Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[Brother-Paul]

Brother Paul, there is no Christian, no 'new creation' at the time of Jesus.

I think Waggles hit the nail on the head. We need to each define exactly what we believe a Christian is.

As stated brother, I used the word Christian as a follower of Jesus, based on the number of times 'follow him' is said in scripture and the times Jesus said follow me.

It was not to be taken as definition of a christian, no no, it was meant as stated above and previously in the thread.

I hope that makes sense and should not be taken any other way brother.

 

[Brother-Paul]

If you don't work at it you lose, you have said it yourself.

We need to strive and sweat to not be among the vines cut off? Never give up, always persevere.

= Works based

Total rubbish brother

Jesus says... when we abide in the vine, abide in Him, we are to bear fruit to bring Glory to God.

Is that work, certainly not. We are to abide, we are to practice righteousness, is that work brother? Certainly not.

Is doing God's will work brother? Today many say yes, they are paid pastors (under all sorts of names), they have a contract of employment, they work to get holiday pay, they work to get a pension. They have an employer; they must perform for their employer! That is work!

In the early church, the ekklesia, they did not get homes to live in, they didn't have buildings to worship in, they didn't get paid. Everybody gave for the common good, they did what they did in love for God.

Salvation cannot be worked for, it cannot be purchased, it comes through Jesus, with the help of then Holy Spirit, to those who have been born again from above (which means fulfilling the requests made, confession, baptism, submission, spiritual regeneration and followed with abiding... salvation starts as a promise, that promise is fulfilled completely when we are with the Lord for Eternity.

No work brother, no sweat, just faith, obedience and continued abiding.

Shalom

 

[KingJ]

Greetings Sue,

This is true and reflected in John 15, we are grafted into the vine when we are born again from above, the Holy Spirit dwells in us because, all good ness comes from the root, through Jesus to the grafted in branch.

What Jesus is saying in John 15:1-17 is all about the born-again soul, who has repented, proclaimed their faith, give their life to Jesus, they are in Him and His Spirit is in them, ABIDING together. Jesus confirms all that in these scriptures, then He says,

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

If a person does not abide in the Vine, in Jesus, they are practicing sin, not practicing righteousness. They have returned to their sinful says, following sin and the world of sin, not following Jesus, not abiding in Jesus.

God is not to blame, He has done everything, it is up to us to ensure we ABIDE in Christ Jesus, so He can abide in us.

The only person to blame is the person. Jesus is very clear, his message in the parable is graphic so we get the message




OSAS if false teaching, false preaching. Jesus confirms this in John 15

Shalom

You keep quoting a verse from the time the word 'Christian' did not exist.

You teach that a Christian is merely a '''follower'' of Jesus and not as I explain here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

No, @Brother-Paul, God is not someone who grafts a ''follower'' who ''puts their feet in church'' and ''tastes'' Christian life, into His family.

 

[KingJ]

Total rubbish brother

Jesus says... when we abide in the vine, abide in Him, we are to bear fruit to bring Glory to God.

Is that work, certainly not. We are to abide, we are to practice righteousness, is that work brother? Certainly not.

Is doing God's will work brother? Today many say yes, they are paid pastors (under all sorts of names), they have a contract of employment, they work to get holiday pay, they work to get a pension. They have an employer; they must perform for their employer! That is work!

In the early church, the ekklesia, they did not get homes to live in, they didn't have buildings to worship in, they didn't get paid. Everybody gave for the common good, they did what they did in love for God.

Salvation cannot be worked for, it cannot be purchased, it comes through Jesus, with the help of then Holy Spirit, to those who have been born again from above (which means fulfilling the requests made, confession, baptism, submission, spiritual regeneration and followed with abiding... salvation starts as a promise, that promise is fulfilled completely when we are with the Lord for Eternity.

No work brother, no sweat, just faith, obedience and continued abiding.

Shalom

You are beating around the bush. Explain to me how your idea of ''abiding'' in Him is not works.

You have the cart before the horse. The early Christians did all those good ''works'' because God changed their heart.

I truly want to know what you believe I need to do in order to stay saved, if not ''works''.

A non-OSAS belief puts believers set free, back into the bondage of filthy rag works. A marriage certificate to Jesus with tons and tons of fine print....

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yes it is. If salvation is not once for all, then that's not salvation at all. Yeshua was a healer at most of the time, did he just manage the symptom - like modern conventional medicine does? Or did he remove the disease once for all? Same goes for salvation. Non-OSAS belief indicates that it was not finished, it was just a temporary fix like the old animal sacrifice, if you "fail to abide in him", you lose your salvation and you have to be saved again. That definitely undermines the cross as the title of this thread says.

Jesus was far more than a healer brother.

The way you're thumping on this one analogy in John 15 and talking about "abiding" shows you're boasting of our work, as if we can do it by ourselves, but the truth is, abiding in him is the Holy Spirit's job, not ours, for "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit," Zech. 4:6.

I am not thumping on, I am quoting what Jesus is sayi9ng, how the parable is described by him. If you think that you have not accepted the scripture.

The Holy spirit abides in us, when we abide in Him, it is the Holy Spirit that reveals the Truth in The Word, it is the Holy Spirit that connects with our spirit at the point we are born again from above. All goodness comes from God, the root, all goodness (the Holy Spirit) runs from the root, through the vine, through Jesus, to those who are grafted into the vine. The Holy Spirit in our hearts, connecting to our spirit, and the Command from Jesus is...

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Then comes the warning
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

If you're really familiar with the whole narrative of the bible and able to draw connections, you would realize that John 15 is NOT necessarily talking about salvation. Being "cut off" was a common expression of being banished from the Jewish community as a means of punishment, there was the formerly blind man who testified of the miracle that Yeshua opening his eyes, and he was "cut off" from the synagogue. In the church, that's commonly known as "excommunication", and again, that targets unrepentant individual in THIS MORTAL LIFE, to give them a bitter taste of the cruel world controlled by Satan, and if they come to their senses, they will return like that prodigal son. That is irrespective of the next life. You have to fit your understanding into the biblical narrative, not fitting the biblical narrative into your understanding.

I listen to what you say, I agree with many things you say, cut off, cast out, all mean removed and yest I agree 'cut off' was a common OT expression.

I never try fit the Biblical narrative into my own understanding, but do feel there are others on here that do.

God's Word is God's Word, prepared ahead of time, for all generations, regardless of age, sex, colour, tribe, jew or gentile. His Word is Truth.

Shalom

 

[Waggles]

Salvation is not works based - salvation is faithful discipleship.
And saved Christians can and do lose their love of God and his righteousness.
"Quench not the Spirit" - why is this warning given to Pentecostal disciples ? [quench = extinguish]
Because it is possible for Spirit-filled disciples who have enjoyed the power of God in their lives to lapse in faith and to let their lamps run empty.
I have seen it.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Don’t you know that the cross is a symbol of shame and cruelty? Carrying your cross is like carrying an electric chair. No early Christian used the cross as their symbol, they used the fish symbol instead. The cross is but a reminder of Christ’s sacrifice for us, it’s never supposed to have any power by and of itself, because it was the Holy Spirit that raised Christ from death to life.

I sure do Jonathan, I am also fully aware of the ichthus.

The above-mentioned situation was shared to explain what I experienced thirty years ago, having only just been born again. I saw the warnings from the start and cut myself from it, dusted the sand of my shoes and left.

 

[Brother-Paul]

what do you think Jesus means when he says we must be worthy,

, Jesus tells every church except one in the book of revelation they must DO something in order not to be blotted out of the book of life, or not be vomited out of his mouth, ... he does NOT say relax do anything just say you believe and all is good..

Why is that Jesus says to all the churches I KNOW YOUR WORKS, and it seems he is not happy with most of them and tells them to DO SOMETHING MORe WORKS, he does not say just say you believe and all is good.

Greetings Dave

Lovely to chat again, I pray you are well.

Amen brother, Not One Church of the seven was right with God, yet all think they are, all preach they are, all proclaim to follow the Gospel, we are a Gospel believing church they say!

Why because most don't even know what the ekklesia is.

Bless you brother

 

[Brother-Paul]

So, you agree with a works based salvation. I don't. Not at all.

There is some truth to works for sure. But you and @Brother-Paul are getting the cart before the horse.

I can make a girl a cup of coffee everyday for 50 years, but not choose to marry her. This does not make her my wife. Depth of love will produce fruit like this, but the opposite is not necessarily true.

If she was someone I loved enough to marry, I would definitely do such.

Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

This verse sums up OSAS.

As I am mentioned I should reply.

The word 'definition' comes to mind and seems to be a big issue, not just here.

Definition of church
Definition of adide
Definition of salvation
Definition of work based
Definition of OSAS compared to scripture
Probably even definition of a definition.

Frustrating really I think.

 

[Brother-Paul]

You keep quoting a verse from the time the word 'Christian' did not exist.

You teach that a Christian is merely a '''follower'' of Jesus and not as I explain here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

No, @Brother-Paul, God is not someone who grafts a ''follower'' who ''puts their feet in church'' and ''tastes'' Christian life, into His family.

You talk nonsense at times @KingJ,

I made a comment I have explained twice and you continue like a gramophone need that is stuck in one slot.

Your last comment couldn't be further away from the truth, as stated previously

A person who goes to church is not a Christian.

First get Church right

- kuriakkon, a word introduced by the RCC for the building. NOT IN Scripture.

- ekklesia, the body of Christ, the one and only True Church

- You do not go to church, no no, you go to be with the church
- The congregation is NOT the church, only the born again from above are the ekklesia, the Church, the Body of Christ

WHY?
- Because God is Spirit
- We worship in Spirit and Truth
- Only those who are born again, grafted into the vine and abide in Him are the church, the spiritual body of believers with the Holy Spirit of Christ in them

You can be a member of a group, a denomination, call it what you will, but being a member of a group calling yourself a church only makes you a member of the group, not the body of Christ.

What is a Christian brother?

 

[Brother-Paul]

You are beating around the bush. Explain to me how your idea of ''abiding'' in Him is not works.

Abiding is submitting to Jesus, submitting to His Commands, Following His teaching, by those things, [NOT WORKS], we will bear much fruit.

Read John 15 brother, there are many more scriptures that confirm this.

 

[Waggles]

Salvation is not works based - salvation is faithful discipleship.
Matt 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Luke 19:17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’

Acts 11:22 The report of this came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch.
23 When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad, and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose,

Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. [the saints in the body of Christ]
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
This is addressed to Pentecostal Christians who are saved !!

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I am not thumping on, I am quoting what Jesus is sayi9ng, how the parable is described by him. If you think that you have not accepted the scripture.

Yes you are, this is the only section you keep quoting to deny OSAS, and you're taking it out of context. Do you realize that this whole speech is known as the "farewell discourse" that took place at the Last Supper? Yeshua was about to be arrested, tried and crucified, John 15 was in his parting words to his disciples, and you're taking it out of the context. This analogy was urging us to abide in the church congregation, for the church is the body of Christ, based on Gen. 2:23 -

"This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

We the church was cleansed of our sins by the power of His blood that literally flew out of his side. When Yeshua said, "I am the vine, you're the branches," that's referring to the Church body and each individuals. Yeshua was teaching them how to run the ministry after he was gone - in his absence. Believers ought to stick together and follow the guide of the holy spirit. You've heard a lot of people say that "I'm spiritual but not religious," what they mean is that they're "lone wolf Christians" who don't think they need any fellowship and group support, they can worship on their own, and that is how the branch is falling off and withering away. He wasn't talking about eternal salvation in that speech as you think.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Jesus was far more than a healer brother.

Yes, because unlike a normal healer, He healed instantly and permanently, that's the very essence and a vivid demonstration of OSAS, and you're denying it.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The wages is sin is death, that we are all sure to agree on brother.

But I cannot accept your suggestion when I listen to what Jesus tells us in John 15:1-17.

- Jesus is explaining in parable form, God is the root of the vine from which all goodness comes from.
- Jesus then explains, He is the vine which is fed by the goodness from God, describing His closeness, His abiding.
- Then He explains we are the branches of the vine, grafted into the vine (when born again from above)
- The connection to God is through Jesus
- The goodness of God comes through the vine to each born again soul
- Without Jesus we can do nothing, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus >>> We must listen to Him <<<

Why are we grafted into the vine
- to bear fruit and bring Glory to God.
- if we are not grafted into the vine, we are not born again from above, but Jesus is clear we are in Him so He can be in us and grow and bear fruit.
- There we can be 100% certain Jesus is telling us who are born again, grafted into the vine, of our connection to God through Him, and that we MUST abide in Him to bear fruit.

If we do not bear fruit we will wither, but that doesn't mean we are automatically cut out, cast out of the vine, no no, the vinedresser will prune those who are flourishing in fruit to bear more fruit. Depending how much we wither is whether or not the gardener, God the Father cuts us out.

Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God our Father.

How can anyone reject the words of Jesus over other beliefs?

Regarding scripture, I am open always to the scriptures, open always to the Spirit revealing something to me I may have missed. He certainly surprizes us from time to time!

When scriptures appear to conflict, I keep an open mind, scriptures never conflict, it is us humans who don't understand at that time. When we get different views, as we have and will on other items, I keep my mind and heart open. In this case I have not received enough from OSAS believes to convince my heart that that view is correct. Now it has been said, to not believe OSAS is dangerous, I would reply that to believe OSAS is very dangerous, more dangerous.

OSAS is not in the scriptures, Jesus' words are! Jesus words speak the Truth, He has all authority, how can anyone not accept Him at His Word?

Now if others had provided enough evidence from scripture, to make me think they have a strong point, then I would immediately say, there has to be another reason, we must pray and search the scriptures. But this is not the case.

I have accepted all scriptures raised on the topic, but it does not appear OSAS believers, have tried to explain what Jesus says in, John 15:1-17, that they believe it doesn't mean what he actually says, even though they are words of warning from our Lord himself. Born again believers, grafted into the vine, who wither from righteousness back to sin, can be, will be, says Jesus cast out, cut out of the connection with God.

I appreciate many comments made, God is Love and he wouldn't do such a thing! That is not what Jesus says, it is not what God through the scriptures says. If you are not born again of water and spirit you will not see, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven, Vengeance is mine says the Lord, etc, etc.

You're not listening to the whole Farewell Discourse and fitting John 15:1-8 in it. Instead, you're using John 15:1-8 as a hammer, and knocking anything else like a nail. In this discourse Yeshua was telling his disciples about the Holy Spirit, the promised Helper, and only by the power of the Holy Spirit can they abide in Him - after he was gone. He was giving instructions and encouragement to all of his disciples, which means the church, the congregation of all his people, not just tutoring one specific disciple in a private session.

In fact, "all disciples forsook him and fled" when he was arrested, and Yeshua had accurately predicted that (John 16:32), tell me, were they all cut off? Had they all lost their salvation? When Peter denied Yeshua three times, did he lose his salvation? When Paul wrote about his struggle with sin and bemoaned, "O wretched man that I am!" (Rom. 7:24), did he lose his salvation? "Born again" and "born of the spirit" are the same thing, and if we're born of the spirit, then the spirit is in us, and only by the power of the spirit can we abide in him, and that birth can NOT be reversed, for "nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Yeshua HaMashiach our Lord."

 

[PloughBoy]

I will proclaim throughout all eternity. "There is "Security" If you are In CHRIST" and That word "IF" is a Big WORD. Especially when speaking about The "REDEEMED of THE LORD" for This World knows nothing about them and who they really are.

"O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;
And gathered them out of the lands, from the East, and from the West, from the North, and from the South."


And if you are "IN CHRIST" no beast no devil no demon or angel can reach in, And snatch you out, you cannot even walk out. And He will never kick you out! How can He cut you out! if you are apart of Him, and reject His own, that which is "BORN of GOD" and not a earthly birth born of a man. "Holy and Acceptable". and Bought Purchase by GOD, Paid for in Full. You could not run away, if you could.

He Chose you, you did not choose Him. And when do you tell Him, he could buy you. He is "SOVEREIGN" not us. We do not give Him Orders, The Clay is arrogant, sinful and down right Bold, to the very end. As if, he is God. and decides His own destination.

That is another reason why, we receive Grace and Mercy before the WORLD even existed. It was ORDAIN, Decreed and The Mission is Not Completed but "indicative" not until we receive Our GLORIFIED bodies, and then and only Then we shall LOOK JUST LIKE HIM.. Created in His Image! And "The MISSION has been Finally COMPLETED, which began in Eternity and travel to "Creation" in Genesis and Travel across the Universe and Touch down in "Bethlehem Ephrathah" and Then THEN when We shall be clothe in His Likeness and then we shall be Just Like HIM! "HOLY and ACCEPTABLE" and will receive Our Full shared "Inheritance". So says The BOOK. For low he said He comes in "The VOLUME of the BOOK"

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body didst thou prepare for me;
In whole burnt offerings and' sacrifices for sin thou hadst no pleasure:
Then said I, Lo, I am come (In the roll of the book it is written of me) To do thy will, O God."

For The BOOK, is A hidden BOOK to the un regenerated, those who have not been Converted into a "New Creature" for many have no idea For what the Story Is all about. They Speculate they guess they assume and create their own stories with the "FINITE" mind, describing that which is "Infinite" and cannot be "Comprehended" by a "mere Mortal's mind" of that which is "Incomprehensible" for the "FINITE Mind". but yet They still go from one stone to another, stone. Well, what stone are you talking about? The Stumbling Stone, The Rock of Offense The Chief Cornerstone.

…"Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written: “See,I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”


OSAS! If you was saved. works does not saved you, "Jesus does"

 

[KingJ]

Abiding is submitting to Jesus, submitting to His Commands, Following His teaching, by those things, [NOT WORKS], we will bear much fruit.

Read John 15 brother, there are many more scriptures that confirm this.

Salvation is not works based - salvation is faithful discipleship.
Matt 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Luke 19:17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’

Acts 11:22 The report of this came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch.
23 When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad, and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose,

Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. [the saints in the body of Christ]
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
This is addressed to Pentecostal Christians who are saved !!

Dear brothers you need to read the story of the young rich man. You guys are quoting John, Matthew and Luke. For context on these passages you have selected, you need to consider Matt 19:16-30.

The young rich man obeyed all the laws, but Jesus said that that is not enough to enter heaven. He must also go and sell all he has.

This speaks to the fact that his heart was not sold out to Jesus. Having a heart sold out to Jesus is Christianity 101 as explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

With regards to Christianity specifically (post gospels), you two are getting the cart before the horse.

Eph 2:9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. (Post and pre 'salvation', you simply moving the goal posts)

If you keep yourself saved, you can certainly boast of '''your ability''' to remain faithful. Whether you are saved at first or saved because you ''remain faithful'', it is all reliant on the same 'thing', your works.

You quote scripture on ''remain faithful''. Remaining faithful to ''keep salvation'' is.....obeying the laws, church attendance, breaking of bread, confession...IE Works .

Some say ''faith''. Which is even more embarrassing to defend. As the implication is that believing the ''unseen is seen'' has value to God.

 

[KingJ]

You talk nonsense at times @KingJ,

I made a comment I have explained twice and you continue like a gramophone need that is stuck in one slot.

We are all repeating our arguments to be honest. I am waiting for you to stop quoting from the gospels as the word ''Christian and the Holy Spirit'' were not around at the time.

Your last comment couldn't be further away from the truth, as stated previously

A person who goes to church is not a Christian.

You said a Christian is a follower.

Please, stop beating around the bush, come to this thread and explain to me what you believe a Christian is, with scripture to support your assertion. What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

First get Church right

- kuriakkon, a word introduced by the RCC for the building. NOT IN Scripture.

- ekklesia, the body of Christ, the one and only True Church

- You do not go to church, no no, you go to be with the church
- The congregation is NOT the church, only the born again from above are the ekklesia, the Church, the Body of Christ

WHY?
- Because God is Spirit
- We worship in Spirit and Truth
- Only those who are born again, grafted into the vine and abide in Him are the church, the spiritual body of believers with the Holy Spirit of Christ in them

You worship in spirit and truth? You sure about that? I believe that but don't see how non-OSAS supports that.

If you do not ''do'' church attendance, obeying laws, breaking of bread, confession.....how do you remain faithful? Worshipping God in ''Spirit and truth'' is not ''remaining faithful''. The two phrases are not mutually inclusive.

You can be a member of a group, a denomination, call it what you will, but being a member of a group calling yourself a church only makes you a member of the group, not the body of Christ.

What is a Christian brother?

I explain what a Christian is here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

 

[KingJ]

Total rubbish brother

Jesus says... when we abide in the vine, abide in Him, we are to bear fruit to bring Glory to God.

You need to think of a relationship. We as Christians are in a relationship with Jesus.

In a marriage, how do you ''remain'' in the marriage?

There should be ''one'' rule. Namely, no adultery Matt 19:9 and Matt 5:32. I guess with Jesus that would be the unpardonable sin of 'not cursing / rejecting the Holy Spirit'.

Outside of that, you can take your chains of ''service'' off, relax and just engage on a new level with your spouse.

However, before marriage, there is no true 'relationship'. As a result, there is effort / works required. Dating, presents, saying the right things, visiting the family, opening the car door, walks in the park, weekly date night, six months of courting if you attend my church. Without these works, there is no trust of love and likely no marriage.

Think also of a house helper that you decide to marry. After marriage can you demand they clean the kitchen? They may do it out of love, but do you think a husband will ever be able to say he loves his wife if he says ''clean the kitchen or we getting a divorce''. Imagine that. That is what non-OSAS implies...

All non-OSAS believers do not understand that they are in a new relationship with God. You are almost on par with the Jews still living by the law.

The law of God is written on our hearts. We are not defined by our works, but by our heart intent.

Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here.

Worshipping God in spirit of truth means, worship originating from the ''heart''. This ''IS'' what God wants. Not ''works''.

John 4:23-24 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

 

[KingJ]

Abiding is submitting to Jesus, submitting to His Commands, Following His teaching, by those things, [NOT WORKS], we will bear much fruit.

His commands were to obey all the laws and give up everything we have Matt 19:16-30.

How are these not '''works'' . They are the definition of works.

Saying works are needed after salvation to stay saved is the same thing as saying works are needed before salvation to be saved. You are....merely moving the goal posts. The underlying criteria in your belief for salvation, is works.

You are trying to change the definition of ''works''. Sorry, Brother Paul, you do not get to re-invent the word 'works' just because you don't want to mention it in your belief.