Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[Brother-Paul]

You keep justifying yourself by repeatedly saying "Not works please",

That was more for @KingJ, I had though I had included his link name as here.

while you've totally ignored the real answer from Yeshua himself, which is the Promised Helper, right there in the next chapter.

Not at all Jonathan, I never bring the pudding out when the mail meal has not been digested.

You fail to realize that "abide in Jesus" could trap you in false doctrines and lead you to abide in false versions of Jesus, which there are many in these days;

Trap into a false doctrine, I think not my friend.

only the Holy Spirit can reveal the real Yeshua to you, the real Lord and Savior set up in the entire Old Testament. You are blind to see what's right there in the second half of Chapter 15, which is to "love one another" -

God is love, Amen.
But let us not forget the vengeance and His Wrath of God against sinners.

in your church group, to hold one another accountable, to advance as one body on the narrow path of righteousness, following the guide of the Holy Spirit.

I do not have a church group, you do not have a church group, you are misunderstanding the ekklesia.

The body of Christ, the born again from above souls, the called out ones, they are each a spiritual stone in the ekklesia; the group, congregation, assembly of born again from above believers is the church.

You don't go to church you go to be with other born again souls, and together the group of born again souls are the church, the ekklesia. Each group of born again from above believers, two, three or more are part of the whole ekklesia, the whole Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ.

The bottom line is, you've got a wrong definition of salvation, and totally misinterpreted John 15:1-8.

You are entitled to your opinion, Jonathan.

Listen to Jesus, ALL authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Him.

ALL having been born again from above, are grafted into the vine, Jesus was clearly talking of true believers. That part you seem to miss my friend.

Providing we ABIDE in Jesus, so that He can ABIDE in us, we need not worry. OSAS is not in the equation, that was if it was real anyway.

Shalom

 

[KingJ]

Well I have never made any claim even close to that.

Usually the non osas crowd isn't concerned about the faithful but rather those who were born again, but turned away for decades.

You are simply moving the goal posts.

 

[KingJ]

And how can you betray unless he was "one of them"?

No disciple was a born again Christian. There was no 'new covenant' before the cross.

 

[KingJ]

The vine and the branches, the abiding or not abiding, in His love or not in His love, hearts grown cold.

Brother, I have lost track of how many times I have asked you to explain how what you believe 'abiding' to be, is not a 'works based salvation'.

Eph 2:8-9 thoroughly debunks a non-OSAS view of every scripture alluding to works. As such, to make your non-OSAS argument you need to prove how 'abiding' is not works.

Last I recall, you said it was becuase works was after salvation. I replied with a 'it does not matter before or after, its still implying a works based salvation'.

Works are not bad. They are needed as justification for salvation. But not for salvation. Justification and salvation are apples and oranges.

'Works' cannot be mentioned in the same sentence as salvation. You are all just masking works with other words. ''Keep faith, abide, follow Jesus''. What exactly is 'keep faith, abide and follow Jesus' according to you? Prove to me it is not 'works' .

 

[joestue]

You are simply moving the goal posts.

Re read my reply.

No one is saying people who serve God are going to lose their salvation.(given that you must abide in Christ to serve him, you won't...) It's the people who harden their heart, stop serving God, and start sinning that are at risk of damnation, in my opinion.

Do you believe God will force you to repent in the future?

 

[KingJ]

and start sinning that are at risk of damnation, in my opinion.

Start sinning? We all sin. Christian, non-Christian. You believe you don't sin? Even Paul acknowledged his sin Rom 7:15.

Re read my reply.

No one is saying people who serve God are going to lose their salvation.(given that you must abide in Christ to serve him, you won't...) It's the people who harden their heart, stop serving God, and start sinning that are at risk of damnation, in my opinion.

You are moving the goal posts my friend.

Using your insertions:

Christian A serves God 'all out' for 50 years. Then hardens heart, loses faith, stops serving from 51 to 109. Dies an atheist who never wants to talk to God.
Christian B repents of their sins, serves God for around 1 minute or two, talks to Jesus and hangs on a cross for 4 hours.

To send Christian B to eternal bliss and Christian A to eternal hell is the very definition of a perversion of justice. Please explain to me how it is not?

Do you believe God will force you to repent in the future

God never forces anyone to repent.

He judges our repentance when we do repent. If it is at a depth of intent Jer 17:9-12, He gives us faith Rom 12:3, to believe Jesus is Lord 1 Cor 12:3 and He keeps us saved 1 Cor 1:8, 1 Cor 10:13.

Please see my thread here on what a Christian is and how you become one What is a Christian and how do you become one?

 

[joestue]

Christian A serves God 'all out' for 50 years. Then hardens heart, loses faith, stops serving from 51 to 109. Dies an atheist who never wants to talk to God.
Christian B repents of their sins, serves God for around 1 minute or two, talks to Jesus and hangs on a cross.

Do infants go to heaven without serving Jesus?

As for Christian A.. well they fell away, in your example it's fairly obvious it's absolutely not a perversion of justice.

I forget if you have given your opinion on this, but do Christians go to hell when they commit suicide? No one that I know in real life who is honest... Has an opinion. They leave it up to God! Because yes all Christians sin and probably will sin in the future. But they don't love it. They aren't corrupted in spirit. They didn't plan their suicide for for years because they meant to do it.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

And how can you betray unless he was "one of them"?

That’s the Judas element, who’s been with Yeshua, in charge of the money box, collecting some benefits from that, maybe, but he’s never one of them in his heart. How come that you can’t figure that out?

 

[KingJ]

Do infants go to heaven without serving Jesus?

God is impartial Acts 10:34 and not a fool Rom 16:27.

As such, children do not go to hell. As Jesus says Matt 19:4 'the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them'. But make no mistake, if Adam had to be tested by the devil, all mankind will.

Most scholars I have spoken to believe the millennium is the time that God will test children as Rev 20:3 says the devil will be released for a while at the end.

As for Christian A.. well they fell away, in your example it's fairly obvious it's absolutely not a perversion of justice.

I feel you have not meditated on it. Lets assume you are person A. You are fine with that. Eternal hell after multiple feats of faith and love for Jesus. Me, no feats, no acts of love, 4 hours of suffering on a cross for crimes I committed and then off into eternal bliss.

Either you do not understand eternity or you are simply not meditating on the example.

I forget if you have given your opinion on this, but do Christians go to hell when they commit suicide? No one that I know in real life who is honest... Has an opinion. They leave it up to God! Because yes all Christians sin and probably will sin in the future. But they don't love it. They aren't corrupted in spirit. They didn't plan their suicide for for years because they meant to do it.

No true Christian ever goes to hell. Very unlikely that a true Christian be able to complete a suicide attempt.

Deut 31:8 The Lord himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.
1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.

 

[Brad Huber]

That’s the Judas element, who’s been with Yeshua, in charge of the money box, collecting some benefits from that, maybe, but he’s never one of them in his heart. How come that you can’t figure that out?

Dont you see that you want to believe that? You dont think that doesnt influence your decision? Why not accept that its better that God makes the choices of who is "kept" at the wedding feast and who is not?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I do not lecture to you Jonathan, I am quoting a point you are missing, you say that is what you are doing in reply to me. You call it lecturing, Jonathan; I call it a discussion, replying to a comment.

Then I don't see this discussion going anywhere, you're stuck in square one by repeating the same doctrine over and over again. We're reading the same Scripture in John 15, I put it in the broad context and draw connection with other verses, you just use it as a so called proof text to deny a fundamental scriptural truth which you don't like.

I am thinking about Peter, I see no difference to what I have previously said. Peter was abiding in Jesus, He loved Jesus, the fact that he denied Jesus thrice doesn't change the fact he still loved Jesus. It appears you have a mind set, it appears you look too deep for what is on the surface. Unless we become like little children this is what happens

No, you're not. You don't see the character and pattern that Peter represents. He's a typical backsliding Christian who're fervent and passionate in ministry, who's got an answer to every question and a solution to every problem, but as soon as adversity strikes, they are disheartened and they retreat back to their old worldly lives.

Peter didn't just deny Yeshua three times, in John 21 he went back fishing with other disciples, did you know that? Yeshua personally showed up at the shore and performed the same big catch miracle that he performed when he first met Peter and called him into ministry, it was almost like a de javu; and then he asked him three times "do you love me" to restore him. And finally, it was the Holy Spirit that empowered him to preach Yeshua in public and confront with the authority which used to scare him to death. This is his season of valley and season of mountain, a true transformation, a spiritual journey that every Christian relates and experiences, and you fail to recognize that -miserably.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Why would I trust you Jonathan, my Trust is in the Lord.

Do you? You have a funny way of showing it. If you really trust the Lord, you wouldn't question the validy of our salvation, purchased with the precious blood of His only son that was shed on the cross.

Jesus is not absent, my friend, read the scriptures.

YOU read the scriptures. The Yeshua HaMashiach of Nazareth I know was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of virgin Mary, baptized at about age 30, crucified on the cross, buried in Joseph's tomb, resurrected on the third day and most importantly, ascended into heaven, seated at the right hand of God; when His church is built and complete, He shall return and rule the world. This is the only Lord and Savior I follow and worship, any other version is a false idol from Satan. He stated multiple times in the Farewell Discourse that he was about to DEPART from the disciples, and it is for our ADVANTAGE, the message is loud and clear, and you're just so blind to see it and so stubborn to accept it.

I've heard it all the time that "Jesus is in my heart", "Jesus co-pilots my life," "just give me Jesus," and the most dangerous one, "Jesus has already returned, it's the awakening of human consciousness." That is wicked deception from the New Age movement and denial of the Holy Spirit who's really dwelling in our hearts, while the Lord himself is in heaven, and very soon, perhaps within less than a decade, will physically return. His absence is both for our advantage and a test of out patience and allegiance.

SO LONG as we ABIDE in Him, believe in Him with all our heart, Trust in Him with all our heart, submit to Him in FAITH, the Holy Spirit connects with my spirit, in my heart and soul, we have communion together, it is only when his spirit joins our spirit, when we are born again from above, that the abiding in His love, as He abides in the Fathers love that our journey to Eternal Life begins. But we must remain in Him, if we don't our grafted in branch will lose the connection with the Holy Spirit, the Holy sap will reduce, [God gives us time when falling away to return], He prunes the branch with the best intentions, He doesn't want any to be lost. But the more we fall away, the more we fall into sin, the colder our heart gets, the branch withers until it has to be cut out of the vine. Who is to blame? Only the one who failed to bear fruit for the Father, because they failed to abide in the one who died for their sins.

He who abides in Him will always abide in Him, those are the true believers who bear fruit. No matter how small and how little of the fruit they bear, there're real improvement in their lives, and they are willing to be pruned by the Father who is the vinedresser, to accept the decluttering in their lives, having the distractions removed and having their focus on the mission, so they can become productive and bear MORE fruit; those who are "cut off" are the Judas element who hang around in the congregation for some worldly benefits, that include all the crowd who were OFFENDED by the message of eating His body and drinking His blood, they all turned away. Those are the ones being cut off, because they had never abided in Christ in the first place. Those are the ones who are playing an empty religion instead of cultivating an intimate relationship, and them Yeshua "never knew". It's the exact same message as "those who have will have more, those who don't have, the little they have will be taken away."

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Dont you see that you want to believe that? You dont think that doesnt influence your decision? Why not accept that its better that God makes the choices of who is "kept" at the wedding feast and who is not?

I could state the same on the entirety of this discussion about salvation, if it means going to New Jerusalem or whatever kind of utopia you picture in your head. Last time I checked, in Matt. 25, both the righteous and the wicked are uttered surprised at the final outcome, why not letting the Lord decide who goes to kingdom ruling with Christ? Instead of wasting our time by bickering with one another in the cyberspace?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

That was more for @KingJ, I had though I had included his link name as here.

Whoever it was for, a false doctrine is a false doctrine, a wrong message is a wrong message.

Not at all Jonathan, I never bring the pudding out when the mail meal has not been digested.

Except that WAS the main meal, the abide section was an analogy to help the disciples understand.

Trap into a false doctrine, I think not my friend.

Yes you do. As long as you take John 15:1-8 out of the context and refuse to discuss the context, you're trapped in a false doctrine.

I do not have a church group, you do not have a church group, you are misunderstanding the ekklesia.

The body of Christ, the born again from above souls, the called out ones, they are each a spiritual stone in the ekklesia; the group, congregation, assembly of born again from above believers is the church.

You don't go to church you go to be with other born again souls, and together the group of born again souls are the church, the ekklesia. Each group of born again from above believers, two, three or more are part of the whole ekklesia, the whole Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ.

Those "two, three or more" ARE your ekklesia. Whatever your think "ekklesia" means, it must be translated in your real life. First half of John 15 tells me that VERTICALLY I must abide in Yeshua, the second half of John 15 tells me that HORIZONTALLY I must abide in his body, which is the ekklesia. I called you out for "lecturing" due to the fact that you threw the book at me by slapping the dictionary defition of this word on my face, while you don't see the its disconnection with real life. If you can't abide in "part of the whole ekklesia", how can you abide in the whole ekklesia?

You are entitled to your opinion, Jonathan.

Listen to Jesus, ALL authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Him.

ALL having been born again from above, are grafted into the vine, Jesus was clearly talking of true believers. That part you seem to miss my friend.

Providing we ABIDE in Jesus, so that He can ABIDE in us, we need not worry. OSAS is not in the equation, that was if it was real anyway.

Shalom

I do listen to Yeshua, it is the honor and privilege of my life to know him, worship him and follow him. I listen to His truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, for He IS the truth, instead of your misconstrued partial truth.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Do infants go to heaven without serving Jesus?

As for Christian A.. well they fell away, in your example it's fairly obvious it's absolutely not a perversion of justice.

I forget if you have given your opinion on this, but do Christians go to hell when they commit suicide? No one that I know in real life who is honest... Has an opinion. They leave it up to God! Because yes all Christians sin and probably will sin in the future. But they don't love it. They aren't corrupted in spirit. They didn't plan their suicide for for years because they meant to do it.

How about we render what is God's to God? How about letting God - whose throne is heaven - decide whether they go to heaven or not, instead of wild, disoriented and endless speculations? How about we weep with those who weep and mourn with those who mourn, when an infant actually passes away, instead of jumping onto our own talking points and narratives like a kneejerk reaction before their body gets cold? How about we just yield to God who gives life and takes away, hoping that infant finally rests in peace and comfort out of this sinful and fallen world that deprived them of their life?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Yet you preach, 'once saved always saved', which is not in the scriptures?

John 8:35. Me and joestue have had a debate on that. See for it and go figure.

 

[joestue]

How about we render what is God's to God? How about letting God - whose throne is heaven - decide whether they go to heaven or not, instead of wild, disoriented and endless speculations?

Is that not what I said? I said no one I know in real life who is honest, has an opinion on where Christians who suicide go.

And why don't you render what is God's domain: the judgement of all mankind. If some lose their salvation what is that to you?

Who goes to heaven or hell is not my business other than myself.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Is that not what I said? I said no one I know in real life who is honest, has an opinion on where Christians who suicide go.

And why don't you render what is God's domain: the judgement of all mankind. If some lose their salvation what is that to you?

Who goes to heaven or hell is not my business other than myself.

But God did say that You shall not murder, which definitely includes suicide; if you think it doesn't, then how about "cowards" being precluded from the New Jerusalem? It's in Rev. 21.

 

[PloughBoy]

Is that not what I said? I said no one I know in real life who is honest, has an opinion on where Christians who suicide go.

And why don't you render what is God's domain: the judgement of all mankind. If some lose their salvation what is that to you?

Who goes to heaven or hell is not my business other than myself.

King James Bible
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

So we must not call The Spirit of GOD a Liar.


Ephesians 4:30
"And Do Not Grieve The Holy Spirit of God, in whom You Were SEALED For The Day Of Redemption." [With lies!]

Claiming That he cannot save, to The utmost!

New King James Version
"Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

PloughBoy

 

[joestue]

But God did say that You shall not murder, which definitely includes suicide; if you think it doesn't, then how about "cowards" being precluded from the New Jerusalem? It's in Rev. 21.

If you die while sinning, do you go to hell?