Brother, I have lost track of how many times I have asked you to explain how what you believe 'abiding' to be, is not a 'works based salvation'.
Eph 2:8-9
thoroughly debunks a non-OSAS view of every scripture alluding to works. As such, to make your non-OSAS argument you need to prove how 'abiding' is not works.
Last I recall, you said it was becuase works was after salvation. I replied with a 'it does not matter before or after, its still implying a works based salvation'.
Works are not bad. They are needed as justification for salvation. But not for salvation. Justification and salvation are apples and oranges.
'Works' cannot be mentioned in the same sentence as salvation. You are all just masking works with other words. ''Keep faith, abide, follow Jesus''. What exactly is 'keep faith, abide and follow Jesus' according to you? Prove to me it is not 'works'
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You're starting with a false premise. The "Works based salvation" argument is a Reformation teaching, not a Biblical one. It stems from Martin Luther's "Faith Alone" doctrine. Christians are told to keep Christ's commands. So, there are things we must do. As has been mentioned, you're taking Scripture out of context. You said,
"Eph 2:8-9
thoroughly debunks a non-OSAS view of every scripture alluding to works. As such, to make your non-OSAS argument you need to prove how 'abiding' is not works."
No, it doesn't. Because when we read it in context, we find that it is speaking of the Mosaic Law. Essentially, "not of works" is saying not of the Mosaic Law. That becomes crystal clear from the context.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9
Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eph 2:8–10.
So, why is it that they are not saved by works? Paul explains.
11 Wherefore remember,
that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and
hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eph 2:11–17.
Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition. Here Paul is referencing an actual wall in the temple that separated Jews and Gentiles. There was a wall on the temple grounds that the Gentiles could not pass. The Jews on the other hand could, essentially getting closer to God. Christ broke down that wall. Now Jew and Gentile had equal access. He continues to explain that Christ abolished "the law of commandments contained in ordinances". That is the Mosaic Law. The reason Gentiles aren't saved by works is because Christ had abolished the works of the Law.
The problem is that people proof text Eph 2:9 and give works their own definition and then claim the Bible says one doesn't have any works to do. Nothing could father from the truth. If we look at virtually all of Paul's statement on works, we'll find some reference to the Mosaic Law. Take Galatians 4 for instance.
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you,
Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit,
are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you,
doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ga 3:1–5.
This is why a study of history is useful. If we study the events of the time, we'll find that Paul had a big problem during his ministry. The problem was that of the Judaizers. These were men who came from the Jerusalem church, and we are going behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to faith they also had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses.
And
certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 15:1–2.
This was such an issue that they determined that Paul and Barnabus should go to Jerusalem and inquire of the other apostles. It was such an issue that the Holy Spirit had Paul go to Jerusalem.
Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ga 2:1–2.
We can see this must have been quite a problem is God had the Holy Spirit involved. The rest of the account can be read in Acts 15.
So, When Paul says they are not saved by works, he is not saying anything one does. He is specifically addressing this idea that the Gentiles had to keep the Law of Moses. This passage has wrongly been used for hundreds of years to mislead Christians into thinking that there is nothing for them to do regarding salvation. I've actually heard Christians say if you try to do works you are working against God. This is wrong at every level. People grab this passage and claim Paul is saying that good works aren't necessary. However, it seems they don't pay attention to another statement Paul made.
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 2:5–9.
Paul says that God will render to every man "According to his works". What are the two rewards? To those who do good, eternal life. To those who do evil, indignation and wrath. Now, there's a crystal-clear statement that doing good works leads to eternal life. Unless you can figure out how this passage isn't saying that your interpretation of Ephesians 2:9 comes into question. And, as we see the context of that passage shows that interpretation is incorrect.
