Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[Brother-Paul]

It would seem that the core of the problem is the definition and understanding of "being saved."
Reading @KingJ posts there are major doctrinal differences about how a person is saved.
For myself I rely on scripture to teach me the truth of this matter ... and I prefer not to add to scripture with church derived theologies.

Amen brother.

Biased opinion says, find 'a verse' that fits my belief.

Let scripture speak, allow the Holy Spirit to reveal the Truth in the word, that is his job.

Church derived theologies, start with those who profess to go to a church or are part of a church don't know what the Church, the ekklesia, the Body of Christ really is from scripture, yet everyone believe they are right with God, everyone say we are a Gospel believing church.

Bless you brother Waggles

 

[Brother-Paul]

By the way, I gotta warn you that non-OSAS belief is DANGEROUS, it espouses work based religion. You know why Yeshua in always on the cross in Roman Catholics? Why they had to sacrifice him with the bread and wine at every Eucharist? Because they don't believe in OSAS, they have to regularly reattain salvation. That nullifies salvation and glorifies futile works of self-righteousness.

Greetings Jonathan

First I must add, I am not a catholic, and do not agree with so much of what they do, preach and practice, how can we?

I reply regarding, 'Christ on the cross'

Why Do Catholics Keep Christ on the Cross?​

Taken from catholicsay.com

Doesn’t Christianity celebrate the Resurrection?​

Q: I had a friend ask me why Catholics have crucifixes in our churches — don’t we believe Jesus has risen? Why do we keep Him on the cross?

A: First of all, you would want to check out 1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” Why does Paul preach Christ crucified? Doesn’t he know Jesus has been raised from the dead? Of course he does! But, he knows that it is through the power of the crucified Christ on the cross that the bonds of sin and death are broken. As he says in verse 24, Christ crucified is the “power of God.”

1 Cor 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” Again, didn’t Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? Of course he did.

Paul preaches Christ crucified because an empty cross has no power. The cross that bears the beaten, battered, and bloodied body of Jesus Christ, however, that cross is the “power of God”. So, we “keep Jesus on the cross” because we too preach Christ crucified. And the crucifix reminds us of not only of God’s power, but also His love for us – giving His only begotten Son up for suffering and death.

Also, here in this life we do not share so much in the glory of the Resurrection, as we do in the suffering of Jesus on the cross; after all, we must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus,
as it says in Lk 9:23.

And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us. Where did Christ die? On the cross. The crucifix serves to remind us of these things.

Around 30 years ago, in my 'baby years' as a born-again Christian, I attended a churches together in the area we lived. There were many denominations involved.

The first thing I noticed was that all other denominations had a few from each that went to the ones in the group one by one, the catholic's never attended any other denomination!

The second was in the RC place of worship, there was a small number of their congregation, plus others from the other denominations. It was a small service, of songs and prayer, when it came to prayer I was all eyes, I watched people, not just catholic's, kneeling to pray and in no time at all they were looking at the graven image of Jesus, which was roughly twice human size and placed to look down on the congregation. Even as a so young born-again soul I felt uncomfortable.

After the singing all left and entered a large hall for tea, coffee and biscuits. Clergy stood with clergy, a social gathering no more. I asked why there was a figurine of Jesus on the cross in the catholic church, I was told, because it helps people pray and worship. I never returned.

 

[Brother-Paul]

By the way, I gotta warn you that non-OSAS belief is DANGEROUS, it espouses work based religion.

How do you explain that non-OSAS belief is work based religion?

It is not work based.

A person becomes a born again christian, they abide in Christ for Him to abide in them. They are on the narrow path to salvation but, they have to remain on that narrow path, we read the warnings of straying off the narrow path.

In the same way, different parable, Jesus tells us how we are grafted into the vine, grafted into him to abide in him.

This is not by works, we are saved by grace through faith. But we are on the road to salvation.

The issue arises, for us, if we come off the narrow path, if our heart goes cold and we fall back into sin and the sins of the world. Jesus here warns us, if we wither, we will be cut out, collected and burned. It is not God that has done this, it is not Jesus that did this, we are told to practice righteousness, but instead practice sin. We are told to remain on the narrow road, narrow path, we are told we must abide in Jesus, without Him we can do nothing, without Jesus we are no longer being fed by the sap of the vine, the Holy Spirit.

We have no one to blame but ourselves, at every stage. The Word is Truth, The Truth is in The Word, every word.

Shalom

 

[Sue D.]

Scripture also tells us that when a person becomes a born -again believer that the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person and stays with them until the person is safe with Jesus Christ. So, thus it is said 'once saved always saved '. When the Holy Spirit indwells a person, it's the Holy Spirit who changes our desires. The person will have inner peace that hadn't been there before. A desire to please God. There will a desire to share Christ in some way

 

[KingJ]

ALL scripture, I take it brother.
You are it seems from your replies, rejecting Jesus' words in John 15, about the vine, the need to abide, and the Father cutting out those who were saved and have returned to sin.




Let us look at Hebrew 6 brother...

The Peril of Not Progressing​

Hebrews 6:1-8 [NKJV]
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

And this we will do if God permits.

v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Single verses at times can give an incorrect ideal to the actual context.

Here we see the build up of the believer, the born-again soul, the one who has tasted and liked the abiding in Christ and He to abide in them

But then we see the words... 'IF THEY FALL AWAY' what if they fall back into sin and the world and fail to abide in Jesus the vine?

Simple, they cannot be crucified in Christ again, they have withered as stated in John 15, they are rejected, they are cut out and collected to be burned. Again see John 15:1-17

A 'new creation' brother needs to be nourished, needs to be fed, Jesus explains this with the Vine and the branches, we must abide in Him, failure to do so means we have cut ourselves off from God, from Jesus, we wither, we die, we are collected and burned. Each one removed from the vine, is as it states in verse 8, rejected and near to being cursed.

The issue seems to be, your mind is set brother, you are rejecting Jesus' words in John 15, you quote some verses out of context, you want to believe once saved always saved even though other scriptures say the opposite. Providing you are born again, having been baptised of water and spirit, proclaimed your faith and rejected satan, and continue to abide in the vine, in Jesus, so He can abide in you; providing you obey his commands no need not be concerned. I look forward to meeting you brother.

But, and here is the but, the teaching of OSAS is not only a false belief; even worse, preaching such can misguide others to believing they are saved, even if they return to sin and the world of sin. Very dangerous I believe brother.

Brother Paul, there is no Christian, no 'new creation' at the time of Jesus.

I think Waggles hit the nail on the head. We need to each define exactly what we believe a Christian is.

 

[KingJ]

How do you explain that non-OSAS belief is work based religion?

If you don't work at it you lose, you have said it yourself.

We need to strive and sweat to not be among the vines cut off? Never give up, always persevere.

= Works based

 

[Dave M]

If you don't work at it you lose, you have said it yourself.

We need to strive and sweat to not be among the vines cut off? Never give up, always persevere.

= Works based

what do you think Jesus means when he says we must be worthy,

, Jesus tells every church except one in the book of revelation they must DO something in order not to be blotted out of the book of life, or not be vomited out of his mouth, ... he does NOT say relax do anything just say you believe and all is good..

Why is that Jesus says to all the churches I KNOW YOUR WORKS, and it seems he is not happy with most of them and tells them to DO SOMETHING MORe WORKS, he does not say just say you believe and all is good.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

How do you explain that non-OSAS belief is work based religion?

It is not work based.

A person becomes a born again christian, they abide in Christ for Him to abide in them. They are on the narrow path to salvation but, they have to remain on that narrow path, we read the warnings of straying off the narrow path.

In the same way, different parable, Jesus tells us how we are grafted into the vine, grafted into him to abide in him.

This is not by works, we are saved by grace through faith. But we are on the road to salvation.

The issue arises, for us, if we come off the narrow path, if our heart goes cold and we fall back into sin and the sins of the world. Jesus here warns us, if we wither, we will be cut out, collected and burned. It is not God that has done this, it is not Jesus that did this, we are told to practice righteousness, but instead practice sin. We are told to remain on the narrow road, narrow path, we are told we must abide in Jesus, without Him we can do nothing, without Jesus we are no longer being fed by the sap of the vine, the Holy Spirit.

We have no one to blame but ourselves, at every stage. The Word is Truth, The Truth is in The Word, every word.

Shalom

Yes it is. If salvation is not once for all, then that's not salvation at all. Yeshua was a healer at most of the time, did he just manage the symptom - like modern conventional medicine does? Or did he remove the disease once for all? Same goes for salvation. Non-OSAS belief indicates that it was not finished, it was just a temporary fix like the old animal sacrifice, if you "fail to abide in him", you lose your salvation and you have to be saved again. That definitely undermines the cross as the title of this thread says.

The way you're thumping on this one analogy in John 15 and talking about "abiding" shows you're boasting of our work, as if we can do it by ourselves, but the truth is, abiding in him is the Holy Spirit's job, not ours, for "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit," Zech. 4:6.

If you're really familiar with the whole narrative of the bible and able to draw connections, you would realize that John 15 is NOT necessarily talking about salvation. Being "cut off" was a common expression of being banished from the Jewish community as a means of punishment, there was the formerly blind man who testified of the miracle that Yeshua opening his eyes, and he was "cut off" from the synagogue. In the church, that's commonly known as "excommunication", and again, that targets unrepentant individual in THIS MORTAL LIFE, to give them a bitter taste of the cruel world controlled by Satan, and if they come to their senses, they will return like that prodigal son. That is irrespective of the next life. You have to fit your understanding into the biblical narrative, not fitting the biblical narrative into your understanding.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Greetings Jonathan

First I must add, I am not a catholic, and do not agree with so much of what they do, preach and practice, how can we?

I reply regarding, 'Christ on the cross'

Why Do Catholics Keep Christ on the Cross?​

Taken from catholicsay.com

Doesn’t Christianity celebrate the Resurrection?​

Q: I had a friend ask me why Catholics have crucifixes in our churches — don’t we believe Jesus has risen? Why do we keep Him on the cross?

A: First of all, you would want to check out 1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” Why does Paul preach Christ crucified? Doesn’t he know Jesus has been raised from the dead? Of course he does! But, he knows that it is through the power of the crucified Christ on the cross that the bonds of sin and death are broken. As he says in verse 24, Christ crucified is the “power of God.”

1 Cor 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” Again, didn’t Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? Of course he did.

Paul preaches Christ crucified because an empty cross has no power. The cross that bears the beaten, battered, and bloodied body of Jesus Christ, however, that cross is the “power of God”. So, we “keep Jesus on the cross” because we too preach Christ crucified. And the crucifix reminds us of not only of God’s power, but also His love for us – giving His only begotten Son up for suffering and death.

Also, here in this life we do not share so much in the glory of the Resurrection, as we do in the suffering of Jesus on the cross; after all, we must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus,
as it says in Lk 9:23.

And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us. Where did Christ die? On the cross. The crucifix serves to remind us of these things.

Around 30 years ago, in my 'baby years' as a born-again Christian, I attended a churches together in the area we lived. There were many denominations involved.

The first thing I noticed was that all other denominations had a few from each that went to the ones in the group one by one, the catholic's never attended any other denomination!

The second was in the RC place of worship, there was a small number of their congregation, plus others from the other denominations. It was a small service, of songs and prayer, when it came to prayer I was all eyes, I watched people, not just catholic's, kneeling to pray and in no time at all they were looking at the graven image of Jesus, which was roughly twice human size and placed to look down on the congregation. Even as a so young born-again soul I felt uncomfortable.

After the singing all left and entered a large hall for tea, coffee and biscuits. Clergy stood with clergy, a social gathering no more. I asked why there was a figurine of Jesus on the cross in the catholic church, I was told, because it helps people pray and worship. I never returned.

Don’t you know that the cross is a symbol of shame and cruelty? Carrying your cross is like carrying an electric chair. No early Christian used the cross as their symbol, they used the fish symbol instead. The cross is but a reminder of Christ’s sacrifice for us, it’s never supposed to have any power by and of itself, because it was the Holy Spirit that raised Christ from death to life.

 

[Waggles]

2Timothy 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. [such as OSAS]
4:5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
4:6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

[such as OSAS]

That's your opinion that undermines the Lord's sacrifice on the cross. You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own fact.

 

[KingJ]

what do you think Jesus means when he says we must be worthy,

, Jesus tells every church except one in the book of revelation they must DO something in order not to be blotted out of the book of life, or not be vomited out of his mouth, ... he does NOT say relax do anything just say you believe and all is good..

Why is that Jesus says to all the churches I KNOW YOUR WORKS, and it seems he is not happy with most of them and tells them to DO SOMETHING MORe WORKS, he does not say just say you believe and all is good.

So, you agree with a works based salvation. I don't. Not at all.

There is some truth to works for sure. But you and @Brother-Paul are getting the cart before the horse.

I can make a girl a cup of coffee everyday for 50 years, but not choose to marry her. This does not make her my wife. Depth of love will produce fruit like this, but the opposite is not necessarily true.

If she was someone I loved enough to marry, I would definitely do such.

Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

This verse sums up OSAS.

 

[KingJ]

2Timothy 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. [such as OSAS]
4:5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
4:6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

I can understand that many like to feel they earn their salvation. It appeals to hard working people. Get no freebies.

You need to understand that there is a difference between some OSAS believers and others. Their is a crowd that believes in a cheap kind of grace. That is not what I am espousing. The path to being truly saved is not simply '''calling on the name of Jesus''. As explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

__________________________

Put the bible and all preconceptions aside for a moment.

If I took a bullet for you in the army, laid my life down for yours, would I get the keys to your house? Yes or No.

 

[Dave M]

So, you agree with a works based salvation. I don't. Not at all.

There is some truth to works for sure. But you and @Brother-Paul are getting the cart before the horse.

I can make a girl a cup of coffee everyday for 50 years, but not choose to marry her. This does not make her my wife. Depth of love will produce fruit like this, but the opposite is not necessarily true.

If she was someone I loved enough to marry, I would definitely do such.

Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

This verse sums up OSAS.

nope, I believe in grace, no man could ever work his way to heaven !! see you are easily confused, let me clear this up for you, faith without works is dead.

Works are evidence that you have been changed and born again, when you simply say I believe and have not a changed life, you have not been born again. And Jesus said you must be born again to go to heaven.

Easy peasy saying I believe, so you have fire insurance and don't go to hell , just does not line up with scripture.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.


Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
yes but a tree itself can become bad as we all know and then it will bare bad fruit

 

[B-A-C]

I can understand that many like to feel they earn their salvation.

There is a "before", and an "after". You don't earn your salvation. You strive to "keep" your salvation after you already have it.

In Matthew 25, why was the "wicked and lazy" servant thrown out of the master's house?
In Matthew 25, why were "goats" sent to eternal punishment?
In Matthew 25, why were the 5 foolish virgins not allowed to enter?

In James 2:21-24; why was Abraham justified?

I can understand that many like to feel they have to do nothing in order to keep their salvation.

 

[KingJ]

nope, I believe in grace, no man could ever work his way to heaven !! see you are easily confused, let me clear this up for you, faith without works is dead.

Works are evidence that you have been changed and born again, when you simply say I believe and have not a changed life, you have not been born again. And Jesus said you must be born again to go to heaven.

Easy peasy saying I believe, so you have fire insurance and don't go to hell , just does not line up with scripture.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Heb 6 is not speaking to a Christian see my post 142. There is no such thing as a Christian that '''tastes'''. This verse speaks to those that God ''does not know'' mentioned in Matt 7:23.

Not sure how you believe in being born again and not works if you can lose your salvation after being born again.

How do you stay saved without ''works''? Lose faith? Stop believing in the ''unseen being seen''?

Non-OSAS believers have a lot of explaining to do if they say they do not believe in a works based salvation.

Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
yes but a tree itself can become bad as we all know and then it will bare bad fruit

I find this discussion interesting. I Googled ''how a tree dies''.

1. Adverse Environment - lack of water
2. Harmful Insects and Disease
3. Catastrophic Events
4. Old Age
5. Harvest

How are any of these applicable to us if the following is true (and it is true):

1 Cor 10:13 But God is faithful; He will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which ye are able to bear, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Rom 8:37-38 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A non-OSAS belief implies the tree can turn itself into another tree (bad tree) or change its roots. A tree can't do this. So using your '' bad tree'' analogy, please explain to me how a good tree becomes a bad tree. Every example mentioned here relates to an outside influence on the tree, conditions God will protect us from.

 

[KingJ]

There is a "before", and an "after". You don't earn your salvation. You strive to "keep" your salvation after you already have it.

So, you want to take credit for keeping your salvation? Three questions arise.

1. How do you strive to keep your salvation if not by works?

2. How do you explain this verse?

1 Cor 1:8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

3. Do you believe He cannot and will not keep us? He will put us through what we cannot bear? 1 Cor 10:13 is a lie?

1 Cor 10:13 But God is faithful; He will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which ye are able to bear, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

[KingJ]

In Matthew 25, why was the "wicked and lazy" servant thrown out of the master's house?
In Matthew 25, why were "goats" sent to eternal punishment?
In Matthew 25, why were the 5 foolish virgins not allowed to enter?

There was no such thing as a Christian at the time of Jesus. Matt 25 refers to repentant and unrepentant sinners. We can learn from this verse for sure, it can be used to speak to 'fake and true' Christians. A Christian is not a wicked and lazy servant. God is not a fool who grafts demons into heaven or makes the mistake of removing demons from heaven.

Num 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

In James 2:21-24; why was Abraham justified?

I can understand that many like to feel they have to do nothing in order to keep their salvation.

James 2:21-24 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

The faith Abraham had was a faith '''In'''' God. Faith has to always be in something. Many Christians teach faith as a stand alone verb. As though there is value in '''believing the unseen is seen''.

Abraham believed God was good and knew that this extremely good God must have had one 'hell' of a good reason for asking him to sacrifice his son. He had faith '''in''' God. We know God did have a good reason. It was a foreshadow of Jesus and basis for choosing Abraham's descendants as His bloodline. IE Abraham was a good man and approved of, put all His trust in, a good God.

Only a few in the OT had this kind of faith in God. I would say the prophets only and assume that that is why they were prophets. The average Joe (you and I) would ''not'' have this faith in God without the Holy Spirit.

Abraham's test in James 2, was a test of faith in God. Though I am pretty sure he was judged for a hatred of sin and passed a verse like Psalm 51:17 long before the test. IE He was a 'prophet' long before the 'test'. If he failed,he would still probably be en route to heaven. Truly impressive that he didn't. He will be in a position of authority in heaven for sure. A Christian today, is tested for sincere repentance of sin and then given a faith in Jesus being Lord Matt 16:16-17, 1 Cor 12:3. Today, the average Joe, can truly know God as the few prophets in the OT did.

I am truly confused though. What are you implying by quoting this passage? We must keep faith, faith on par with believing fairies exist (the ''unseen is seen''), to stay saved? Abraham was a 'great man of God' because he believed the ''unseen is seen'''?

 

[Brother-Paul]

I explained this before, "cast out and burned" means lost in this world controlled by Satan and perishing in this mortal life, for the "wages of sin is death". If you have had any houseplant, you would notice that some branches NATURALLY lose color, wither away and fall off, while other branches remain healthy. Back in the Torah, those Israelites' 40 years in the wilderness was a prophetic picture of any believer's spiritual journey. A lot of them longing to return to Egypt, but none of them did. Therefore, neither can a Christian be "unbaptized" into a heathen. That's a real thing promoted by Satan. True salvation can never be lost.

The wages is sin is death, that we are all sure to agree on brother.

But I cannot accept your suggestion when I listen to what Jesus tells us in John 15:1-17.

- Jesus is explaining in parable form, God is the root of the vine from which all goodness comes from.
- Jesus then explains, He is the vine which is fed by the goodness from God, describing His closeness, His abiding.
- Then He explains we are the branches of the vine, grafted into the vine (when born again from above)
- The connection to God is through Jesus
- The goodness of God comes through the vine to each born again soul
- Without Jesus we can do nothing, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus >>> We must listen to Him <<<

Why are we grafted into the vine
- to bear fruit and bring Glory to God.
- if we are not grafted into the vine, we are not born again from above, but Jesus is clear we are in Him so He can be in us and grow and bear fruit.
- There we can be 100% certain Jesus is telling us who are born again, grafted into the vine, of our connection to God through Him, and that we MUST abide in Him to bear fruit.

If we do not bear fruit we will wither, but that doesn't mean we are automatically cut out, cast out of the vine, no no, the vinedresser will prune those who are flourishing in fruit to bear more fruit. Depending how much we wither is whether or not the gardener, God the Father cuts us out.

Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God our Father.

How can anyone reject the words of Jesus over other beliefs?

Regarding scripture, I am open always to the scriptures, open always to the Spirit revealing something to me I may have missed. He certainly surprizes us from time to time!

When scriptures appear to conflict, I keep an open mind, scriptures never conflict, it is us humans who don't understand at that time. When we get different views, as we have and will on other items, I keep my mind and heart open. In this case I have not received enough from OSAS believes to convince my heart that that view is correct. Now it has been said, to not believe OSAS is dangerous, I would reply that to believe OSAS is very dangerous, more dangerous.

OSAS is not in the scriptures, Jesus' words are! Jesus words speak the Truth, He has all authority, how can anyone not accept Him at His Word?

Now if others had provided enough evidence from scripture, to make me think they have a strong point, then I would immediately say, there has to be another reason, we must pray and search the scriptures. But this is not the case.

I have accepted all scriptures raised on the topic, but it does not appear OSAS believers, have tried to explain what Jesus says in, John 15:1-17, that they believe it doesn't mean what he actually says, even though they are words of warning from our Lord himself. Born again believers, grafted into the vine, who wither from righteousness back to sin, can be, will be, says Jesus cast out, cut out of the connection with God.

I appreciate many comments made, God is Love and he wouldn't do such a thing! That is not what Jesus says, it is not what God through the scriptures says. If you are not born again of water and spirit you will not see, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven, Vengeance is mine says the Lord, etc, etc.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Scripture also tells us that when a person becomes a born -again believer that the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person and stays with them until the person is safe with Jesus Christ.

Greetings Sue,

This is true and reflected in John 15, we are grafted into the vine when we are born again from above, the Holy Spirit dwells in us because, all good ness comes from the root, through Jesus to the grafted in branch.

What Jesus is saying in John 15:1-17 is all about the born-again soul, who has repented, proclaimed their faith, give their life to Jesus, they are in Him and His Spirit is in them, ABIDING together. Jesus confirms all that in these scriptures, then He says,

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

If a person does not abide in the Vine, in Jesus, they are practicing sin, not practicing righteousness. They have returned to their sinful says, following sin and the world of sin, not following Jesus, not abiding in Jesus.

God is not to blame, He has done everything, it is up to us to ensure we ABIDE in Christ Jesus, so He can abide in us.

The only person to blame is the person. Jesus is very clear, his message in the parable is graphic so we get the message

So, thus it is said 'once saved always saved '. When the Holy Spirit indwells a person, it's the Holy Spirit who changes our desires. The person will have inner peace that hadn't been there before. A desire to please God. There will a desire to share Christ in some way

OSAS if false teaching, false preaching. Jesus confirms this in John 15

Shalom