters in the first half of the tribulation are as follows: 6 through 11:14, 12:6, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18

History 12:1-5

Chapters in the last half of the tribulation are as follows: 11:15-19, 12:7-17, 16, 19, 20


Revelation 11:1-2 happen in the first half of the tribulation after the temple is built but before the middle of the tribulation. The antichrist will go into the temple and declare that he is god after he has control of the rest of the world. The abomination of desolation will be set up in the temple 30 days before the last half of the tribulation begins Daniel 12:11.

Revelation 11:3-14 happens during the 1260 days of the fist half of the tribulation. When God causes the 10 kings to destroy Harlot Babylon and give their power to the antichrist Revelation 17:16-18, the antichrist will kill the two prophets and take control of Jerusalem. Jesus will come down to split the Mount of Olives to make a way of escape for the Jews Zechariah 14:1-5a

Total agreement with your first paragraph!

But not the second.

When Zoroastrian occultism openly takes over, when Antichrist claims to be God, he and his friends in the vatican will have no use for the cover of the Roman Catholic Church, the Vatican, this will be the time of her destruction, after the mid stage, IMO.
Her destruction is already being planned with open revelations of pedophilia and homosexual deviacy.
They are even claiming acceptance of intelligent alien live, the list goes on, they are the occult themselves, preparing for the next phase, Antichrists' occultic NWO of the Ages.

Christians will see the first half of the tribulation, not the second, scripture beyond that point is directed to Israel.

 

[rodd]

What on earth is this? It was GOD That counted (numbered) the trumpets! (As well as the seals, woes and vials).

God would NEVER use the color white for anything other than to represent RIGHTEOUSNESS. Thinking the white horse is the antichrist or any thing not righteous, is doing God a great DIS-service.

Do you believe this book or not?

Coop

That's why the actions of the whitehorse are the actions of the global occult elite as in the false-flag attack on the trade-centres that created the white horse.

That's right! GOD would never do that, but scripture is trying to tell you this is what has happened.

911, was an inside job, now the forces of the west are entrenched in the mid east and eventual war is inevidable. This is all part of the build up to the tribulation, which was the prophetic role of the horseman of Dan.

The horseman are the pivitol events of the Occult prior to the Tribulation, the peace treaty of 7yrs between Jew and Arab will cross us over into that time, meanwhile the horsemen keep riding, playing the enslavement terrorism card, stealing public taxes, and ultimately depopulation and matial law in the west.

 

[Brother Mike]

umm.

lecoop

What on earth is this? It was GOD That counted (numbered) the trumpets! (As well as the seals, woes and vials).

God would NEVER use the color white for anything other than to represent RIGHTEOUSNESS. Thinking the white horse is the antichrist or any thing not righteous, is doing God a great DIS-service.

Do you believe this book or not?

I can give you scriptures where we are told to consider or count. God certainly number a set of trumpets. A trumpet is the start or end of event, or a series of trumpets.

God never said count trumpets, God counted them for us. It's us in our own natural ability wanting to understand something spiritual.

So, Give me scripture where God said consider the trumpets, counting them to track events?


White always means righteous.......

So we have one good horse, and some bad horses? Or do we have all color to bring the word of the Lord to pass?

Jdg 5:10 Speak, ye that ride on white asses, ye that sit in judgment, and walk by the way.

These good guys, or bad guys?


Num 12:10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

Being Leprous righteous?

Ecc 9:8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.

could there be a difference between White Garment, and White animal?

White represents no spot in certain context. It's not limited to just righteousness, but also described plague, and specks, and color of animals. It was used to describe teeth once.

What always means what again? Righteousness? You have that scripture for me?

Do you believe this book or not?

your pride makes me feel that I should be involved with this confusing thread. Trust me, you don't want that.

I do want your scripture that says White always means righteousness though. According to rule 7 of the forum, please provide scripture when making a biblical point.

I am waiting.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

It is my belief that the Dragon, Satan himself, possesses the Beast and uses him to go after the woman. I believe she (those living in Judea that flee) will be protected as Israel was when they were escaping Egypt.

So failing in getting the woman, the Beast turns to the remnant of her seed. Of course, that means the body of Christ on earth, believers in Jesus Christ. However, John uses a very interesting word, the "remnant." Why did he use this? Because the body of Christ left on the earth at this time is ONLY a remnant - the MAIN LOAD went out with the rapture, 3 1/2 years previous. There is only a remnant left on earth that love Jesus.

Coop

I agree with this quote by lecoop.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Antichrist the rider of the white horse

Revelation 6:1–2 KJV
6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Second Thessalonians 2 explains that everyone who hears but does not believe the truth of the gospel of Jesus before the rapture will

believe the lie of Antichrist. This is because God will send them strong delusion. Therefore, God will give the Antichrist the crown of

leadership in the Christian nations, as indicated in Revelation 6:2. The Antichrist will sign a treaty with many that divides the land of

Israel and supposedly brings lasting peace. The Antichrist will come on a white horse as a peace enforcer when Egypt and Syria break the

peace treaty as described in Daniel 11:40–43a below.

The Antichrist on the White Horse

Daniel 11:40–43 KJV
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt:

Daniel informs us that the king of the south will push at or attack the Antichrist. This represents Egypt attacking the Antichrist, who will

have divided the land. The king of Syria from north of Israel will also attack the Antichrist.

You may wonder how I concluded that Egypt and Syria will attack the Antichrist. The king of Egypt from the south and the king of Assyria

from the north are first mentioned in the first half of this chapter. They will be the same countries later in the chapter, but later in time.