Mid-tribulation

Eric E Stahl · Feb 16, 2012

lecoop said:
I agree, in part: the Antichrist will imitate Christ. But he will NOT come literally on a white horse. Neither is Rev. 6:2 about him at ALL.

PLEASE show us some tiny hint at least, that shows you the white horse is to represent the antichrist.

But you cannot, because God NEVER meant for the white horse to represent the Antichrist. God used a fiery red dragon for that!

Please understand, these horses are SYMBOLISM. The white horse in Rev. 19 is REAL.

Coop

lecoop · Feb 16, 2012

Brother Mike said:
lecoop
Lecoop, I don't suppose your not able to provide scripture for that?
I certain hope you don't believe that. Lets stick with the WORD brother..

Rodd:

kevinlb63
Sounds like you boys are having a wild time here, but here is the deal....... We have to stop these jabs...... just ask for scripture, and if the person don't get it, then they don't get it.

Lecoop, you seem to have gone way out there Brother. No more Catholic stuff, that can't be proven.

Lets tone it down, and walk like we know Jesus. Eric seems to be doing a fine job conducting himself, and he started the thread. Lets hope the rest of you shape up, and are able to continue posting.

Thank you.

First, we KNOW that hell exists. There is plenty of scripture backing that up. I don't think I need to post any scripture on that.

Next, "personal testimony" is also scriptural. Paul gave personal testimony several times. Visions are also very scriptural. Much of the book of Daniel and Revelation are of visions. Yet for John, he WENT to heaven. Therefore, I think it is valid to point out that there is a person testimony of people that Jesus has taken to hell. OF COURSE we don't equate personal testimony with scripture, but if it AGREES with scripture, again, I think it is valid. If those in Paul's day did not believe in the personal testimony of Paul, the church would have been much slower to start.

Finally, I have read her personal testimony several times. There is nothing in it that is against scripture; rather it is in agreement with scripture. I think we need at least to be aware that such testimony exists.

Coop

lecoop · Feb 16, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
<style>  </style> The red dragon is the devil not the antichrist. Revelation chapter 12

It is the rider on the white horse that is the antichrist.

God not only will give the antichrist the crown in the Christian nations,

God will make the antichrist world ruler Revelation 17:16-18.

Rev 17
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30979">3</sup>So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Are you telling us that the great wh*re Babylon is greater than Satan and is exerting some kind of rulership over him?

Sorry, not a chance! This scarlet colored Beast represents both the Antichrist AND His empire.

Please provide ACCURATE scriptural proof of the crown you speak of? And you CANNOT use Rev 6:2. That is not about the Antichrist.

Coop

lecoop · Feb 16, 2012

kevinlb63 said:
i am sorry i got ill but Brother Mike when i see someone say something that is way off
i will prove what i have to say and what i posted is documented truth,. and that is all i ment. the roman church has power and want loose it untill christ come back. and chad the one that made this website will find in my favor.

Kevin, as long as you don't claim that the pope is the antichrist, I am fine with that. But we must keep in mind, there ARE some of God's people, whose names are written in heaven, IN the Catholic church.
That too can be proven.

Coop

Brother Mike · Feb 16, 2012

Ah.......

I have to cut into the Thread again, so lets hope everyone loves everyone and I can get back to defending Eternal punishment quickly. You guys can figure out the end of the World.

lecoop
Ah, I see........ God took someone for a visit to Hell. Got it. You have to understand "Get fired up Kevin" as to provoke in some way then act as if your story about a Catholic seeing the Pope in Hell was biblical fact sort of threw us off a bit.

Had you left the "Get fired up Kevin" out, and told the story a little different, it would have been perceived a little bit better. I fully believe God does show us wonderful things, and the story might be true. Same with Mary K. Baxter who Jesus took her to Hell and showed her around.

The problem that arises is that we are talking about the end times "I think" here and even though I believe in Eternal Hell and Believe Mary K Baxter went to Hell, I would never mention that here (Or any where else on the forum) because that is not recognized as valid truth here. Just the 66 books Brother!!! or else we become like the Catholic, quoting Dr. Seuss, and some Pope to also prove a point as Truth.

Kevin:

i am sorry i got ill but Brother Mike when i see someone say something that is way off
i will prove what i have to say and what i posted is documented truth,. and that is all i ment. the roman church has power and want loose it untill christ come back. and chad the one that made this website will find in my favor.

Chad and I certainly agree that the Roman Catholic system is a lie, and corrupt. No issue there, but We both do not like to see put downs, or people trying to provoke one another.

For example:
"Your so blind, you would not even know a scripture if it came up and bit you"

A comment here, or there in frustration, ya, OK, Maybe, but when all three of you jump in the ring, we need to get things calmed down.

Jesus Is Lord.

Chad · Feb 16, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
<style>  </style> The red dragon is the devil not the antichrist. Revelation chapter 12

It is the rider on the white horse that is the antichrist.

God not only will give the antichrist the crown in the Christian nations,

God will make the antichrist world ruler Revelation 17:16-18.

That is 100% unbiblical. You need to stop posting immediately and start studying the Word *IN PRAYER*. Any more false teaching from you will result in your account being closed.

Eric E Stahl · Feb 16, 2012

understanding

Chad said:
That is 100% unbiblical. You need to stop posting immediately and start studying the Word *IN PRAYER*. Any more false teaching from you will result in your account being closed.

Brother Mike · Feb 16, 2012

Well............

Eric

This is the reason I am against counting when God never mentioned to count, or does mention to Count, we count. This thread has become confusing, and some may have been misunderstood.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (Added by translators) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We get The English Word Apostasy from Falling away. True, many churches and denominations have voted Gay clergy, and many have fallen away in Apostasy. Jesus seven letters to the Churches in Asia Minor (Modern Day Turkey) to be included in Revelation would indicate the same issues anyway before the End.

The real Meaning of Falling away in the Greek just means to depart, or to remove one self from. The Word only used one other time in Acts describing the departure of Moses.

The Restrainer:
The "He" is not the Holy Spirit, The "He" is Jesus, and He takes his body with him. The Earth will be devoid of Spirit filled believers, and hence we see no Language of the Church in Rev at all. If the Holy Spirit leaves, then nobody makes it out, and we know that is not the case, unless you place the Rapture of the Church during Mid-Trib.

There will be many during the Tribulation rescued.

Antichrist.

God not only will give the antichrist the crown in the Christian nations,

God will make the antichrist world ruler Revelation 17:16-18.

Eric, God never does any such thing, Anything the Antichrist declares or is given Is Him Exalting Himself, God is not exalting him.

In Fact, Rev is not even about Satan, or even about the Antichrist. Just Satan's last ditch effort to exhort some type of Control while the World is in Chaos. God is not working with him.

Rev is about God, it's about the people on the earth. people are not torment, refusing to repent because of anything Satan is doing. They reject God.

In this Effort, Satan has to also overcome and get around all the plagues, vials and trumpet events. He has to do something with the mess of the Muslim nations that will not follow him and his rule, He has to do something with the new age movement he foolishly created. Satan is also having a hard time, with other Armies...... Tribulation will be Satan's worse failure.

Rev is not about Satan, this is not Hollywood to build up a big bad Antichrist who could not even kill the two witness, keeping them dead.

Rev is about God, His Glory, and his dealing with those that have rejected his truth.

Jesus Is Lord.

Eric E Stahl · Feb 16, 2012

Brother Mike said:
Eric

This is the reason I am against counting when God never mentioned to count, or does mention to Count, we count. This thread has become confusing, and some may have been misunderstood.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (Added by translators) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We get The English Word Apostasy from Falling away. True, many churches and denominations have voted Gay clergy, and many have fallen away in Apostasy. Jesus seven letters to the Churches in Asia Minor (Modern Day Turkey) to be included in Revelation would indicate the same issues anyway before the End.

The real Meaning of Falling away in the Greek just means to depart, or to remove one self from. The Word only used one other time in Acts describing the departure of Moses.

The Restrainer:
The "He" is not the Holy Spirit, The "He" is Jesus, and He takes his body with him. The Earth will be devoid of Spirit filled believers, and hence we see no Language of the Church in Rev at all. If the Holy Spirit leaves, then nobody makes it out, and we know that is not the case, unless you place the Rapture of the Church during Mid-Trib.

There will be many during the Tribulation rescued.

Antichrist.

Eric, God never does any such thing, Anything the Antichrist declares or is given Is Him Exalting Himself, God is not exalting him.

In Fact, Rev is not even about Satan, or even about the Antichrist. Just Satan's last ditch effort to exhort some type of Control while the World is in Chaos. God is not working with him.

Rev is about God, it's about the people on the earth. people are not torment, refusing to repent because of anything Satan is doing. They reject God.

In this Effort, Satan has to also overcome and get around all the plagues, vials and trumpet events. He has to do something with the mess of the Muslim nations that will not follow him and his rule, He has to do something with the new age movement he foolishly created. Satan is also having a hard time, with other Armies...... Tribulation will be Satan's worse failure.

Rev is not about Satan, this is not Hollywood to build up a big bad Antichrist who could not even kill the two witness, keeping them dead.

Rev is about God, His Glory, and his dealing with those that have rejected his truth.

Jesus Is Lord.

Thank you for responding.The following verses indicate to me that God will use the antichrist as a judgment on the earth.

<style>  </style> God will raise up the antichrist as a judgment on Israel and those who rejected Jesus.

Zechariah 11:16–17 KJV
16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

God says He will raise up a shepherd for Israel that will have no mercy for the people. Please remember that God sends strong delusion to the people who have heard the truth of the gospel but have rejected it, so they will believe the lies of the Antichrist and follow his leadership 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12. Someone or something will wound him in the arm and right eye. The arm will be useless and the eye will be blind.

After the 1000 year kingdom age God releases the devil to use him to test the people also.

Brother Mike · Feb 16, 2012

Thank you Eric.....

Eric.....

God will raise up the antichrist as a judgment on Israel and those who rejected Jesus.

Eric, everything God says will happen. Now if God foretold the events, or spoke them, I guess it don't matter, its going to happen regardless.

Antichrist, (Anti anointing) or son of perdition. We see He was "Given" power, power to even bring fire down, Power to make war with the saints.

Power by who?

Who in the past had the ability to reign down fire? Check it out before answering.

In a sense, God spoke all these things, so it will happen, God is responsible. God does send a strong delusion, so things won't be so clear as to right choices, but the ones that received the strong delusion were never interested in right choices.

Once we are out of the way, the greater one in us, is no longer operating in the Church. You would have to understand our authority, anointing, and Power from High to even grasp this concept. If we are here, Satan does not stand a chance.

Satan gets his full ability back. We are no longer here with the power of our words and the name of Jesus to hinder him.

I understand your connection, but we don't have scripture stating God made the Antichrist judge over God's own people. (We have a assumption/Connection) If you read the small part the Antichrist gets in REV, and compare to all that God is doing, it's God the Earth has to be concerned about.

So, it's not God, it's Satan, and his ability to reign as a free agent again, which is what sealed his fate to begin with.

Jesus Is Lord.

lecoop · Feb 16, 2012

Brother Mike said:
Eric.....

Eric, everything God says will happen. Now if God foretold the events, or spoke them, I guess it don't matter, its going to happen regardless.

Antichrist, (Anti anointing) or son of perdition. We see He was "Given" power, power to even bring fire down, Power to make war with the saints.

Power by who?

Who in the past had the ability to reign down fire? Check it out before answering.

In a sense, God spoke all these things, so it will happen, God is responsible. God does send a strong delusion, so things won't be so clear as to right choices, but the ones that received the strong delusion were never interested in right choices.

Once we are out of the way, the greater one in us, is no longer operating in the Church. You would have to understand our authority, anointing, and Power from High to even grasp this concept. If we are here, Satan does not stand a chance.

Satan gets his full ability back. We are no longer here with the power of our words and the name of Jesus to hinder him.

I understand your connection, but we don't have scripture stating God made the Antichrist judge over God's own people. (We have a assumption/Connection) If you read the small part the Antichrist gets in REV, and compare to all that God is doing, it's God the Earth has to be concerned about.

So, it's not God, it's Satan, and his ability to reign as a free agent again, which is what sealed his fate to begin with.

Jesus Is Lord.

Good post Mike!!! Lots of wisdom here. The man of sin gets authority to overcome the saints. He gets it from Satan but that ONLY because God allows it. The whole world seems to want a world without God - so God will give them exactly what they think they want. He will allow Satan to control everything - for a limited time.

The Day of the Lord is just that: it is HIS day - His judgments. We have billions of people now; at the end perhaps only millions. People are going to get exactly what they think they want: a world without God.

Coop

lecoop · Feb 16, 2012

Brother Mike said:
Eric

This is the reason I am against counting when God never mentioned to count, or does mention to Count, we count. This thread has become confusing, and some may have been misunderstood.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (Added by translators) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We get The English Word Apostasy from Falling away. True, many churches and denominations have voted Gay clergy, and many have fallen away in Apostasy. Jesus seven letters to the Churches in Asia Minor (Modern Day Turkey) to be included in Revelation would indicate the same issues anyway before the End.

The real Meaning of Falling away in the Greek just means to depart, or to remove one self from. The Word only used one other time in Acts describing the departure of Moses.

The Restrainer:
The "He" is not the Holy Spirit, The "He" is Jesus, and He takes his body with him. The Earth will be devoid of Spirit filled believers, and hence we see no Language of the Church in Rev at all. If the Holy Spirit leaves, then nobody makes it out, and we know that is not the case, unless you place the Rapture of the Church during Mid-Trib.

There will be many during the Tribulation rescued.

Antichrist.

Eric, God never does any such thing, Anything the Antichrist declares or is given Is Him Exalting Himself, God is not exalting him.

In Fact, Rev is not even about Satan, or even about the Antichrist. Just Satan's last ditch effort to exhort some type of Control while the World is in Chaos. God is not working with him.

Rev is about God, it's about the people on the earth. people are not torment, refusing to repent because of anything Satan is doing. They reject God.

In this Effort, Satan has to also overcome and get around all the plagues, vials and trumpet events. He has to do something with the mess of the Muslim nations that will not follow him and his rule, He has to do something with the new age movement he foolishly created. Satan is also having a hard time, with other Armies...... Tribulation will be Satan's worse failure.

Rev is not about Satan, this is not Hollywood to build up a big bad Antichrist who could not even kill the two witness, keeping them dead.

Rev is about God, His Glory, and his dealing with those that have rejected his truth.

Jesus Is Lord.

Another great post, Mike. I agree, apostasia was correctly translated as a departing in several of the first English translations. Paul DID talk about a great and significant departing in his first letter - he NEVER talked about a significant falling away. Next, falling away simply does not fit the theme of this passage.

But I do have a question:

"There will be many during the Tribulation rescued." What did you have in mind here?

Surely those that flee in to the wilderness with make it through.
But the ONLY WAY into heaven after the rapture will be through death.

I agree again: the Beast in his attempt to hunt down and destroy all who refuse the mark, will be brought to a halt by the vials and associated plagues. God will shorten those days of great tribulation by the vials.

But I think I disagree. The Beast is going to get authority from ALL nations. It is written that the entire world follows him and worships him. It seems he becomes the supreme leader of the world.

Any ideas on the ten nations that throw in with him for an hour? It is my idea, only an idea, that they will be European nations: the western leg of the image of Daniel chapter 2. The Eastern nations will be the first controlled by the Beast.

Coop

lecoop · Feb 16, 2012

Brother Mike said:
I have to cut into the Thread again, so lets hope everyone loves everyone and I can get back to defending Eternal punishment quickly. You guys can figure out the end of the World.

lecoop
Ah, I see........ God took someone for a visit to Hell. Got it. You have to understand "Get fired up Kevin" as to provoke in some way then act as if your story about a Catholic seeing the Pope in Hell was biblical fact sort of threw us off a bit.

I understand! He he! I was just tickled that Kevin got really fired up as in showing *****! I was sort of congratulating him!!

Had you left the "Get fired up Kevin" out, and told the story a little different, it would have been perceived a little bit better. I fully believe God does show us wonderful things, and the story might be true. Same with Mary K. Baxter who Jesus took her to Hell and showed her around.

By now the list has really grown. God wishes to make SURE people believe in hell, for God knows it is a very real place. Too bad more people don't believe it. If all of these stories were not very close, we could wonder; but they all tell very similar things.

The problem that arises is that we are talking about the end times "I think" here and even though I believe in Eternal Hell and Believe Mary K Baxter went to Hell, I would never mention that here (Or any where else on the forum) because that is not recognized as valid truth here. Just the 66 books Brother!!! or else we become like the Catholic, quoting Dr. Seuss, and some Pope to also prove a point as Truth.

I understand. Of course Scripture is supreme. I NEVER put anything else ahead of scripture. Indeed, the very reason everyone that is in hell IS in hell, is written in scripture for all to see. It is impossible to con God. He has said, for example, that fornicators will NOT enter into heaven. How many of our brothers and sisters in Christ truly believe this?

I guess I wanted to mention it only to make others aware of its existence. There is much out there of great benefit, that people don't even know about. For example, I am convinced God has been dictating letters to his church. He is on # 133 I believe. But many in the church don't even know this. Some believers don't seem to think that God would use the internet!

Coop

Brother Mike · Feb 16, 2012

Praise God.

I understand! He he! I was just tickled that Kevin got really fired up as in showing *****! I was sort of congratulating him!!

ya, well......... Chad posted in here, and Chad don't play games, so if I can do anything to keep the peace, I will at least try.

I agree again: the Beast in his attempt to hunt down and destroy all who refuse the mark, will be brought to a halt by the vials and associated plagues. God will shorten those days of great tribulation by the vials.

But I think I disagree. The Beast is going to get authority from ALL nations. It is written that the entire world follows him and worships him. It seems he becomes the supreme leader of the world.

I understand... Lets check our spirit and read below.

Satan is the only one in the bible to bring down fire.... Look at Job, look at Elijah, look at Sodom. Satan is the god of this world still.
When the disciples asked if they should call down fire on those that did not receive, Jesus said........... You know not what spirit you are of."
That pretty much confirmed to me that God just stepped out of the way and let Satan do what he does best.... Kill, steal and destroy.

A world without God, is one without hope. Know God!!!, know his son.

The AC "Antichrist" Supreme Leader? Lets see.

The Antichrist will have his work cut out for him. He has many problems, not counting God's judgement that is taking place, decimating the AC's own armies and people.

Satan and his Ace team of bad guys are the controlling spirits over most of the World governments now. Just like in Danial. The Antichrist is given this power Rev 13:7.....
and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

This scripture does not denote all nations, just footholds in all the kindreds or those representing other Nations. The AC can't be in all places at one.

Your right, He comes out of Europe, and with the horse riders bringing famine and hunger, he see an opportunity to set up his Mark. I doubt there will be time to set up an elaborate computer system with all the destruction going on. God knew who bowed down to Baal, so a Real visible mark should not be needed. Then again, it may be. Time is short though..

The horse riders are told not to hurt the oil or wine, so it will not be a complete famine, but enough for the AC to get followers.

The AC still has issues though. He has Russia, China, Maybe the U.S unless we hop in with Europe. He has all the Muslim nations, and he has the massive New Age movement that will not believe in his supreme dictatorship as god.

He also does not regard women, so he is homosexual, and will promote freedom of choice.

Remember, Satan's Goal was to exalt his throne above the stars of God. Angles being stars? Who knows, but it's pretty high. All these false religions are not going to cut it for him. They have to Go!!!

Setting up a peace Treaty with Israel puts him in pretty good position to wipe out all the Muslim nations. He then destroys the Babylon system which represents all the other false religions. He still has China and possibly Russia to deal with. Those two nations are not going to follow any Antichrist.

So, we see a limited control by the Antichrist, we see him struggle. God hinders him by sending the Two witnesses and making him look very bad to those that are following him. God is certainly not on his side.

His Mark and range of control will not extend to the whole world, He will only focus on the things he considers threats to him being god.

In the end, he gets China into agreement, and the massive armies meet our Lord in battle............

Remember, he accomplishes all this with Massive Judgements coming from God. This is not going to be a cake walk for him.

The antichrist has a miserable life ahead of him.

Jesus is Lord.

David777 · Feb 17, 2012

Hello Mike.

Hello Mike, I noticed in your post the following line:

You were translating the word Koine Greek word apostasia in 2Thessalonians 2:3. Then you stated that apostasia means to depart. Inferring that this was the rapture?

Here i will highlight what you said below:

The real Meaning of Falling away in the Greek just means to depart, or to remove one self from.

Now I will quote the verses from 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

2 Thessalonians 2

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God

Here are some other verses to consider,

Matthew 24
9 Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

1 Timothy 4:1 – But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

Revelation 2:5 But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent

Hebrews 4:11 – Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Apostasia has a long history in Greek literature of describing rebellion, ie: common usage in the New Testament era.

"Apostasia" is only used one other time in the New Testament, in Acts 21:21 to describe "going away from" the teachings of Moses.

Lets look at Acts 21:21

but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake(desert) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

It is clear that apostasia does not mean anything else other than desertion or falling away.

At the time the New Testament letters were written the authors thought Jesus would return very soon. Hence the repeated verses addressing perseverance and patience, etc. Knowing that Jesus stated as in Matthew 24 that many would fall away, they protected and reminded the hearers not to fall away.

I have more info on this if you wish.

Brother Mike · Feb 17, 2012

Thank you.

Thank you David777...... For a long time I thought along the same lines you did........ Apostasy certainly means to go against the truth.

Even in these days, we see whole church denominations vote for gay leadership, not small denominations, but major ones.

However, it never set right with me in what Paul was saying, I just could not fully explain it.

couple of Greek words used....
aphistēmi and parapiptō

One to turn aside in error, the other to depart, why did not Paul (Holy Spirit use Aphistemi?

Acts 21:21 They departed, deserted, left Moses teachings. Parapipto would fit, as it means to fail, or be in error. Why use apostasia

The Biggest problem I have with Bible Greek concordances, is they often give their definitions in what "THEY" believe the context of the scriptures us them.

You will find many definitions that are not true, but interpreted by Doctrine. Thayer seems to be good at this at times. The NASEC just gives definition by use, and Strongs also gives meaning by use.

apostasia is a compound of Two Greek words, you have to find out what the Colleges say about it. It's two Greek word put together.

APO-
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

of separation
1. of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
2. of separation of a part from the whole
  1. where of a whole some part is taken
3. of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
4. of a state of separation, that is of distance
  1. physical, of distance of place
  2. temporal, of distance of time
of origin
1. of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
2. of origin of a cause

Stasis

a standing, station, state
an insurrection
strife, insurrection

Then we have the other issue................

that day shall not come 2Th 2:3

Those that believe in a Post trib hold on to something that the translators added to the Word of God.

Even the Amplified Beat it up pretty bad, trying to please both the added text, and without the added text. Adding in Apostasy twice, with two different meanings.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [1] apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great [2] falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),(1)

The Geneva bible 1587 came close, but sort of confusing, the departure is first, and the son of perdition revealed.

HNV
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

The KJV is correct.......... without the added text by the translators, which is put in greyed Italic.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

All together........... now!!
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (Departure) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Who, the Lord Jesus and his body, must be removed first the whole topic of conversation.

You may not agree David, but at least you see how I came to my conclusion.

Your blessed.

Jesus Is Lord.

David777 · Feb 17, 2012

Hello Mike.

Always a pleasure to discuss a matter with you, you do listen and respond in the appropriate manner.

I will quote from your post,

The Biggest problem I have with Bible Greek concordances, is they often give their
definitions in what "THEY" believe the context of the scriptures use them.

You will find many definitions that are not true, but interpreted by Doctrine.
Thayer seems to be good at this at times. The NASEC just gives definition by use,
and Strongs also gives meaning by use.

I have noticed this also, understandable when you consider the theological background
of the authors. This makes translation even more difficult, when concordances are
contaminated by theology.

Here Mike is the answer please compare these two verses.

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first...

Matthew 24
10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

Paul is just saying what Jesus said. I hope you can see the mirror image. They are both referring to the precise event.
There is no other translation possible.

lecoop · Feb 17, 2012

David777 said:
Always a pleasure to discuss a matter with you, you do listen and respond in the appropriate manner.

I will quote from your post,

The Biggest problem I have with Bible Greek concordances, is they often give their
definitions in what "THEY" believe the context of the scriptures use them.

You will find many definitions that are not true, but interpreted by Doctrine.
Thayer seems to be good at this at times. The NASEC just gives definition by use,
and Strongs also gives meaning by use.

I have noticed this also, understandable when you consider the theological background
of the authors. This makes translation even more difficult, when concordances are
contaminated by theology.

Here Mike is the answer please compare these two verses.

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first...

Matthew 24
10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

Paul is just saying what Jesus said. I hope you can see the mirror image. They are both referring to the precise event.
There is no other translation possible.

David, there is a problem with the KJV idea of a "falling way." First, there is no information at all given away by the word "apostasia" as to WHAT the fallling away (departing) is FROM. Every one, probably even the KJV people, ASSUME it is a falling away from truth. But this is not just some general departing: it is a very specific one. And here is the problem: the THEME of this passage is not a falling away, but rather a "gathering" via the rapture of the church. That is Paul's theme.

So let's really analyze this: Let's examine the CONTEXT.

One can argue until the cows come home, but without examining the CONTEXT, one will remain in the dark. Any verse can been misunderstood if pulled from its context.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

What is the THEME of this passage? It is His coming and our gathering together unto Him. What verse should this immediately remind one of? What did Paul tells us of the "gathering?" Of course, it is this:

1 Thes. 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So THIS is the theme of Paul's next few verses. Now, let's analyze these verses:

7 For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until [c]he who restrains is taken out of the way.

8 And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming.

What do we find here? Something is preventing the Antichrist from being revealed. This something is RESTRAINING him - keeping him from being revealed.

And finally, we see that at some point in time, that something doing the restraining will be "taken out of the way."

6And now you know what is restraining him [from being revealed at this time]; it is so that he may be manifested (revealed) in his own [appointed] time.

Paul gives is the same information in this verse. Something is restraining the Antichrist from being revealed, because there is an appointed time for him to be revealed.

But here we see something very interesting: Paul writes, "and now you know what is restraining!! HOW CAN WE KNOW? Why would Paul write those words? There is only one good reason: Paul just TOLD US, but did it in a way not easily seen, so he tells us that we can now know, so we will DIG DEEP into what he just wrote.

Since Paul said "and now you know," all we need do is back up and find something that is "taken out of the way," and the man of sin revealed. Is that difficult?

5Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things?

Is there anything taken out of the way here? No. Nothing is departed, removed or taken out of the way here. Nothing revealed. But, here we do find that Paul is talking about something that he has told them before. It is NOT some new idea.

4Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.

Here we see that the man of sin HAS ALREADY BEEN REVEALED and is in the temple proclaiming that he is God! So at this time, the restrainer has been TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. But, in this verse, we do not find anything "taken out of the way."

3Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition)

Do we find something "taken out of the way" here? Certainly we do!!! Do we find the revealing of the Antichrist here? Certainly we do! But, we understand something taken out of the way, only if we see apostasia as a "departure." A general falling away from truth, just does not compute with "taken out of the way." Since the man of sin IS REVEALED in this verse, then we must go by the context of verses 6-8, which tells us that the one restraining is "taken out of the way."

Some might argue that "taken out of the way" is in itself a bad translation. But "gone from the midst" will STILL be in context, a departure: the rapture of the church.

So when we take the entire context of this passage, the best translation is that Paul meant the departure of the church, and wrote the word "apostasia." Why not make it plain? If I could guess, Paul wrote this so that any Roman reading it would be clueless to its meaning, and only those whom he had taught personally would understand.

Did Paul previously teach them of the rapture? Certainly he did! Does the bible give us any indication that the church could restrain the Antichrist? Certainly it does. Paul teaches us that we have been raised with Christ FAR ABOVE all demons and the power of the devil. We do indeed, restrain evil. But one day we, the church, will be "taken out of the way," or gone from the midst.

Coop

lecoop · Feb 17, 2012

Brother Mike said:
ya, well......... Chad posted in here, and Chad don't play games, so if I can do anything to keep the peace, I will at least try.

I understand... Lets check our spirit and read below.

Satan is the only one in the bible to bring down fire.... Look at Job, look at Elijah, look at Sodom. Satan is the god of this world still.
When the disciples asked if they should call down fire on those that did not receive, Jesus said........... You know not what spirit you are of."
That pretty much confirmed to me that God just stepped out of the way and let Satan do what he does best.... Kill, steal and destroy.

A world without God, is one without hope. Know God!!!, know his son.

The AC "Antichrist" Supreme Leader? Lets see.

The Antichrist will have his work cut out for him. He has many problems, not counting God's judgement that is taking place, decimating the AC's own armies and people.

Satan and his Ace team of bad guys are the controlling spirits over most of the World governments now. Just like in Danial. The Antichrist is given this power Rev 13:7.....
and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

This scripture does not denote all nations, just footholds in all the kindreds or those representing other Nations. The AC can't be in all places at one.

Your right, He comes out of Europe, and with the horse riders bringing famine and hunger, he see an opportunity to set up his Mark. I doubt there will be time to set up an elaborate computer system with all the destruction going on. God knew who bowed down to Baal, so a Real visible mark should not be needed. Then again, it may be. Time is short though..

The horse riders are told not to hurt the oil or wine, so it will not be a complete famine, but enough for the AC to get followers.

The AC still has issues though. He has Russia, China, Maybe the U.S unless we hop in with Europe. He has all the Muslim nations, and he has the massive New Age movement that will not believe in his supreme dictatorship as god.

He also does not regard women, so he is homosexual, and will promote freedom of choice.

Remember, Satan's Goal was to exalt his throne above the stars of God. Angles being stars? Who knows, but it's pretty high. All these false religions are not going to cut it for him. They have to Go!!!

Setting up a peace Treaty with Israel puts him in pretty good position to wipe out all the Muslim nations. He then destroys the Babylon system which represents all the other false religions. He still has China and possibly Russia to deal with. Those two nations are not going to follow any Antichrist.

So, we see a limited control by the Antichrist, we see him struggle. God hinders him by sending the Two witnesses and making him look very bad to those that are following him. God is certainly not on his side.

His Mark and range of control will not extend to the whole world, He will only focus on the things he considers threats to him being god.

In the end, he gets China into agreement, and the massive armies meet our Lord in battle............

Remember, he accomplishes all this with Massive Judgements coming from God. This is not going to be a cake walk for him.

The antichrist has a miserable life ahead of him.

Jesus is Lord.

ah! But WHAT is Satan's goal HERE, at the 70th week?

Rev 12
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30904">12</sup>Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30905">13</sup>And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30909">17</sup>And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So he is very angry, and wishes to take that anger out on the woman, being Israel. He chases those that flee, but God gives them supernatural protection, so his anger increases, and he then goes after the "remnant" of her seed, being CHRISTIANS - those that love Jesus. (Remnant because that is all that is left after the pre-trib rapture.)

Now, everything we read in chapter 13, comes from this verse. Creating the great image and forcing people to bow to it (think Nebuchadnezzar as a type), creating the Mark, and allowing NO ONE to by or sell without it - all these things spring from his great anger and being cast down, and being stymied at getting those that fled.

So now, his goal is to PUNISH God's people, and do his very best to STEAL them away from God, by way of the Mark. He is sure that some will weaken and take the mark. His goal is to punish God by stealing His people away from Him. Indeed, it is my guess that many saints will take the mark.

So the big question: how widespread with this mark be? I believe EVERY nation in the world will follow the Beast and enforce this mark. OF COURSE he cannot be on two places at the same time, but neither could Hitler. Things are going to be quite like there were in Poland and Germany for Jews, but this time it will be WORLDWIDE. There will be no place to hide.

Where is his authority limited? I cannot find any place. You quoted this: " power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations," then proceeded to disregard what it said (if I understood you correctly. Why? Will he be given power over all nations or not?

What did Daniel and Rev. both tell us? That the Antichrist will "overcome" the saints. Where? EVERYWHERE in the world - EVERY ethnic group. I am convinced by these verses that the mark will be enforced around the world. There will be NO place to hide. God's word to believers then, will be to refuse the mark, and die as a martyr: it will be the ONLY WAY to get to heaven. (unless you are in that group that fled and got God's protection.

Will ANY righteous survive? Yes, a few, because there will be sheep at the judgment of the nations. For those that believe in a post-trib rapture, DON'T count on surviving!

I disagree with you on the four horses. I am convinced you have taken them from the context. I am convinced they have been riding throughout the church age. We can certainly get into the scriptures of the CONTEXT of the seals and why this is scriptural truth.

Coop

David777 · Feb 17, 2012

Hello Lecoop.

This seems to be the crux of your argument,

Do we find something "taken out of the way" here? Certainly we do!!!
Do we find the revealing of the Antichrist here? Certainly we do!
But, we understand something taken out of the way, only if we see apostasia
as a "departure." A general falling away from truth, just does not compute
with "taken out of the way." Since the man of sin IS REVEALED in this verse,
then we must go by the context of verses 6-8, which tells us that the one
restraining is "taken out of the way."

I will examine the above and reply at some future time.

Somewhat busy at the moment, thanks.

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