NEW HEAVEN/NEW EARTH - THE ETERNAL HOME OF EVERY SAVED BELIEVER IN CHRIST JESUS

[Hekuran]

We, the Saved souls, the born again, the new creations, have by now received our Glorious bodies, Praise the Lord, thanks be to God.

We have seen the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, we stand in awe in the Light of Christ and explore the wonders of the 1500 mile square City.

The thrones take our breath away, the crystal clear water in the river from the throne is so clear, we have never seen or tasted anything like it.

We look around for our loved ones, our friends who are saved. At this point we may not find them, after all 1500 mile square is some city, that is 2 million 250 thousand square miles. Remember on earth when people used to take the micky our of our faith and said Heaven would be a small place. I bet they wish they could see what we see.

Our mind cannot settle on one thing for one minute, the beauty, the splendour, takes our breath away. We take a walk by the river side, gaze at the Trees, the fruit, the leaves, remembering what scripture had told us they would be like, what they would do, a different fruit every month, and the reason for the leaves.

We see others taking fruit from the trees by the river and eating them, we try one also, the taste is like nothing we have tasted before.

Am I going to far? I don't think so, when Jesus returned the first time He walked by the lake side, He ate fish with the disciples, we will have a glorified body just like the one Jesus had. At this stage we will have experienced the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, I appreciate we have temporarily bye-passed the marriage supper to get to this stage we can come back to that later. For now we are taking in, if it is possible, the New Jerusalem, the Holy City, its immense size, its beauty.

It is nothing like the jokes on earth we heard about, heaven being angels strumming harps on white clouds.

We have, as children of God, received the inheritance He promised us all, it will take forever to discover what God has prepared for us.

1 Corinthians 2:6-10
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”— the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

(To be continued)

Yes and Yes. I'm not at all sure that we should be taking the descriptions of the New Jerusalem literally. Maybe we don't yet have words to describe how things will be?

I am sure that the reality will be not be less wonderful than this.

Here's Isaiah's vision of the same time (Isaiah 65). Can't resist posting it.

“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yes and Yes. I'm not at all sure that we should be taking the descriptions of the New Jerusalem literally. Maybe we don't yet have words to describe how things will be?

I am sure that the reality will be not be less wonderful than this.

Here's Isaiah's vision of the same time (Isaiah 65). Can't resist posting it.

“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.

My heart jumped for joy when I saw the scripture posted brother.

But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.

Every word we sing His Praises my friend.

And guess what? We haven't stepped out of the New Jerusalem onto the New Earth yet.

 

[Sue D.]

What I believe is evil is the very same thing God says is evil.
So you would be thrilled if it's your family who crashes in flight # 666 on rapture day? You would be in glory praising God for murdering your family? If millions of people die as the result from a God appointed rapture, people would consider Him a evil god - and so would I!

It's not that I don't like that part - I hate that part! I know it's not true - I know it's NOT a judgment - I know it's unscriptural - I know God is not a ruthless, careless, reckless, and sloppy God who kills people unintentionally.

It's NOT a judgment! People who reject Christ have their judgment coming.

And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

When Jesus was speaking to the MULTITUDES, he said,...

"But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows."

I know my comment here is Way out of order, but I still want to respond to saginon's comment.

God would Not be murdering my family or anyone else when the rapture of the saints takes place. He is NOT an evil God. Remember the verse -- John 3:16 "For God So Loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son , that Who So Ever believes on Him -- won't perish but have everlasting life."

God -- at some point in the future - Will take His children -- born-again believers/ Out of this chaotic world to be with Him. He's a loving God who provided all of us with a Loving Savior.

'We' reject Him -- HE doesn't 'murder' Us.

And, yes, He Does have all our individual hairs numbered. And we Are more valuable than many sparrows. But 'we' Still chose to ignore Him or blame Him for our rejecting Him.

speak for yourself Only. 'YOU' choose to call Him an 'evil' God. I can hardly even type that. And, yes, others' Do call Him 'that' -- but for no good reason. There would Never be a good reason.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings all

We have spent time in the New Jerusalem, what an amazing place it will be, with God, with Jesus, in His Light, in His Peace, Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, etc, etc will all come together in the Holy City.

The Light of Christ will be so bright, yet our eyes will allow us to look Him in the face, image looking Jesus in the face, our new glorious bodies will be perfect in every way, that is why we will be able to look into the amazing light of Christ.

We will get accustomed to the place very quickly I am sure, because it is what God has created for us, for us to be with Him forever.

It will not be long before we are starting to look around, it is our new home, it will feel more like home than anywhere we have ever lived before. the crystal clear waters of the river with the light flickering in the flow, the amazing trees either side of the river. All this will take our breath away but. we will understandably want to find those we loved, but this is some city, 1500 mile square, 2 million 250 thousand square miles, how will we find them? We won't have telephones, mobiles or GPS to help us, a blessing I think, we won't have them, we will not need them. God knows our hearts, He knows our loved ones hearts, we will meet again, and will have eternity to enjoy the place and to find them.

I remember once being told once following...

When I get to heaven, I will no doubt see people I never thought I would see, I will not see some I thought would be there, that is providing I have done everything the Lord requested of me when I was on earth, if I haven't I will not be there either.

Our Salvation is down to what we do, think, say and pray, according to God's Holy Word, but our destiny is in our own hands...

Don't put off until tomorrow what you can do and make right today, we may not be here tomorrow.

If we are not Saved whilst here on earth, none of what we have been discussing and sharing together will be ours.

If we are born again saved believers, following Christ and The Word, taking up our cross daily and following Him, all this and more will be ours and we will be with our Lord forever..

Please do read again Isaiah 65:17-25 our dear brother @Hekuran shared above.

( To be continued )

 

[Beresheet]

The question was asked, where does the millennium fit in.

The millennium will start shortly after the true Christs returns to earth. By then everyone will have chosen which Christ they would follow. Hope everyone can grasp just how important this decision or choice that each and everyone will have to make at this great event of Christ’s return.

Understand this, we have two super natural entities coming to this earth in the near future, both will claim to be the Christ. One of them will show forth signs and wonders to convince the people, he is Christ.

Each and everyone will have the choice to worship the first Christ or the second Christ that shows up on earth. This is the real test, this is the make or break choice everyone will have to make. This one choice determines whether you over come out of the flesh or you fail to overcome.

I don’t care how good a person one may be, or if they have been a teacher/preacher for the last forty years, if he or she bows their knee and worships anti christ, even by mistake, thinking he is the true Christ, they fail to overcome out of the flesh. The Bible says that those who worship anti christ by choice or mistake will want the mountains to fall on them because of the shame and degradation they feel. They don’t want to face Christ cause they worshiped anti christ by choice or by mistake.

The millennium is a second chance or opportunity for those who for any reason did not get the chance to hear the true word of God while here on earth.

Those who fail to overcome out of the flesh are enrolled in that 1000 year millennium boot camp to be taught the true word of God by qualified teachers. There will not be this religion or that religion but only the true word of God taught. One will not have the excuse that they didn’t get the opportunity or chance to hear the true word of God. They will be made accountable during the millennium.

During this millennium period Satan is taken out of the way so he is not a temptation to anyone. Satan will be loose for a short season at the end of the millennium to see just how many he can sway back to follow and worship him. After Satan short temptation period is over, then THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT DAY.

Those that were swayed back to Satan during the millennium, all of Satan’s fallen angels, and all his cronies along with Satan himself will be thrown in the lake of fire to be simply blotted out, not even their remembrance will survive. Then God with all His children that overcame will live forever and ever into the eternity.

 

[Sue D.]

That which you are referring to is taking place during the 7 yr tribulation period. Half-way through That is when the Anti Christ appears.

 

[Beresheet]

Sue I know anti christs tribulation started out as a seven year period broken down into two three and half year periods but Christ shortened those days for the Elect sake. Matt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the Elects sake those days shall be shortened. Christ shortened the day for His elects sake, whom He hath chosen. The Elect were chosen by God from the foundation of the world after Satan’s attempted overthrow. This one third that stayed with and sided with God during Satan’s overthrow overcame at that time and God rewarded them and found them justified. Mark 13:20. And except that the LORD had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the Elects sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

Satan’s tribulation has been shortened to a five month period broken down into two, two and a half months periods. This verse in Rev 9:4 is so important for all Christians to know and understand. All the Christians that have acquired the knowledge and understanding of that great SEAL OF GOD will have protection from anti christ and his cronies by God almighty. Now this is a commandment from God. Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but ONLY THESE MEN WHICH HAVE NOT THE SEAL OF GOD IN THEIR FOREHEADS. If a Christian has gained the knowledge and understanding of THE SEAL OF GOD, anti christ and his cronies are commanded not to even touch those which have this great SEAL OF GOD IN THEIR FOREHEADS.

For all those who did not acquire the knowledge and wisdom of THE SEAL OF GOD this is what they receive. Rev 9:10. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and their were stings in their tails; and their power was to hurt men five months. Anti christ and his cronies just have five months to do their dirty deeds.. And their dirty deeds are to deceive everyone in to believing anti christ is the true Christ. If one bows and worships anti christ just one time, it’s 1000 years of millennium boot camp for that individual.

Sue you can see that Christ has shortened the days of anti christs rule over the earth to a five month period, except there would be no flesh saved. Thank God that Christ has shortened the days.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The question was asked, where does the millennium fit in.

It was my friend but it was a long way back in the discussions

The millennium will start shortly after the true Christs returns to earth. By then everyone will have chosen which Christ they would follow. Hope everyone can grasp just how important this decision or choice that each and everyone will have to make at this great event of Christ’s return.


Understand this, we have two super natural entities coming to this earth in the near future, both will claim to be the Christ. One of them will show forth signs and wonders to convince the people, he is Christ.

Each and everyone will have the choice to worship the first Christ or the second Christ that shows up on earth. This is the real test, this is the make or break choice everyone will have to make. This one choice determines whether you over come out of the flesh or you fail to overcome.

I agree that the Millennium will start after Christ's return in Glory, when he makes all things new.

But I do not agree that everyone will have had the choice to choose which Christ they follow, that being Christ Jesus or the Anti-christ.

The item that can affect this comment is when the Rapture occurs. If there is a Pre-Rapture, or a Mid-Rapture, the elect, saved believers will not see the Great Tribulation Period, the last three and a half years. Only if there is a Post-Rapture, at the end of the Tribulation and Great Tribulation Periods will saved souls see the Anti-christ.

I don’t care how good a person one may be, or if they have been a teacher/preacher for the last forty years, if he or she bows their knee and worships anti christ, even by mistake, thinking he is the true Christ, they fail to overcome out of the flesh. The Bible says that those who worship anti christ by choice or mistake will want the mountains to fall on them because of the shame and degradation they feel. They don’t want to face Christ cause they worshiped anti christ by choice or by mistake.

If the Rapture is Pre or Mid-Trib. the Saved will be lifted out and meet the Lord in the air. The none believers will be left behind and will experience the Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24:21-35 (NKJV)
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

This points to The Great Tribulation period, a time never seen before since the creation of the world, and not to be seen ever again.

It is in this terrible period that it will be so bad, if not shortened, 'no flash would be saved.

Then we have the conclusion, but for the elect's sake, the saved believers sake, those days are shortened.

This therefore in effect appears to say that saved believers will not have to go through the Tribulation period, pointing to a Pre or Mid period Rapture.

 

[Brother-Paul]

That which you are referring to is taking place during the 7 yr tribulation period. Half-way through That is when the Anti Christ appears.

Greeting Sue D.

I totally agree, it is the last three and a half years, The Great Tribulation.

As you say it is when the Anti-christ appears and the abomination that causes desolation takes place.

 

[saginon]

Greeting Sue D.

I totally agree, it is the last three and a half years, The Great Tribulation.

As you say it is when the Anti-christ appears and the abomination that causes desolation takes place.

Where do we find that the tribulation is 7 years, and where do you find that the first 3 1/2 years is "the tribulation" and the later 3 1/2 years is "the Great Tribulation?" If you believe that then surely you have scripture references. I'm actually not convinced (though it may) the tribulation is 7 years long. (at least 3 1/2 for sure.)

In the following passage we are told we will suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[newname]

Where do we find that the tribulation is 7 years, and where do you find that the first 3 1/2 years is "the tribulation" and the later 3 1/2 years is "the Great Tribulation?" If you believe that then surely you have scripture references. I'm actually not convinced (though it may) the tribulation is 7 years long. (at least 3 1/2 for sure.)

In the following passage we are told we will suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Daniel 9:27

Then he shall confirm a [g]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [h]desolate.”

Why are we told to watch, cause we don't know when He comes, if we go through the trib? Then you can just count the days from since ac sits in the temple and you know when Jesus comes back.

 

[saginon]

Daniel 9:27

Then he shall confirm a [g]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [h]desolate.”

Why are we told to watch, cause we don't know when He comes, if we go through the trib? Then you can just count the days from since ac sits in the temple and you know when Jesus comes back.

I have never accepted Daniel's 70th week, that in my view is another dispensational blunder that was fulfilled at the cross.

Why would the prophecy of “seventy weeks indicate anything but 70 sequential weeks? Why would this biblical time period start, then stop at what the "prophecy experts" call a 'gap,' and then start up again some 2000 years later? If that's the case then the week following the 69th week really isn't the 70th week since there's a 2000 year gap! The passage doesn't mention anything about tribulation, an anti-Christ, the rebuilding of a temple, or animal sacrifices -(maybe). The passage in verse 25 and 26 speak about the Messiah. So grammatically speaking it makes no sense that verse 27 would suddenly and completely change into speaking about the anti-Christ. The Messiah being “cut off" is referring to Christ’s death. Most people don't know that the words "daily sacrifice" are mentioned 6 times in Daniel. In Daniel 9:27 the word SACRIFICE IS in the original text.

However, in Daniel 8:11, 12, 13, 11:31, and 12:11, the word SACRIFICE IS NOT IN THE ORIGINAL TEXT! All it says is, "the daily!" The word sacrifice was ADDED! Being that the word sacrifice is only found in Daniel 9:27 - and the contexts' subject matter is "Messiah the Prince," that is an indication that the daily sacrifice - and the covenant - in Daniel 9:27 IS the cross! (depending on how one interprets this, it could mean the cessation of Temple sacrifices when it was destroyed in AD70) The other passages I quote in Daniel imply something else about the man of sin. With the word 'sacrifice' removed, they should be worded like this...

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 8:12 And an host was given against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 9:27 is either referring to the cross or the daily sacrifice in the temple ceasing after the Temples destruction in 70 AD, and that's why the word sacrifice IS in the original text. I think the cross because of "the covenant." In every other verse I mentioned above where the word sacrifice is NOT in the original text, it refers to the daily

 

[newname]

I have never accepted Daniel's 70th week, that in my view is another dispensational blunder that was fulfilled at the cross.

Why would the prophecy of “seventy weeks indicate anything but 70 sequential weeks? Why would this biblical time period start, then stop at what the "prophecy experts" call a 'gap,' and then start up again some 2000 years later? If that's the case then the week following the 69th week really isn't the 70th week since there's a 2000 year gap! The passage doesn't mention anything about tribulation, an anti-Christ, the rebuilding of a temple, or animal sacrifices -(maybe). The passage in verse 25 and 26 speak about the Messiah. So grammatically speaking it makes no sense that verse 27 would suddenly and completely change into speaking about the anti-Christ. The Messiah being “cut off" is referring to Christ’s death. Most people don't know that the words "daily sacrifice" are mentioned 6 times in Daniel. In Daniel 9:27 the word SACRIFICE IS in the original text.

However, in Daniel 8:11, 12, 13, 11:31, and 12:11, the word SACRIFICE IS NOT IN THE ORIGINAL TEXT! All it says is, "the daily!" The word sacrifice was ADDED! Being that the word sacrifice is only found in Daniel 9:27 - and the contexts' subject matter is "Messiah the Prince," that is an indication that the daily sacrifice - and the covenant - in Daniel 9:27 IS the cross! (depending on how one interprets this, it could mean the cessation of Temple sacrifices when it was destroyed in AD70) The other passages I quote in Daniel imply something else about the man of sin. With the word 'sacrifice' removed, they should be worded like this...

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 8:12 And an host was given against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 9:27 is either referring to the cross or the daily sacrifice in the temple ceasing after the Temples destruction in 70 AD, and that's why the word sacrifice IS in the original text. I think the cross because of "the covenant." In every other verse I mentioned above where the word sacrifice is NOT in the original text, it refers to the daily

To be honest, before I heard the pretrib explanation I thought it was about Jesus Who made the sacrifice stop, cause it wasn't necessary anymore.
Looked it up. Verse 26 speaks about the prince who destroys the city and Jesus puts the abomination of desolation in the end time in Matthew 24.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[saginon]

To be honest, before I heard the pretrib explanation I thought it was about Jesus Who made the sacrifice stop, cause it wasn't necessary anymore.
Looked it up. Verse 26 speaks about the prince who destroys the city and Jesus puts the abomination of desolation in the end time in Matthew 24.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

“The people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" has commonly been understood as the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70. This interpretation is very unlikely since the context of verse 25 and 26 speaks about the anointed one or Messiah. I believe this is a blunder of the the 1611 translators of the KJV.

When I looked at this in the online interlinear bible and in Gesenius Lexicon I understood the verse as follows.
...and the city, sanctuary, and people of the coming Prince (Messiah) shall be destroyed and their end shall come suddenly by an overflowing army until the end of the war when desolation's are decreed by the Messiah.

You can also look at how Shalach understands it here.

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- sorry but my brain glazed over after a short time of reading the information in "here". And he stated it all as " a theological challenge". The KJV does have some translation problems -- the NKJ / NAS are better with some of the wording. During some of the Bible studies at a church I go to. The pastor Had been KJV and a professor of his was big on NAS and pastor decided to change To NAS. He said that in his study time, he sees passages where 'better' wording could be used to get a more correct meaning of the passage. And, no, he's Not trying to change doctrinal beliefs.

In the process of translating from one language to another -- there's No 'perfect' translation simply because every language has it's own alphabet and it's usually impossible to translate word for word.

with my limited knowledge of the temple -- it's going to be rebuilt a 3rd time.

and you've also stated that you don't accept Daniel's 70th week and that it doesn't seem right / reasonable / whatever word you used. That there is a 2,000 year gap before the last 7 takes place. Well -- that Is your choice. Lots of us believe that the last 7 is still in the future.


And there's a difference between the times of tribulation that All believers experience during their lives And the 7 yr period of time Of tribulation which includes the last 3 1/2 yrs of Great Tribulation. And those final 7 yrs are meant for the Jewish population. God isn't finished with the Jews. Presently 'we' are in the time of the Gentiles. At First -- salvation was meant only for God's chosen people. But the rejection of Jesus as promised Messiah -- the gospel was extended to the rest of the world / Gentiles. So there Will be a time in the future For the non-believing Jews still. Revelation Does say that multitudes To come to Christ. From all over the world.

 

[newname]

I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

After 70 weeks with no gap Jerusalem was destroyed. Jesus dealt with sin on the cross, but Jerusalem wasn't restored at all and the sin was not gone.

“The people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" has commonly been understood as the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70. This interpretation is very unlikely since the context of verse 25 and 26 speaks about the anointed one or Messiah. I believe this is a blunder of the the 1611 translators of the KJV.

When I looked at this in the online interlinear bible and in Gesenius Lexicon I understood the verse as follows.
...and the city, sanctuary, and people of the coming Prince (Messiah) shall be destroyed and their end shall come suddenly by an overflowing army until the end of the war when desolation's are decreed by the Messiah.

You can also look at how Shalach understands it here.

Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel and N.T. always quotes the Septuagint.
How early Judaism read it:

How early Judaism read Daniel 9:24-27

Similar to 1 Macc 1:54, Josephus understood Daniel's abomination of desolation with reference to the desecrating action of Antiochus IV at the Jerusalem temple.35 Nevertheless, Josephus also perceived application for his day. He says, "In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them."36

 

[saginon]

@saginon -- sorry but my brain glazed over after a short time of reading the information in "here". And he stated it all as " a theological challenge". The KJV does have some translation problems -- the NKJ / NAS are better with some of the wording. During some of the Bible studies at a church I go to. The pastor Had been KJV and a professor of his was big on NAS and pastor decided to change To NAS. He said that in his study time, he sees passages where 'better' wording could be used to get a more correct meaning of the passage. And, no, he's Not trying to change doctrinal beliefs.

In the process of translating from one language to another -- there's No 'perfect' translation simply because every language has it's own alphabet and it's usually impossible to translate word for word.

with my limited knowledge of the temple -- it's going to be rebuilt a 3rd time.

and you've also stated that you don't accept Daniel's 70th week and that it doesn't seem right / reasonable / whatever word you used. That there is a 2,000 year gap before the last 7 takes place. Well -- that Is your choice. Lots of us believe that the last 7 is still in the future.


And there's a difference between the times of tribulation that All believers experience during their lives And the 7 yr period of time Of tribulation which includes the last 3 1/2 yrs of Great Tribulation. And those final 7 yrs are meant for the Jewish population. God isn't finished with the Jews. Presently 'we' are in the time of the Gentiles. At First -- salvation was meant only for God's chosen people. But the rejection of Jesus as promised Messiah -- the gospel was extended to the rest of the world / Gentiles. So there Will be a time in the future For the non-believing Jews still. Revelation Does say that multitudes To come to Christ. From all over the world.

Daniel's 70th week is how people have come up with a 7 year tribulation. This is how the dispensasional story goes...

This 7 year period, they say, begins with the rapture of the church. And immediately thereafter some Antichrist appears on the world scene who then makes a covenant with the Jews. At the end of 3 ½ years the Antichrist breaks this covenant and turns on the Jews with an awful slaughter, and this is the Great Tribulation. The tribulation period is climaxed by the return of Christ with His saints to set up His kingdom.

The fact of the matter is that not one verse of prophecy supports this so called prophecy I just quoted above. Look at this logically...
In Daniel 9:25, Gabriel said to Daniel, “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threesocre and two weeks”,etc.

Now when I went to school, seven and sixty-two made sixty-nine. And in language as clear as words can make it, Gabriel declares that sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem, would bring them UNTO Messiah. While there is some slight disagreement as to the exact date involved when the commandment was given to restore and build Jerusalem, somewhere close to 457 B.C. is the correct date, and 483 years from 457 B.C. brings you to the year 28 A.D., the year in which Jesus was baptized by John, and in which He began His public ministry. Regardless what date we use we land between AD28 - AD 33.

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
In Matthew 27: 50-51 the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom when Jesus died.

In Leviticus 4:1-20 the priest would kill the animal for sacrificial purposes and take the blood and sprinkle it on the veil. The veil in the temple separated the holy and the Most Holy place and this sprinkling of blood would absolve their sins. The torn veil at the death of Jesus means that He caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease because he is the final sacrifice. This is confirmed in Matthew 27: 50-51 and Hebrews 10:12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

"and for the overspreading of abominations...

Was it not an abomination that the Jewish leaders crucified Christ? Was it not an abomination that they continued with the law and their sacrificial ceremonies after the crucifixion and up to the time the temple was destroyed? That's why verse 27 say's, ...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation." (end of tribulation)

Verse 27 reaffirms that a Temple will not be rebuilt. Because of Israel's unbelief the temple was made desolate and remained destroyed even until today and will remain desolate until the time of the end AKA the consummation, the Lord's ONE AND ONLY return.

I have much more to say but have derailed this thread enough as it is.

 

[Beresheet]

Saginon, it wasn’t the Jews that crucified Christ. It may have been some of the leadership in the church that was behind the push to have Christ crucified. But the church by this time had been infiltrated with the Kenites, the children of Satan and they would claim to be Jews, trying to make it look like they were on Christ side, but all the time trying to destroy Christ. Christ was crucified by the synagogue of Satan. Rev 3:9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of safan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. This is christ speaking here.

 

[saginon]

Saginon, it wasn’t the Jews that crucified Christ. It may have been some of the leadership in the church that was behind the push to have Christ crucified. But the church by this time had been infiltrated with the Kenites, the children of Satan and they would claim to be Jews, trying to make it look like they were on Christ side, but all the time trying to destroy Christ. Christ was crucified by the synagogue of Satan. Rev 3:9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of safan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. This is christ speaking here.

It was God the Father that sent Christ to the cross, the Jews who wanted him crucified, and the Romans who did the dirty work. I don't understand how that applies to my response above??? There's a few different ideas on the SOS, and unbelieving Jews did have something to do with the crucifixion. But I think there' more to it than that.

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- for one thing it was the Roman soldiers who did the crucifying. And why would the crucifixion of Jesus Christ be an abomination? An abomination is a 'something' that God hates. Jesus Christ came into this world To die on that cross for our sins. At the very time of His death -- He was taking all of our sins upon Himself so that God had to turn away from His son.

The temple is in the process Of being rebuilt or it soon will be in that process.

And what more would You have there being to it. I probably shouldn't ask.

@newname -- you've brought in 1Mac 1 -- that's not in the recognized canon of Scripture -- it's part of the Apocraphal books.