Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[Jonathan_Gale]

The gospel is eternal hell verse eternal heaven. You are 1/1000 people that do not believe in eternal hell when every translation speaks to it.

There is a lot of scripture to consider on this. But if I cannot even convince you of an annihilationist belief being evil, I have not got much hope.

I'm with you on OSAS, but I'm with him on the kingdom. Whether hell is eternal or not depends on which "hell" you're referring to - Gehenna, Hades or the Lake of Fire? These are vastly different. Gehenna is a real dumping ground outside of Jerusalem where dead people and animals are being burned, it was the most terrifying place at the time in most Jewish people's mind; Hades is the grave, also known as "underneath the earth", named after Zeus's brother who was in charge and at large, that's where most people got the idea that Satan is down there torturing sinners for eternity; Lake of Fire is the real one that's ETERNAL, Satan along with all the evil spirits will be thrown in there and separated from God forever, therefore it's called the "second death". At that point the physical body has already returned to dust, it can't die again, what does die is the unclean spirit that once possessed that unrepentent sinner's body. So the point is, "hell" is a very confusing unbrella term, you gotta avoid using that and be a little bit more specific.

 

[KingJ]

I'm with you on OSAS, but I'm with him on the kingdom. Whether hell is eternal or not depends on which "hell" you're referring to - Gehenna, Hades or the Lake of Fire? These are vastly different. Gehenna is a real dumping ground outside of Jerusalem where dead people and animals are being burned, it was the most terrifying place at the time in most Jewish people's mind; Hades is the grave, also known as "underneath the earth", named after Zeus's brother who was in charge and at large, that's where most people got the idea that Satan is down there torturing sinners for eternity; Lake of Fire is the real one that's ETERNAL, Satan along with all the evil spirits will be thrown in there and separated from God forever, therefore it's called the "second death". At that point the physical body has already returned to dust, it can't die again, what does die is the unclean spirit that once possessed that unrepentent sinner's body. So the point is, "hell" is a very confusing unbrella term, you gotta avoid using that and be a little bit more specific.

I agree with this, outside of the devil torturing of course.

Butch believes that when all are thrown into the lake of fire they will be destroyed.

I say 'hell' because that is a word we use to describe a place of torment. Scripture speaks to Gehenna, Sheol, Hades and lake of fire. All these are types of 'hell'.

 

[KingJ]

Because they used the same Bible as Jesus and the apostles. Here is Isaiah 9:6 from the Septuagint, the Bible that Jesus, the apostles, and early church used.

because a child was born for us,
a son also given to us,
whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder,
and he is named Messenger of Great Counsel,
for I will bring peace upon the rulers,
peace and health to him.
7(6) His sovereignty is great,
and his peace has no boundary
upon the throne of Dauid and his kingdom,
to make it prosper and to uphold it
with righteousness and with judgment
from this time onward and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord Sabaoth will do these things.

I did some Googling on this.

''The Dead Sea Scrolls containing Isaiah gives us the translation that the KJV does as well as the 1917 Jewish Publication of the Jewish Bible.''

''The Greek LXX of Isaiah 9:6 is the best translation given in Greek and then into English''

''John Qwen seemed to have believed the LXX was reversed engineered'' ''The LXX is off in many Scriptures''

It seems the translation to English was corrupted terribly. Jesus did not use the English Septuagint. I will work on a trinity thread.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I agree with this, outside of the devil torturing of course.

Butch believes that when all are thrown into the lake of fire they will be destroyed.

I say 'hell' because that is a word we use to describe a place of torment. Scripture speaks to Gehenna, Sheol, Hades and lake of fire. All these are types of 'hell'.

There is no physical torture beyond mortal death. That "torture" is for the evil spirits, which most people have never taken into consideration. Contrary to conventional gnostic philosophy, one's individual identity is not the "soul" contained in the prison of the body. Identity comes from spirit. It could be the Holy Spirit, but it could also be one or more evil spirits. All false religions, all kinds of "isms" are the manifestation of such spirits through information, they can't be destroyed, and they can't be tolerated in heaven, their names are not on the Book of Life, therefore they go down to the Lake of Fire being "tortured" forever. This torture is far beyond whips and chains, it's on another level.

 

[Butch5]

I did some Googling on this.

''The Dead Sea Scrolls containing Isaiah gives us the translation that the KJV does as well as the 1917 Jewish Publication of the Jewish Bible.''

''The Greek LXX of Isaiah 9:6 is the best translation given in Greek and then into English''

''John Qwen seemed to have believed the LXX was reversed engineered'' ''The LXX is off in many Scriptures''

It seems the translation to English was corrupted terribly. Jesus did not use the English Septuagint. I will work on a trinity thread.

Actually, my friend, you have that backwards. It is the Masoretic text that is off. I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but, if you study Christian history rather than Google, you'll find that the Septuagint was the accepted text of both the Jews, from about 300 BC. forward and the early Christians. What happened is that the early Christians began to use it so effectively to prove that Jesus is the Christ that the unbelieving Jews were forced to reject it. Even though it had been their accepted Scriptures (in Greek speaking areas). By the time of the early church, no one had the original texts anymore. What they didn't realize is that the Septuagint had come from a different text family than the Masoretic text. In the 400's Jerome was commissioned by the Pope to make a translation into the Latin language. It was understood that he would use the Septuagint. However, the unbelieving Jews had been claiming that the Septuagint was corrupted, and they had the original writings, they didn't. This constant claim bothered Jerome and for some reason he chose to believe the unbelieving Jews rather than the church. As such, his Latin translation came from the text the Jews had and not the Septuagint. There was a big stink about it, but as is often the case, history intervened, the empire fell, and the controversy waned. People were more concerned with staying alive. Jerome's translation became known as the Latin Vulgate and became the accepted translation of the Catholic Church.

However, it's not the least bit difficult to see which Jesus and the apostles used.


Below are several New Testament quotes, I have given the corresponding verses in the Old Testament, from both the Masoretic text which is the text used in almost all of the current English Bibles, and the Septuagint or the LXX, which is the Greek text used in the time of Christ. Notice how the Masoretic text does not follow the New Testament quotes as the Septuagint does. This is just a few, there are a lot more.

New Testament
Hebrews 1:6 ( KJV ) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Deuteronomy 32:43

Masoretic text
Deuteronomy 32:43 ( KJV ) 43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Where are the words, "And let all the angels of God worship him"?

Septuagint
Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

New Testament
Hebrews 10:5 ( KJV ) 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Psalm 40:6

Masoretic text
Psalms 40:6 ( KJV ) 6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Where are the words, " but a body hast thou prepared me:"? This is an important part to leave out since it speaks of the incarnation of Christ.

Septuagint
Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.

New Testament
1 Peter 4:18 ( KJV ) 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Peter quotes Proverbs 11:31

Masoretic text
Proverbs 11:31 ( KJV ) 31Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

Septuagint
Proverbs 11:31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

New Testament
Matthew 3:3 ( KJV ) 3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Here Matthew quotes Isaiah 40:3

Masoretic text
Isaiah 40:3 ( KJV ) 3The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Septuagint
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God.

New Testament
James 4:6 ( KJV ) 6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Here James quotes Proverbs 3:34

Masoretic text
Proverbs 3:34 ( KJV ) 34Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Septuagint
Proverbs 3:34 The Lord resists the proud; but he gives grace to the humble.

New Testament
Matthew 15:7-9 ( KJV ) 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Here Jesus quotes from Isaiah 29:13

Masoretic text
Isaiah 29:13 ( KJV ) 13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Septuagint,
Isaiah 29:13 And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.

New Testament
Matthew 21:16 ( KJV ) 16And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Masoretic text
Psalms 8:2 ( KJV ) 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Septuagint,
Psalms 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down the enemy and avenger.

New Testament
Hebrews 1:6 ( KJV ) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Deuteronomy 32:43

Masoretic text
Deuteronomy 32:43 ( KJV ) 43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Where are the words, "And let all the angels of God worship him"?

Septuagint
Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

New Testament
Hebrews 10:5 ( KJV ) 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Psalm 40:6

Masoretic text
Psalms 40:6 ( KJV ) 6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Where are the words, " but a body hast thou prepared me:"? This is an important part to leave out since it speaks of the incarnation of Christ.

Septuagint
Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.

New Testament
1 Peter 4:18 ( KJV ) 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Peter quotes Proverbs 11:31

Masoretic text
Proverbs 11:31 ( KJV ) 31Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

Septuagint
Proverbs 11:31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

New Testament
Matthew 3:3 ( KJV ) 3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Here Mtthew quotes Isaiah 40:3

Masoretic text
Isaiah 40:3 ( KJV ) 3The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Septuagint
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God.

New Testament
James 4:6 ( KJV ) 6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Here James quotes Proverbs 3:34

Masoretic text
Proverbs 3:34 ( KJV ) 34Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Septuagint
Proveerbs 3:34 The Lord resists the proud; but he gives grace to the humble.

New Testament
Matthew 15:7-9 ( KJV ) 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Here Jesus quotes from Isaiah 29:13

Masoretic text
Isaiah 29:13 ( KJV ) 13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Septuagint,
Isaiah 29:13 And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.

New Testament
Matthew 21:16 ( KJV ) 16And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Masoretic text
Psalms 8:2 ( KJV ) 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Septuagint,
Psalms 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down the enemy and avenger.

This should make it clear they are quoting from the Septuagint and not the Masoretic text we have .

 

[KingJ]

Scripture does not support once saved always saved.

This goes back to my thread "points to Ponder pt4" . One of those i did not cover. How Christians do not follow the bible.

In this particular case, Judas Iscariot one of the 12, along with the other 12 were sent out to the various towns. Upon returning they were all excited about everything that they had done. In the scripture itself it lists the names of the Apostles that were sent out to these towns and it states Judas is full name when it says the list, Judas Iscariot.

Jesus tells the apostles, to Rejoice because their names are written in heaven.

This one particular line seems to be forgotten whenever anyone is talking about Judas Iscariot, because they all jump to the conclusion that he was created only to go to hell. As if God creates people to go to hell.

But as scripture States it was later in the relationship with Jesus when Satan entered Judas. After which Judas betrayed Jesus and then killed himself.

It is because of these passages I know that the once saved always saved philosophy is false

@Bill

I agree with your reasoning and point made on Judas. Calvinists would read into ''names written in heaven'' and teach that God cherry picked them for heaven and Judas for hell.

But, this is a very weak argument to raise as opposition to OSAS.

OSAS stands for once saved always saved. Being saved is something that can only happen after the cross.

To understand why OSAS is true requires one to properly grasp the 'salvation experience'. Many don't.

I want to be crystal clear. Many who don't believe in OSAS are still very good people, I don't for one second doubt their love for Jesus. I take issue only with the fact that they don't realize the damage they do when preaching this message.

__________________________________________________

Before we discuss OSAS vs non-OSAS, we need to agree on the following two items:

1. It is of 'PARAMOUNT' importance that we agree and properly understand what it takes to become a Christian. Please read this OP here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

2. Understand that Christians are ambassadors for God 2 Cor 5:20. We are 'NOT' ambassadors of our own pious intellect and qualifications. We need to always be mindful of what the unsaved are hearing from our lips / typed words and cross question our belief.

 

[Charlie24]

@Bill

I agree with your reasoning and point made on Judas. Calvinists would read into ''names written in heaven'' and teach that God cherry picked them for heaven and Judas for hell.

But, this is a very weak argument to raise as opposition to OSAS.

OSAS stands for once saved always saved. Being saved is something that can only happen after the cross.

To understand why OSAS is true requires one to properly grasp the 'salvation experience'. Many don't.

I want to be crystal clear. Many who don't believe in OSAS are still very good people, I don't for one second doubt their love for Jesus. I take issue only with the fact that they don't realize the damage they do when preaching this message.

__________________________________________________

Before we discuss OSAS vs non-OSAS, we need to agree on the following two items:

1. It is of 'PARAMOUNT' importance that we agree and properly understand what it takes to become a Christian. Please read this OP here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

2. Understand that Christians are ambassadors for God 2 Cor 5:20. We are 'NOT' ambassadors of our own pious intellect and qualifications. We need to always be mindful of what the unsaved are hearing from our lips / typed words and cross question our belief.

I know OSAS is a hot topic of debate among believers, And many folks are just tired of hearing it. Being new here I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth. Not trying to add further contention among the Brethren, just making my stand known as any born-again believer would do.

OSAS came from Calvinism. John Calvin said that man has no free will and God chooses who He wants to be saved, man has no choice. So the end result is that man cannot lose his salvation because he didn't choose God, God chose him. There's some serious problems with this line of thinking that is contrary to Scripture.

Here we see that the righteous can indeed become unrighteous and die in his sins.

Ezek. 18:24

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

All of us were saved by the Grace of God by repenting of our sins through faith in the finished work of Christ. That faith can be lost along the way. We are exhorted constantly in Scripture to support one another in the faith.

Here we see a condition on our salvation "to keep the faith."

Heb. 3:13-14

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

This verse unequivocally tells us that we must hold on to the faith to the end to be saved.

So I come to the conclusion that OSAS is true if one does not lose the faith.

 

[Sue D.]

Regarding OSAS -- once the Holy Spirit has come to indwell a person at the time of salvation, He won't ever leave us. Look at Ephesians 1: 13 - 14. "In Him you also trusted , after you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation;in whom also ,having believed , you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the Redemption of the purchased possession , to the praise of His glory."
When the Holy Spirit has come to indwell our inner desires will change. If a person continues to act in sinful ways , then a loving caring person could take time tonget to know him and show him from Bible where he needs to improve and possibly lead him to Jesus Christ as his personal Savior.

 

[Butch5]

Regarding OSAS -- once the Holy Spirit has come to indwell a person at the time of salvation, He won't ever leave us. Look at Ephesians 1: 13 - 14. "In Him you also trusted , after you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation;in whom also ,having believed , you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the Redemption of the purchased possession , to the praise of His glory."
When the Holy Spirit has come to indwell our inner desires will change. If a person continues to act in sinful ways , then a loving caring person could take time tonget to know him and show him from Bible where he needs to improve and possibly lead him to Jesus Christ as his personal Savior.

There's nothing in that passage that incates the spirit will never depart.

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5. The part of being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise...the guarantee of our inheritance until the Redemption of the purchased possession.

Which means the the Holy Spirit will stay with the believer until the believer is safe with Jesus christ.
Eternal security thus OSAS.

 

[Curtis]

Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5. The part of being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise...the guarantee of our inheritance until the Redemption of the purchased possession.

Which means the the Holy Spirit will stay with the believer until the believer is safe with Jesus christ.
Eternal security thus OSAS.

Actually, that's not what it's saying. A seal simply is evidence that something hasn't been tampered with. A seal is expected to be broken. The word guarantee doesn't mean something is certain. The word means a down-payment. The Holy Breath is a down-payment on the inheritance that will be received when Christ returns provided the believer remains faithful.

 

[Bill]

Regarding OSAS -- once the Holy Spirit has come to indwell a person at the time of salvation, He won't ever leave us. Look at Ephesians 1: 13 - 14. "In Him you also trusted , after you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation;in whom also ,having believed , you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the Redemption of the purchased possession , to the praise of His glory."
When the Holy Spirit has come to indwell our inner desires will change. If a person continues to act in sinful ways , then a loving caring person could take time tonget to know him and show him from Bible where he needs to improve and possibly lead him to Jesus Christ as his personal Savior.

I'm not responding to your message here, I'm responded to you personally Sue. It's really good to see you again. I've been praying for you for a long time I felt that you have been unwell

 

[Bill]

Once saved always saved is a false teaching.

the only way that could possibly work would be that that person would have to be in a state of grace 24/7. I'm sure there are a handful of Souls that are that way, and I have been blessed to know a few people like that.

But the scripture does not support once saved always saved, in fact people like Paul talk about running the race to the end. If a person is once saved always saved why would they even bother to race what would be the point of it. If it doesn't matter what a person does after they accept Jesus as Lord, then they can just sin away create all sorts of Havoc. Might as well go join the Democratic party for that matter they're right up that same alleyway. Because there's a number of them that would call themselves Christians and they go to church and all sorts of things and yet they're pro-abortion the pro euthanasia, they're Pro gay and they're all for it. They are all for all manner of sin, when it comes to holy matrimony.

I have spoken to the Lord on the subject of the homosexual crowd or the alphabet community. And the Lord is very staunch on the subject of the breaking of vows, and the lessening of what he made holy for one man and one woman.

You know that in the scripture, it is very important to pay attention to little details. As an example Jesus told the Pharisees in the scribes after casting a demon out that the devil cannot cast himself out. This is an extremely important statement, and it is also proof of why the once saved always saved is not a real teaching. Because of two factors. In Scripture you have a man coming to the king saying but Lord I cast out demons in your name I healed people in your name and the King saying away from me I never knew you.

What is very important to note, is that the Man cast out demons. The man that cast out demons cannot do that without the Lord being there. Just like Judas he could not cast out the demons unless he was in the Lord. I sometimes think that this particular example that Jesus talks about this man coming before the king is actually Judas coming before God. Because this is the very same thing that Judas did as well cast out demons and healed people. And the fact that in the scripture it states clearly who was doing it of the Apostles and the fact that Jesus stated that their names are written in heaven.

In those days when Judas was going around to the town's casting out demons and healing people he may not have understood who Jesus really was but Jesus gave him the authority to do that anyways. And Jesus stated that his name was written in heaven. But remember in the Scripture it states that Satan entered Judas later. In the Book of John especially it states that when Judas dipped his bread into the cup at the same time with Jesus that Satan entered Judas.

We can clearly see the progression of a man who was with the Lord in the beginning with his name written in heaven then as time goes on, changes is tempted and opens the door for Satan to enter him.

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- years ago there was the Tylenol scare. Since then many products have a seal that has to be broken in order to use it. Ketchup bottles for one. And that is to guarantee the safety of the product for use. I've been looking for the passage in book of Esther 8: 8. " For whatever Is written in the king's name and sealed with the king's signet ring no one can revoke."

And it's Holy Spirit ..not breath.

 

[Bill]

Actually, that's not what it's saying. A seal simply is evidence that something hasn't been tampered with. A seal is expected to be broken. The word guarantee doesn't mean something is certain. The word means a down-payment. The Holy Breath is a down-payment on the inheritance that will be received when Christ returns provided the believer remains faithful.

The seals of God have many different meanings it all depends on how it's being used. For instance the Seal of God on the 144,000, is the protection of God.

In my spiritual work, I seal things often with the Seal of God. And it's all sorts of things, not just people but a lot of different things

Just a quick example. There's an exorcist priest, who has made a podcast to tell his experiences. And they're all very dark stories. I was invited to listen to them, and the very first thing I noticed right off the bat was the story was not introduced with a blessing. Weather stories are real or fictitious and then go down or very dark path need to have the blessing of God at the beginning and a blessing of God at the end it creates a seal so that the darkness cannot adhere itself to that story.

So I sealed it all of them and I made it so that anyone that listens to them will not be affected because the darkness now cannot adhere itself to those type of stories.

You see if you have a story that is really evil, the darkness is actually attracted to that and it will affect people who listen to it. That is if it doesn't have the Seal of God on it in the first place. I said a spiritual seal on it I gave it the blessing of the most high and in Jesus name sealed them all.

 

[Sue D.]

I'm not responding to your message here, I'm responded to you personally Sue. It's really good to see you again. I've been praying for you for a long time I felt that you have been unwell

I'm not using a desk top computer but a hand-held thing. If I was on a desk top I'd know how to access the private conversation area. I had been down sick foe a while. But I've just not been on here foe a while. I've got Bible study this evening and have to get ready for that. I appreciate your praying for me.

 

[Bill]

Regarding OSAS -- once the Holy Spirit has come to indwell a person at the time of salvation, He won't ever leave us. Look at Ephesians 1: 13 - 14. "In Him you also trusted , after you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation;in whom also ,having believed , you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the Redemption of the purchased possession , to the praise of His glory."
When the Holy Spirit has come to indwell our inner desires will change. If a person continues to act in sinful ways , then a loving caring person could take time tonget to know him and show him from Bible where he needs to improve and possibly lead him to Jesus Christ as his personal Savior.

I think the understanding should be that God will not leave us but that doesn't stop us from leaving God. It is the Covenant between God and us.

God will certainly never break his end of the Covenant, but we on the other hand it depends on what we do

 

[Bill]

I'm not using a desk top computer but a hand-held thing. If I was on a desk top I'd know how to access the private conversation area. I had been down sick foe a while. But I've just not been on here foe a while. I've got Bible study this evening and have to get ready for that. I appreciate your praying for me.

I am also using a handheld device. And I'm sorry if I made it public versus private I was just really happy to see you back

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 -- years ago there was the Tylenol scare. Since then many products have a seal that has to be broken in order to use it. Ketchup bottles for one. And that is to guarantee the safety of the product for use. I've been looking for the passage in book of Esther 8: 8. " For whatever Is written in the king's name and sealed with the king's signet ring no one can revoke."

And it's Holy Spirit ..not breath.

The point is, a seal can be broken.

Actually, pneuma means wind or breath. When translated spirit it is a figure of speech. Holy wonders or breath is the accurate translation.