NEW HEAVEN/NEW EARTH - THE ETERNAL HOME OF EVERY SAVED BELIEVER IN CHRIST JESUS

[Hekuran]

Is the Rapture in scripture? Yes or No? Yes and No?




Below is an explanation I thought worth sharing together...

It is commonly asserted that the word rapture doesn’t appear in the Bible, and this absence is held forth as evidence that the teaching of the rapture is a falsehood. But this claim is untrue. The word rapture does appear in the Bible. It appears in the exact same way that words like angel and apostle appear in the Bible. Τhe word rapture is simply the anglicized form of the Greek word ̔αρπαζω (harpazō) that appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in the original text.

To begin with, the English word rapture is derived from the Latin participle raptus from the verb rapio. And Latin rapio and Greek ̔αρπαζω (harpazō) are cognates — they are the same word. Don’t be fooled by the superficial differences between Latin rapio and Greek harpazō. The -αζω (-azō) on the end of ̔αρπαζω (harpazō) is not part of the shared stem but a common Koine Greek verb ending. And the rough breather, the “h”, at the beginning, is not part of the shared stem either. The shared stem is simply “rap” — rap in Latin and ρ-π (r-p) in Greek.

The fact is, harpazō and rapio belong to a class of Greek and Latin cognates where Greek adds an “h” to the shared stem. Another example from this class is Greek ̔ιστημι (histēmi) and Latin sto. Here again, neither the “h” at the beginning nor the -μι (-mi) verb ending are part of the shared stem. The stem is stē in Greek and sto in Latin. And it is sta in English, from whence we get words like stand and standard.

So we see that English rapture, Latin rapio, and Greek harpazō are cognates — they are the same word in different languages. But not only are they the same word, they have the same meaning. Anyone who has done a little reading from extra-biblical Greek and Latin, or has at least enough familiarity with those languages to use the classical Greek and Latin lexicons, is well aware of the fact that Greek ̔αρπαζω (harpazō) and Latin rapio regularly bore the same sense of “remove from harm’s way” that pretribulationists claim for the English word rapture. It was regularly used by the mythologists of the gods snatching their favorites out of harm’s way. And it was regularly used in similar senses by the historical authors. I recently noted that Josephus used it of parents snatching their children up and running for cover when Titus sacked Jerusalem in 70 AD.

So the next time someone tries to educate you with the fictional-factoid that the word rapture doesn’t appear in the Bible, just smile and point out that word rapture does appear in the Bible in the exact same way that words like angel, apostle, Messiah, Christ, Jesus, baptism, and apocalypse appear in the Bible.

The English word rapture is the Greek word ̔αρπαζω (harpazō) in its anglicized form. And it would be just as legitimate to translate harpazō in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 by rapture as it is to translate αγγελος (aggelos) by angel.

“Then we who are alive and remain shall be raptured together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”
“Eyes wide open, brain engaged, heart on fire.”

Lee W. Brainard

 

[Hekuran]

Yes the word appears; the question is, what did Paul mean by the word? The basic meaning is to snatch or to catch up. The whole doctrine of the faithful being snatched away to heaven at some point seems a pretty unlikely interpretation of the text.

Paul is addressing the question of what the church is to make of Christians who have died before Christ's return. How could the idea of the faithful being caught up to reside in heaven help them with this?

 

[Brother-Paul]

God will not kill innocent people in the aftermath of the rapture. There's no scripture indicating that's the case. I know a woman who left Christianity because of that and because of pre-trib. She didn't want to be a Christian because she had 4 teenage children and didn't want the car to crash and burn should the rapture happen while she was driving with her kids in the car. She didn't want to be raptured because she wanted to be here with them should the rapture happen.

Greeting @saginon

You put forward a good example my friend, but, there is a big but here I believe.

The lady didn't want her children to die so she protected them, wouldn't any good parent try do this, but her priorities were not right.

I would first ask, was the woman in the example saved, I think not. If she had been saved she would wanted her children to be saved also, she would have taught them all about Jesus and the cross and the way to Salvation. We do not know how old the children were from your example so have to assume they were old enough tom understand.

Matthew 16:24-28 (NKJV)
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Luke 17:33-37 (NKJV)
33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

Was the ladies priorities for herself and her children right with God? No.

The world will carry on up to the rapture, and as quoted in scripture there after. If we are right with God we have nothing to be concerned about, if we are not right with God we have chosen to accept whatever consequences come, especially those we have been warned of in the Bible.

Jesus will come and the Church will be raptured, all Saved believers will meet with Him in the air, there are a massive amount of scriptures warning mankind to BE READY, not just none believers but believers also.

It is up to every Saved believer to tell others, especially our loved ones, our children, our families, our friends, it is up to every believer to point them to Jesus and the Cross.

Taking your example @saginon, allow me to reverse it. The lady wasn't saved, but tried to save those she loved, what if the ones she loved were saved and she was not? She will be left behind;
she will grieve more than we can imagine for her errors, that will be nothing to having to face the Great White Throne Judgement.

The lady was trying to save the flesh with no regard to the spirit of God and His Word.

John 3:5-6 (NKJV)
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

God's ways are not our ways brother, he sees the bigger picture, we only see it in part.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yes the word appears; the question is, what did Paul mean by the word? The basic meaning is to snatch or to catch up. The whole doctrine of the faithful being snatched away to heaven at some point seems a pretty unlikely interpretation of the text.

Paul is addressing the question of what the church is to make of Christians who have died before Christ's return. How could the idea of the faithful being caught up to reside in heaven help them with this?

Greetings brother

I often think with this subject that we look at it stood on earth, instead of seeing it as God sees it, from above, He has the full picture.

Is it also possible we miss the point whilst trying to work out, does it say rapture in the Bible or does it not and of course what does it mean. You are spot on with your statement above, the meaning is... 'the faithful being snatched away to heaven' snatched up, caught up.

First we are caught up, when we meet the Lord in the air, but snatched up is also an excellent description, both meaning the same. We are snatched up, from the sinful world, to be with our Lord.

But there is another point I think, this is the one many tend to miss. It is not the fact that @Hekuran, @saginon, @Dave M, @Sue D., @other_saved_believers are snatched/caught up to be with the Lord. It is the fact that what is being snatched/caught up is 'The Church', His Bride', it is being removed from earth, to be with the Lord in the Current Heaven, (The New Jerusalem in the Current Heaven), ready for what Jesus still has to do, the Tribulation Period(s) and what He has prepared for us.

Jesus is removing the most precious item to Him, His loving bride, and this is why I believe the Rapture will be either before the Tribulation Periods, or before the Great Tribulation Period starts. But I do appreciate others have different views on its timing. We all agree scripture is clear, The Rapture will take place.

 

[Hekuran]

We all agree scripture is clear, The Rapture will take place.

No. I'm convinced that there is no Biblical basis for the belief that believers get snatched up to heaven.

 

[Brother-Paul]

No. I'm convinced that there is no Biblical basis for the belief that believers get snatched up to heaven.

May I ask your understanding of the following brother

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[B-A-C]

Rapture simply means "catch up, or gather up".

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

 

[Hekuran]

May I ask your understanding of the following brother

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I've cut and pasted this from my post #127

The event Paul describes here is Jesus's glorious return, and the resurrection of the dead. That's the absolute last moment I'd want to be flown off to heaven, and the moment I most look forward to on earth. What would be the point in going to heaven just as Christ is establishing his eternal rule on earth?

The best approach to these verses is to think of a conquering king returning home. In Greek and Roman society, a triumphant king would come back from battle laden with the spoils of war. The citizens would come out of the city to meet the army as it approached and the would parade in together.

I think Paul is using this idea to help his readers imagine a cosmic glorified welcoming party for king Jesus.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I've cut and pasted this from my post #127

The event Paul describes here is Jesus's glorious return, and the resurrection of the dead. That's the absolute last moment I'd want to be flown off to heaven, and the moment I most look forward to on earth. What would be the point in going to heaven just as Christ is establishing his eternal rule on earth?

The best approach to these verses is to think of a conquering king returning home. In Greek and Roman society, a triumphant king would come back from battle laden with the spoils of war. The citizens would come out of the city to meet the army as it approached and the would parade in together.

I think Paul is using this idea to help his readers imagine a cosmic glorified welcoming party for king Jesus.

Greetings brother

From what you are saying am I right in believing your are post trib.

I am a constant assessor, I always read scripture with an open mind, open to the Spirit, I need time to pray and read more my friend. You raise a good point but it is how the thoughts here relate to other scriptures.

I do at this point look at the following scripture brother B-A-C just included from Mark's Gospel...

Mark 13:27;
"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven

The last 6 words were not included by Matthew.

If this is Jesus' Glorious 'Return' why would Mark say, we are gathered together, to go to the farthest end of Heaven?

 

[saginon]

Greeting @saginon

You put forward a good example my friend, but, there is a big but here I believe.

The lady didn't want her children to die so she protected them, wouldn't any good parent try do this, but her priorities were not right.

I would first ask, was the woman in the example saved, I think not. If she had been saved she would wanted her children to be saved also, she would have taught them all about Jesus and the cross and the way to Salvation. We do not know how old the children were from your example so have to assume they were old enough tom understand.

You are not the one who determines that someone is not saved on the basis of a discussion on a forum! How do you know she DIDN'T present Christ to her Children! That kind of thinking gives me a very unfavorable opinion of the typical Christian. The church we attended pounded the pre-trib fallacy, and she didn't want to be raptured because she loved her children and didn't want them dying in the possibility of an accidental death due to a rapture, or her teenage children left alone during those troublesome times.

Was the ladies priorities for herself and her children right with God? No.

I find your judgmentalism very offensive. You have no idea what you're doing.

The world will carry on up to the rapture, and as quoted in scripture there after. If we are right with God we have nothing to be concerned about, if we are not right with God we have chosen to accept whatever consequences come, especially those we have been warned of in the Bible.

I have no problem with that. I do have serious problems with pre-trib.

Jesus will come and the Church will be raptured, all Saved believers will meet with Him in the air, there are a massive amount of scriptures warning mankind to BE READY, not just none believers but believers also.

That has nothing to do with the aftermath of a rapture killing millions of people - or this lady who you've passed judgment upon. She did the right thing, she got OUT of a church obsessed with pre-trib.

It is up to every Saved believer to tell others, especially our loved ones, our children, our families, our friends, it is up to every believer to point them to Jesus and the Cross.

And you are passing judgment on this girl presuming she didn't! My view is that people reject Christ because of some of the bad things believers - believe and do. Do you think teaching people that millions are going to crash and burn when God takes you to heaven is going to attract unbelievers to Christ? Do you think people who pass judgment like you just did gives unbelievers the impression that believers are wonderful people?

Taking your example @saginon, allow me to reverse it. The lady wasn't saved, but tried to save those she loved, what if the ones she loved were saved and she was not? She will be left behind;
she will grieve more than we can imagine for her errors, that will be nothing to having to face the Great White Throne Judgement.

That makes no sense! I think you and several others here need to look at what you believe and REPENT! God will not steal, kill, and destroy in the aftermath of the rapture! What you, Sue D, and B-A-C need to do is utilize a little logic about this pre-trib, pre-wrath, or mid-trib rapture stuff. It gets to the point of outright absurdity and ignorance.

The lady was trying to save the flesh with no regard to the spirit of God and His Word.

You have no idea what you're saying because you believe in a rapture BEFORE the end of tribulation. The lady did the right thing - leave a church that's teaching a bunch of pipe dreamed lies and fiction.

John 3:5-6 (NKJV)

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

God's ways are not our ways brother, he sees the bigger picture, we only see it in part.

This lady was saved, she is saved today, you are judging her. She did the right thing and got out of a heretical pre-trib obsessed church!

 

[Brother-Paul]

You are not the one who determines that someone is not saved on the basis of a discussion on a forum! How do you know she DIDN'T present Christ to her Children! That kind of thinking gives me a very unfavorable opinion of the typical Christian. The church we attended pounded the pre-trib fallacy, and she didn't want to be raptured because she loved her children and didn't want them dying in the possibility of an accidental death due to a rapture, or her teenage children left alone during those

Dear brother you gave an example, I reversed your example for consideration.

Now if we stand back a little and look again we can see two situations not one, I am not talking scriptural, I am using your example.

You have said that the lady loved her children, brilliant all parents do or should love their children. You have said...

She didn't want to be a Christian because she had 4 teenage children and didn't want the car to crash and burn should the rapture happen while she was driving with her kids in the car. She didn't want to be raptured because she wanted to be here with them should the rapture happen.

On a Post Trib situation I can understand what you say but, not everyone believes in the Post Trib. there are so many views and so many items to consider, many believe in the Pre Trib. so what if the Tribulation accurred sooner than she thought?

There is another consideration here, again looking at the situations with an open mind based on what we are told in The Word.

You appear to say Post Trib. as you said, you cannot see God letting the things happen that have been mentioned so far. I can understand your thoughts brother, but let me put this to you for further consideration.
1 You do not believe God will make none believers suffer death due to a saved soul being raptured
2 Do you therefore thing God finds it acceptable to let 'saved believers' suffer, not just the Tribulation, but Hell on earth in the Great Tribulation.

Both options include suffering and death, option 1 the lady doesn't want her children to suffer and die, so in effect you say it is right that God should let saved souls suffer the Tribulation periods.

I keep an open mind here, but I believe God will save his children from the Tribulation Period(s), particularly the Great Tribulation, the last three and a half years under the beast, the anti-christ and the devil. Would you let your children experience this? There is something more special here to, the saved are not just God's children, we are the Church, the Bride of Christ, is Jesus going to let His Precious Church be open to the evils of the world at that time, He is lifting us out, He is lifting his church out, The Bride of Christ, The New Jerusalem, the Holy City, that will come down on to the New Earth when all things are made new.

God lifted Noah and his family out before the flood, before the wicked none believers died in the flood. Jesus will, I believe, lift His Bride, His Church out before the wicked are dealt with.

The reason we are studying these things together is to look at God's Word and collect the jig saw pieces to have a better view of what he has told us, what he plans for us, what to expect and to be ready, even if we cannot be quite sure exactly when these things will occur. Watch, understand and be Ready.

 

[Brother-Paul]

That has nothing to do with the aftermath of a rapture killing millions of people - or this lady who you've passed judgment upon. She did the right thing, she got OUT of a church obsessed with pre-trib.

My dear friend

How can you be sure she did the right thing when none of us can be certain just when the Tribulation will take place.

I have an open mind, I am not sure when it will be, I keep that open mind, because I have learnt that scripture has an uncanny way of revealing another Truth in The Word that can change our original thoughts.

Now let me put my situation this way, if I believe in the Post Trib. and stick to it, what happens if the Rapture is before the Tribulation Period, what happens if the Rapture occurs mid way, before The Great Tribulation period, in effect I would be like the 5 unwise virgins, I wouldn't be ready, Jesus came and I thought he would come after the Tribulation Periods, or at the end of them.

I would also not like to be one of the people who guided her into thinking it wouldn't happen until the end.

I am not being judgemental at all, far from it, your comments of such are unnecessary, I am just offering other views for consideration based on your example.

Peace be with you.

 

[Brother-Paul]

That makes no sense! I think you and several others here need to look at what you believe and REPENT! God will not steal, kill, and destroy in the aftermath of the rapture! What you, Sue D, and B-A-C need to do is utilize a little logic about this pre-trib, pre-wrath, or mid-trib rapture stuff. It gets to the point of outright absurdity and ignorance.

It appears from your comment that it makes no sense to you, that is because you have made your mind up the Rapture will be Post Trib. Your mind is set. Everyone is wrong but you. May I suggest with the best intentions and love, that you start another thread yourself to discuss the rapture and it's timing, that way you can get your point over from the start.

Thank you for your comments regarding the Tribulation Period.

I think in the best interest of the forum and all members that this thread you return to the New Jerusalem, our Eternal Home, on the New Earth, when Heaven and Earthy are connected God with Man, Emmanuel, God with us.

In His Love

 

[Hekuran]

Greetings brother

From what you are saying am I right in believing your are post trib.

I am a constant assessor, I always read scripture with an open mind, open to the Spirit, I need time to pray and read more my friend. You raise a good point but it is how the thoughts here relate to other scriptures.

I do at this point look at the following scripture brother B-A-C just included from Mark's Gospel...

Mark 13:27;
"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven

The last 6 words were not included by Matthew.

If this is Jesus' Glorious 'Return' why would Mark say, we are gathered together, to go to the farthest end of Heaven?

I wouldn't describe myself as post trib. I'm awaiting Christ's return to earth in glory, and I don't see how the rapture (the saints being caught up to heaven) fits with what the bible teaches.

The description in Mark is three ways - ends of the earth, four winds, farthest end of heaven - of emphasising everywhere. None of God's children will be overlooked.

May I suggest you do a thought experiment, just to try on what I'm saying and see if it fits.

Read the key passages in Revelation, 1 Thessalonians etc without assuming there's a rapture of any kind and see if they make sense. Do they become more or less clear and coherent?

 

[Brother-Paul]

I wouldn't describe myself as post trib. I'm awaiting Christ's return to earth in glory, and I don't see how the rapture (the saints being caught up to heaven) fits with what the bible teaches.

The description in Mark is three ways - ends of the earth, four winds, farthest end of heaven - of emphasising everywhere. None of God's children will be overlooked.

May I suggest you do a thought experiment, just to try on what I'm saying and see if it fits.

Read the key passages in Revelation, 1 Thessalonians etc without assuming there's a rapture of any kind and see if they make sense. Do they become more or less clear and coherent?

Greeting brother

Thank you for you comments and suggestion, I will do as you suggest, I always like to study for a while and then come back and study more. As stated I keep an open mind, I presently consider the Rapture by the mid way point before the Great Tribulation, but I never set those thoughts in stone.

We have spent quite a bit of time following the discussions that were raised but I feel it is time now for this thread to return to The New Jerusalem on the New Earth.

Thank you for your comments they are always appreciated.

Bless you.

 

[saginon]

It appears from your comment that it makes no sense to you, that is because you have made your mind up the Rapture will be Post Trib. Your mind is set. Everyone is wrong but you. May I suggest with the best intentions and love, that you start another thread yourself to discuss the rapture and it's timing, that way you can get your point over from the start.

Thank you for your comments regarding the Tribulation Period.

I think in the best interest of the forum and all members that this thread you return to the New Jerusalem, our Eternal Home, on the New Earth, when Heaven and Earthy are connected God with Man, Emmanuel, God with us.

In His Love

Maybe your best intensions should be to not judge people's salvation like you did my friend, not judge whether she witnessed to her children, and see that God loves people enough to not kill them in the rapture.

I believe I'm correct about a lot of things and I know most people do. You and several others believe it is God's righteous judgment to steal, kill, and destroy at the rapture. I was told that I deny the inspired word of God by another poster. This is my last reply here, I can tell when things start going bad. You can all go on believing God will kill innocent people in the rapture. Your mind is set - their mind is set - my mind is set. I believe that God is not a terrorist.

1 You do not believe God will make none believers suffer death due to a saved soul being raptured.

Correct. Not only is that unscriptural, it is unnecessary and it makes God look reckless and a respecter of persons. Within an 8 hour period God is able to remove all the elect without killing anybody. You folks think it's appropriate for God to steal, kill, and destroy. There's no need to make unbelievers suffer in the rapture. Unbelievers - if they chose to remain in unbelief, will suffer as the result of judgment. IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE DOES NOT MEAN ALL AT ONCE!

Go ahead and quote ONE verse that says He does make non-believers suffer death due to a saved soul being raptured ! You can't do it because there are none! Yet YOU are the one who often uses the word - SCRIPTURAL!

John Ankerberg, Renald Showers, Ron Rhodes, Jimmy DeYoung, Ed Hindson, Hal Lindsey, and John Hagee (etc. etc.) teach that and that's why people believe it!

2 Do you therefore thing God finds it acceptable to let 'saved believers' suffer, not just the Tribulation, but Hell on earth in the Great Tribulation.

Everybody goes through tribulation - believer - and unbeliever alike. There are several scriptures that say we are destined to suffer tribulation, even suffer THROUGH the tribulation period but I bet you and others don't know what they are!

God lifted Noah and his family out before the flood, before the wicked none believers died in the flood. Jesus will, I believe, lift His Bride, His Church out before the wicked are dealt with.

What do you mean, "God lifted Noah and his family out before the flood?"

God save Noah THROUGH the flood - he didn't remove him from it. He saved Daniel THROUGH the lions den-He didn't remove him from it. He saved the three Hebrew children THROUGH the fiery furnace - He didn't remove them from it. He save Job THROUGH his trials - He didn't remove him from them.

The bible is quite clear when these things occur. Jesus said the gathering happens AFTER the tribulation. In 1 Thes. - Paul mentions the parousia right with the harpazo in the same cluster of verses...

1 Thes. 4:14-17 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
parousia

What is the parousia?
The future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.

The gathering - the resurrection - the rapture - the parousia - the second coming - happen at the last trump - toward the END of tribulation. Not before, not in the middle, not pre-wrath. The rapture and the second coming happen at the same time or very close together. There is NOT a 7 or 3 1/2 year span between the rapture and the second coming.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I am sure the Millennium Period we will return to our mixed discussions, if I ask when with the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will occur another debate will no doubt start, so for now lets move back to the New Jerusalem, Zion, The Church.

A quick look from outside at what John saw that we have not mentioned already.

Rev 21:12 - John moves from describing the New Jerusalem's general appearance to its exterior design beginning with the walls. Human words are incapable of describing what John is trying to tell us, which is why he keeps using similes, saying “it is like” to help us visualise what he sees. He gives us just enough to excite our hearts and stir our souls. God, through John, gets us as close to the understanding of this place as our finite minds can comprehend.

THE WALLS of the city are described as “great and high,” and are an obvious symbol of exclusion of all that are unworthy to enter the city. Though innumerable believers will enjoy its glory, there is the chilling reminder that only the redeemed may enter.

How high will the walls be? We are not told but, we know the city will be approx. 1500 miles east to west, 1500 miles north to south and 1500 miles high. We are also told that IN THE CITY there will be no need for the sun and moon light

Rev 21:23
23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Rev 22:5
There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

So will the walls actually be that height, or is the spiritual light contained, we cannot be sure, but scripture is clear, THE CITY had no need of the sun or moon to shine IN it.

What an amazing sight it will be, we will be in total awe. Not just the walls the pearl gates, the light shining through the 12 gates that are unlocked day and night and are guarded with 12 angels, but also that it's foundations are above ground!

Rev 21:14 (NKJV)
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

INSIDE The New Jerusalem

We looked at what scripture said, starting from the Throne of Grace with God's Glory and Jesus at His Right Hand, Jesus is the Light that fills the Holy City, 24 hours a day. We saw the crystal water of the single river flowing down from the Throne, with the trees of life on either side, each bearing fruits, a different fruit for every month of the year and each tree had leaves for healing the Nations, we held a question mark regarding the leaves for healing the Nations, on the New Heaven/New Earth that was sin free and curse free.

What we didn't include in our discussions so far was the most common scripture verse in the Bible used at funerals, for the saved and the mis-guided lost souls.

Inside the Holy City In my Father's House

John 14:1-4, 6 (NKJV)
1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
4 And where I go you know, and the way you know."

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Providing we are Born-Again.

What a wonderful place God has planned for us, all this for us, sinners as we are, Jesus died to give us all this, No.
Jesus died to save us from our sins, as saved believers we inherit this because we are sons of God.

Amazing Grace, Amazing Love, Amazing place, and yet there is lots more... we can start the whats more, lots more discussion soon.

(To be continued)

 

[B-A-C]

1 Cor 2:9; But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

If it's true that no eye has ever seen, and no hear has ever heard... the things which God has prepared for those love Him.
I've seen some pretty amazing things, I've heard some pretty incredible stuff. But I'm not sure can even fathom what heaven will be like.
I know the song says "I can Only Imagine". But can we really?

 

[Brother-Paul]

1 Cor 2:9; But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

If it's true that no eye has ever seen, and no hear has ever heard... the things which God has prepared for those love Him.
I've seen some pretty amazing things, I've heard some pretty incredible stuff. But I'm not sure can even fathom what heaven will be like.
I know the song says "I can Only Imagine". But can we really?

So true brother but, we are given an incredible picture in scripture which already leaves us in awe. \o/ \o/ \o/

 

[Brother-Paul]

We, the Saved souls, the born again, the new creations, have by now received our Glorious bodies, Praise the Lord, thanks be to God.

We have seen the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, we stand in awe in the Light of Christ and explore the wonders of the 1500 mile square City.

The thrones take our breath away, the crystal clear water in the river from the throne is so clear, we have never seen or tasted anything like it.

We look around for our loved ones, our friends who are saved. At this point we may not find them, after all 1500 mile square is some city, that is 2 million 250 thousand square miles. Remember on earth when people used to take the micky our of our faith and said Heaven would be a small place. I bet they wish they could see what we see.

Our mind cannot settle on one thing for one minute, the beauty, the splendour, takes our breath away. We take a walk by the river side, gaze at the Trees, the fruit, the leaves, remembering what scripture had told us they would be like, what they would do, a different fruit every month, and the reason for the leaves.

We see others taking fruit from the trees by the river and eating them, we try one also, the taste is like nothing we have tasted before.

Am I going to far? I don't think so, when Jesus returned the first time He walked by the lake side, He ate fish with the disciples, we will have a glorified body just like the one Jesus had. At this stage we will have experienced the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, I appreciate we have temporarily bye-passed the marriage supper to get to this stage we can come back to that later. For now we are taking in, if it is possible, the New Jerusalem, the Holy City, its immense size, its beauty.

It is nothing like the jokes on earth we heard about, heaven being angels strumming harps on white clouds.

We have, as children of God, received the inheritance He promised us all, it will take forever to discover what God has prepared for us.

1 Corinthians 2:6-10
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”— the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

(To be continued)