NEW HEAVEN/NEW EARTH - THE ETERNAL HOME OF EVERY SAVED BELIEVER IN CHRIST JESUS

[Dave M]

So -- what questions does Dave M. have for me so that I can respond to them.

during the 1,000 rule of Christ, are all the saints going to rule with him, or just the one that came out of the tribulation and did not take the mark or were beheaded in the tribulation ????

here is the scripture that speaks of this

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[saginon]

If you're driving me and my nieces and nephews to uncle Louis cottage in Yosemite, where in many places there are no guardrails near treacherous cliffs, and I reach over and open your door and push you out of the car, and you received some bad scrapes and bruises but survived, and we all tumble over a cliff and my nieces and nephews die yet I survive, are you going to say in court that it wasn't my fault?

It makes no sense for Jesus to remove his elect from Armageddon to protect them, yet kill innocent people in the process. Killing people because they haven't accepted Christ as the result of a rapture does make God look sloppy and ruthless - and is not one of God's judgments. It is in fact one of the many ways todays prophecy experts have misled millions.

Many of you won't like this but the worse teachers of all are John Ankerberg and company. Ed Hindson, Jimmy DeYoung, Ron Rhodes, and Mark Hitchcock. These people all hold doctorates and have collectively written close to 200 books and people accept what they teach line, hook, and sinker.

 

[Hekuran]

If the Rapture occurred right now, all saved believers will meet with our Lord in the air and be with Him in the Current Heaven.

My reference of being transformed at the Rapture is not scriptural but is based on the fact we will be humans on earth and in the blink of an eye we will be with the Lord, in the Current Heaven we will be spirit and soul until we receive our new glorious bodies which is when we are truly transformed.

Would you agree with this, transformation is not the word, we will be changed in the blink of an eye would probably have been a better explanation.

I don't think that the Bible teaches that there will be a rapture. I believe Jesus is coming again in glory and that the dead will rise to glorified bodies.

The rapture seems to me to be an unnecessary appendage to all this, and not supported by scripture.

 

[Brother-Paul]

If you're driving me and my nieces and nephews to uncle Louis cottage in Yosemite, where in many places there are no guardrails near treacherous cliffs, and I reach over and open your door and push you out of the car, and you received some bad scrapes and bruises but survived, and we all tumble over a cliff and my nieces and nephews die yet I survive, are you going to say in court that it wasn't my fault?

It makes no sense for Jesus to remove his elect from Armageddon to protect them, yet kill innocent people in the process. Killing people because they haven't accepted Christ as the result of a rapture does make God look sloppy and ruthless - and is not one of God's judgments. It is in fact one of the many ways todays prophecy experts have misled millions.

Many of you won't like this but the worse teachers of all are John Ankerberg and company. Ed Hindson, Jimmy DeYoung, Ron Rhodes, and Mark Hitchcock. These people all hold doctorates and have collectively written close to 200 books and people accept what they teach line, hook, and sinker.

Surely we are not talking about who wrote what books @saginon, we are talking of what the Bible says about the various stages, the Word of God holds the Truth, we are told to search the scriptures, that said we are all different, some will search a little, some a bit more and other as much as is available for us. My view of studying The Word is each time I read I learn more. The more complicated parts, or shall I say the parts with more to consider, I draw up a table and build on it, like on post #92.

Sometimes a list is sufficient, other times we learn so much, then find other scriptures and reassess the situation. I have always been a constant assessor.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I don't think that the Bible teaches that there will be a rapture. I believe Jesus is coming again in glory and that the dead will rise to glorified bodies.

The rapture seems to me to be an unnecessary appendage to all this, and not supported by scripture.

That is the point of the study @Hekuran, we consider each aspect and seeing how they fit into the stages in the full picture.

At what stage do we receive glorified bodies?
At the Rapture?
At Christ's Return?
Will we have them during the 1000 year Millennium Period?
Will we receive them when the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Holy City, comes down onto the New Earth?

Considering 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Thess 4:16-17, John 5:29, Acts 24:15, Dan 12:2 and any other verses

 

[saginon]

I don't think that the Bible teaches that there will be a rapture. I believe Jesus is coming again in glory and that the dead will rise to glorified bodies.

The rapture seems to me to be an unnecessary appendage to all this, and not supported by scripture.

The only verse I know of that does support a rapture is this one. How would you explain what is underlined, bolded, and colored.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[saginon]

Double post

 

[Hekuran]

The only verse I know of that does support a rapture is this one. How would you explain what is underlined, bolded, and colored.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I agree that of all the verses cited in support of the rapture this is the strongest. But it still makes little sense. The event Paul describes here is Jesus's glorious return, and the resurrection of the dead. That's the absolute last moment I'd want to be flown off to heaven, and the moment I most look forward to on earth. What would be the point in going to heaven just as christ is establishing his eternal rule on earth?

The best approach to these verses is to think of a conquering king returning home. In Greek and Roman society, a triumphant king would come back from battle laden with the spoils of war. The citizens would come out of the city to meet the army as it approached and the would parade in together.

I think Paul is using this idea to help his readers imagine a cosmic glorified welcoming party for king Jesus.

 

[saginon]

I agree that of all the verses cited in support of the rapture this is the strongest. But it still makes little sense. The event Paul describes here is Jesus's glorious return, and the resurrection of the dead. That's the absolute last moment I'd want to be flown off to heaven, and the moment I most look forward to on earth. What would be the point in going to heaven just as Christ is establishing his eternal rule on earth?

I'm actually not sure what all takes place AFTER the resurrection. Lots of people - not just JW'S believe they return to reign with Christ on earth, which could well be the case. That does not answer the question about those being alive and remain NOT preceding the righteous dead in the resurrection - or why he would TWICE mention those that are ALIVE [and] remain...(remain meaning those who remain after the dead are resurrected FIRST)

"we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep"

It doesn't explain why Paul would say, "the dead in Christ shall rise first."

"and the dead in Christ shall rise first"

It doesn't explain why - after Paul said the dead shall rise first he would use the word - THEN...

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It doesn't explain why Paul - while talking about those who are ALIVE - would use the word TOGETHER WITH THEM in the catching up of BOTH the righteous dead and the living elect. Or why he would say both the righteous dead and living elect MEET the Lord in the air.

When there are that many unanswered questions, I usually go with the interpretation that answers them!

I'm post trib.

 

[Hekuran]

I'm actually not sure what all takes place AFTER the resurrection. Lots of people - not just JW'S believe they return to reign with Christ on earth, which could well be the case. That does not answer the question about those being alive and remain NOT preceding the righteous dead in the resurrection - or why he would TWICE mention those that are ALIVE [and] remain...(remain meaning those who remain after the dead are resurrected FIRST)

"we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep"

It doesn't explain why Paul would say, "the dead in Christ shall rise first."

"and the dead in Christ shall rise first"

It doesn't explain why - after Paul said the dead shall rise first he would use the word - THEN...

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It doesn't explain why Paul - while talking about those who are ALIVE - would use the word TOGETHER WITH THEM in the catching up of BOTH the righteous dead and the living elect. Or why he would say both the righteous dead and living elect MEET the Lord in the air.

When there are that many unanswered questions, I usually go with the interpretation that answers them!

I'm post trib.

1 thessalonians 4:13-18

Paul's addressing a pastoral problem. The church was expecting jesus to return very soon. So when brothers and sisters aged and died, it caused consternation - did it mean that they were not in gods blessing? Unsaved?

Paul's answer is that there's no cause for alarm. When Jesus returns, they will rise from their graves, and together we will greet him.

That's why he makes an emphasis on the order - to assure the church that those who have died haven't been overlooked by God.

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- you're presenting what I'd suggest is a weird scenario or one where there's really no good , satisfactory answer.

Okay -- a couple of years ago or so, my husband and I drove up to Colorado -- Pikes peak. it was during the winter -- at some places there was no guard rail and it was a little weird driving back down. So I Can relate - in a way - to driving in an area of high way with no protecting guardrail. IF Jesus Christ would have chosen that moment to rapture believers up to be with Him -- the car would have sudden become empty and would have ended up stopping at some place. Maybe over the edge.

You're wanting a perfect situation where no one is going to be accidentally killed when Jesus Christ returns for His People -- the Church. And, as I've previously commented -- Every one has access to the Gospel unto salvation. We are warned in Scripture to be ready. Just as God gave people in the days of Noah and the world-wide flood plenty of warning of coming disaster. Noah and his sons and daughter-in-laws were the only one's who listened to God. The ark wasn't built overnight and people Were curious -- and maybe thought they were a little nutty.

 

[Sue D.]

during the 1,000 rule of Christ, are all the saints going to rule with him, or just the one that came out of the tribulation and did not take the mark or were beheaded in the tribulation ????

here is the scripture that speaks of this

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Actually -- I've wondered about that, too. By the time the 1,000 yr reign of Jesus Christ is taking place -- we'll have experienced the rapture of the church and the 7 yrs. tribulation which will have included the mark of the beast (666) as well as the rise of the Antichrist.

Who'se to say that 'we' won't be amongst the martyrs. And we don't really Know when the Church will be taken up by Jesus Christ. There have been adults dying as martyrs in other countries very recently. And there was a high school student who was shot because she took a stand for Christ -- maybe during Columbine? She was a martyr.

As You are going about your business -- your daily work -- someone Could approach You and start a conversation and in taking a stand for Bible -- you might be threatened -- stabbed to death -- shot -- whatever. You would be a martyr.

Now - upon rereading that verse -- it specifies those who had been beheaded -- not shot or stabbed to death. But a person never knows under what circumstances they will die.

So -- I really Don't know if All the saints will be reigning with Jesus Christ -- where Will the rest of us saints Be -- to be honest - I'm not concerned about it. I'm a born-again believer who's at home with an ankle healing from a break.

 

[saginon]

@saginon -- you're presenting what I'd suggest is a weird scenario or one where there's really no good , satisfactory answer.

Okay -- a couple of years ago or so, my husband and I drove up to Colorado -- Pikes peak. it was during the winter -- at some places there was no guard rail and it was a little weird driving back down. So I Can relate - in a way - to driving in an area of high way with no protecting guardrail. IF Jesus Christ would have chosen that moment to rapture believers up to be with Him -- the car would have sudden become empty and would have ended up stopping at some place. Maybe over the edge.

You're wanting a perfect situation where no one is going to be accidentally killed when Jesus Christ returns for His People -- the Church. And, as I've previously commented -- Every one has access to the Gospel unto salvation. We are warned in Scripture to be ready. Just as God gave people in the days of Noah and the world-wide flood plenty of warning of coming disaster. Noah and his sons and daughter-in-laws were the only one's who listened to God. The ark wasn't built overnight and people Were curious -- and maybe thought they were a little nutty.

God will not kill innocent people in the aftermath of the rapture. There's no scripture indicating that's the case. I know a woman who left Christianity because of that and because of pre-trib. She didn't want to be a Christian because she had 4 teenage children and didn't want the car to crash and burn should the rapture happen while she was driving with her kids in the car. She didn't want to be raptured because she wanted to be here with them should the rapture happen.

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- The people who get left behind will be those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. So -- the innocence you're talking about isn't that they are or are not guilty of committing a crime.

Call it 'cause and effect' -- if a born-again husband is driving a car and his unsaved wife is with him -- in a moment he won't be there -- so -- maybe she can lean over and grab the stearing wheel and stop the car safely. And maybe the 'effect' Will be an accident. And maybe she Will die. God's fault NO. Why would it be. God did not cause her to be unsaved? Since her husband Was a believer, she probably had the same opportunities when they were married.

There was a tornado -- one of many this past year. A husband was protecting his wife during the worse of it. Covered her body with his --- he died saving her life. She wished she'd died along with him. Do we blame God for allowing that tornado? No.

There was a young couple -- just married -- went to Bible college -- they were one of many married students. Her husband complained of a head ache and didn't go to the first class. Friends went to check on him. Found him dead. They immediately contacted their pastor back home and they flew out to pick her up. Apparently God had other different plans for her. Are God's ways especially Our ways -- obviously Not. Was she not supposed to have married that particular man? Only God knows the answer. Surely they married in good faith that That was what God wanted them to do. God simply had different plans for her 'now'.

So -- Why do 'bad' things happen to 'good' people. is it Really Bad when a believer dies? No. Because they are in heaven with their Savior. Car wrecks -- cancer -- broken relationships -- lots of bad stuff happens. How do We react when they Do. Do people see Christ in us? Do we see cancer as an unplanned mission field.

There has been another idea come up -- that there will be so few Christians around that it won't make much difference. Someone will come up with an explanation that every one will believe.

And with all the talk about space travel and some guys are actually booking flights to Mars. Supposedly Mars is the next 'earth' to be populated. Maybe the explanation will be that Christians were simply 'beamed up' and no one will really question it. People will simply be glad that 'all those pesky Christians won't be here to bother us any more".

For a person to leave Christianity for That reason !! ?? . Since she has 4 teenagers -- is she presenting them with the Gospel? What has she been teaching them? I've also raised 4 kids -- all grown up adults now. My husband and I were in church -- a good Bible- teaching church,. the younger of my two sons goes through times of mild rebelliousness. Right now he's in an attitudinal stage -- not in church at all. A lot has happened in His life -- negative stuff. So he's in a mildly rebellious stage Again. There's no alcohol, drugs or anything like that. The other three are living their lives.

We need to talk with our kids -- about serious things in life -- sometimes they aren't willing To listen. Parents can't live their teens lives for them. Try to have them around Christian teens.

 

[saginon]

The people who get left behind will be those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. So -- the innocence you're talking about isn't that they are or are not guilty of committing a crime.

People who have not accepted Christ and will receive a righteous judgment in the future. Unbelievers are not guilty of anything at that time. Killing people isn't part of the Lord's plan in the rapture, that's what it's designed to prevent! It would be hypocritical for Him to do so since the rapture is to PREVENT killing people!

Call it 'cause and effect' -- if a born-again husband is driving a car and his unsaved wife is with him -- in a moment he won't be there -- so -- maybe she can lean over and grab the stearing wheel and stop the car safely.

Yep, that works.

And maybe the 'effect' Will be an accident. And maybe she Will die. God's fault NO. Why would it be. God did not cause her to be unsaved? Since her husband Was a believer, she probably had the same opportunities when they were married.

Of course God would be at fault - He's the one who removed the driver!
We can't blame God for accidents because we are still cursed by the fall - and they are not required while God performs an act of kindness like the rapture.

I can tell you that IF God kills people in an act of taking believers to heaven I don't want anything to do with him - and I wouldn't blame anybody for deserting a God who indiscriminately kills people over a rapture.

You are really taking this way too far. It just shows me how CHRISTIAN prophecy experts have manipulated and misguided people into believing God does things that are evil.

I know you from other forums and know you will NOT change your mind.

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- do you really understand what the rapture IS. What exactly am I 'taking too far'?

I Have been on a few other Forums.

There Are some things that Are too important To change my mind on.

 

[B-A-C]

I can tell you that IF God kills people in an act of taking believers to heaven I don't want anything to do with him - and I wouldn't blame anybody for deserting a God who indiscriminately kills people over a rapture.

What you think is evil, and what God thinks is evil are two different things.

If you don't like this part, you're really going to be upset when the judgment comes.

 

[saginon]

@saginon -- do you really understand what the rapture IS. What exactly am I 'taking too far'?

I Have been on a few other Forums.

There Are some things that Are too important To change my mind on.

I believe in the rapture - post-trib. Are you saying it's important to you that God does kill people when He raptures people?
Let's let it go and agree to disagree.

 

[saginon]

What you think is evil, and what God thinks is evil are two different things.

If you don't like this part, you're really going to be upset when the judgment comes.

What I believe is evil is the very same thing God says is evil.
So you would be thrilled if it's your family who crashes in flight # 666 on rapture day? You would be in glory praising God for murdering your family? If millions of people die as the result from a God appointed rapture, people would consider Him a evil god - and so would I!

It's not that I don't like that part - I hate that part! I know it's not true - I know it's NOT a judgment - I know it's unscriptural - I know God is not a ruthless, careless, reckless, and sloppy God who kills people unintentionally.

It's NOT a judgment! People who reject Christ have their judgment coming.

And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

When Jesus was speaking to the MULTITUDES, he said,...

"But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows."

 

[Brother-Paul]

I don't think that the Bible teaches that there will be a rapture. I believe Jesus is coming again in glory and that the dead will rise to glorified bodies.

The rapture seems to me to be an unnecessary appendage to all this, and not supported by scripture.

Is the Rapture in scripture? Yes or No? Yes and No?

The only verse I know of that does support a rapture is this one. How would you explain what is underlined, bolded, and colored.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Below is an explanation I thought worth sharing together...

It is commonly asserted that the word rapture doesn’t appear in the Bible, and this absence is held forth as evidence that the teaching of the rapture is a falsehood. But this claim is untrue. The word rapture does appear in the Bible. It appears in the exact same way that words like angel and apostle appear in the Bible. Τhe word rapture is simply the anglicized form of the Greek word ̔αρπαζω (harpazō) that appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in the original text.

To begin with, the English word rapture is derived from the Latin participle raptus from the verb rapio. And Latin rapio and Greek ̔αρπαζω (harpazō) are cognates — they are the same word. Don’t be fooled by the superficial differences between Latin rapio and Greek harpazō. The -αζω (-azō) on the end of ̔αρπαζω (harpazō) is not part of the shared stem but a common Koine Greek verb ending. And the rough breather, the “h”, at the beginning, is not part of the shared stem either. The shared stem is simply “rap” — rap in Latin and ρ-π (r-p) in Greek.

The fact is, harpazō and rapio belong to a class of Greek and Latin cognates where Greek adds an “h” to the shared stem. Another example from this class is Greek ̔ιστημι (histēmi) and Latin sto. Here again, neither the “h” at the beginning nor the -μι (-mi) verb ending are part of the shared stem. The stem is stē in Greek and sto in Latin. And it is sta in English, from whence we get words like stand and standard.

So we see that English rapture, Latin rapio, and Greek harpazō are cognates — they are the same word in different languages. But not only are they the same word, they have the same meaning. Anyone who has done a little reading from extra-biblical Greek and Latin, or has at least enough familiarity with those languages to use the classical Greek and Latin lexicons, is well aware of the fact that Greek ̔αρπαζω (harpazō) and Latin rapio regularly bore the same sense of “remove from harm’s way” that pretribulationists claim for the English word rapture. It was regularly used by the mythologists of the gods snatching their favorites out of harm’s way. And it was regularly used in similar senses by the historical authors. I recently noted that Josephus used it of parents snatching their children up and running for cover when Titus sacked Jerusalem in 70 AD.

So the next time someone tries to educate you with the fictional-factoid that the word rapture doesn’t appear in the Bible, just smile and point out that word rapture does appear in the Bible in the exact same way that words like angel, apostle, Messiah, Christ, Jesus, baptism, and apocalypse appear in the Bible.

The English word rapture is the Greek word ̔αρπαζω (harpazō) in its anglicized form. And it would be just as legitimate to translate harpazō in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 by rapture as it is to translate αγγελος (aggelos) by angel.

“Then we who are alive and remain shall be raptured together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”
“Eyes wide open, brain engaged, heart on fire.”

Lee W. Brainard