Once saved can we lose our salvation??

[Stickz]

Hello, brakelite

Peace be unto you

Your post is definitely relative to the discussion. It's interesting ( to me, anyway ) because I have been looking at the entire story of Moses as a foreshadowing of the entire salvation process. I've been planning to write it up in my blog but just haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

[Brighthouse]

Good Morning my brothers and sisters, When I awoke today,for those who believe in OSAS, I have just one question. Whatever you answer I will understand truly how you believe. ready?? Here is my question to you who believe in this. You who say you are saved,does that to you make you saved?? No matter what we do or do not?

 

[RJ]

Good Morning my brothers and sisters, When I awoke today,for those who believe in OSAS, I have just one question. Whatever you answer I will understand truly how you believe. ready?? Here is my question to you who believe in this. You who say you are saved,does that to you make you saved?? No matter what we do or do not?

Dear Brother'

I am not too sure if I follow you but here goes:

Are you saying that no one truly knows if they are saved or not?
-or-
Are you saying that you don't know for sure if your saved?

If you stuggle or are unsure of your faith, I am sorry for that but, though I don't fully understand it....I don't struggle....I guess I am blessed to have more than a portion of faith given to me.

I can't explain it but I am human, not perfect and therefore will never have perfect faith in this life but, thanks to God, I have enough that my doubting does not over come my faith.

It must be that it is more often than not easy for me to believe what God says about these things...here are some examples :

You can know for certain that you are saved!!! I say this confidently because God knows whether or not you are His Child. Any uncertainties which you may have concerning your salvation does not change God’s certainty of your salvation. If you are God’s Child, then He has promised to tell you that you are saved... “The Spirit itself BEARETH WITNESS with our spirit, that we are the children of God” (Romans 8:16). When you became a believer, the Godhead moved into your heart—i.e., God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit came into your soul to live forever. The Godhead lives within our body in the Person of God, the Holy Spirit. It is God’s very Spirit that testifies to our own spirit that we are a Child of God. What a wonderful blessing!!!

Here is something that that help me understand my salvation and, when I first read this simple verse, my heart fluttered because I knew it was me:

A. 2 Corinthians 5:16-20

New International Version (NIV)


So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

B. 2 Corinthians 5:16-20

The Message (MSG)

Because of this decision we don't evaluate people by what they have or how they look. We looked at the Messiah that way once and got it all wrong, as you know. We certainly don't look at him that way anymore. Now we look inside, and what we see is that anyone united with the Messiah gets a fresh start, is created new. The old life is gone; a new life burgeons! Look at it! All this comes from the God who settled the relationship between us and him, and then called us to settle our relationships with each other. God put the world square with himself through the Messiah, giving the world a fresh start by offering forgiveness of sins. God has given us the task of telling everyone what he is doing. We're Christ's representatives. God uses us to persuade men and women to drop their differences and enter into God's work of making things right between them.

C. Here is a verse from "Amazing Grace" that I often quote that explains my faith as well:

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

This time was like a great upwelling in me at this time in my life, of joy, and thirsting for the word! I am fortunate to remember it well and I often go back to that time in my life to fortify my faith!

It is because of the things and many more in scripture, that I believe God when he says that he will never forsake me or leave from inside me and, therefore why OSAS is easy for me.

For me, and I realize that many disagree but, for me, it is a matter of not working so hard to perform for God and keep myself righteous in his eyes. No, it has been a journey to understand that my righteousness does not come from me but from he who is inside me and that my work is to allow him to produce his fruits through mand when I fail and I am unworthy in this endeavor, I pick myself up and continue and know these transgressions have already been forgiven!

I hope I had answered your question!

 

[Brighthouse]

ok I have no doubt about my faith,or anyone else. I just hold to this fact about my own faith is all. Since I say I believe,then I should have the proof of what I say is all.I do not speak about anyone faith,that is between the Lord and themselves. But for me and my faith,I believe that if one holds to the belief of Jesus Christ,then one must strive daily to take on as much of his nature,as we would our very own father on earth is all I am saying.It is not about doubt,it is about how we act as we say we believe. blessing For what?? faith without works is dead.James 2:26

 

[RJ]

ok I have no doubt about my faith,or anyone else. I just hold to this fact about my own faith is all. Since I say I believe,then I should have the proof of what I say is all.I do not speak about anyone faith,that is between the Lord and themselves. But for me and my faith,I believe that if one holds to the belief of Jesus Christ,then one must strive daily to take on as much of his nature,as we would our very own father on earth is all I am saying.It is not about doubt,it is about how we act as we say we believe. blessing For what?? faith without works is dead.James 2:26

Then all I can say is that we are more alike than not, Except for one thing I beleive, as I have said many times, yes it requires works but, not our works but his who lives in us!

 

[David777]

Osas?

I do enjoy reading the posts.

There seems to be a hole in the arguments though.

We as Christians are required to live a spiritual life in Jesus Christ.

A life of forgiveness, kindness, compassion, and love.

If we live a Christian life in the flesh how could we be saved.

Is this what repentance is really about, a life full of the Holy Spirit.

We must follow Jesus through trial and tribulation and not
love the world.

The doctrine of Godliness, is the doctrine that Paul taught
so strongly. Why?

I do think the parable of the seed sown in different soils
sums up the answer to this question.

 

[RJ]

I do enjoy reading the posts.

There seems to be a hole in the arguments though.

We as Christians are required to live a spiritual life in Jesus Christ.

A life of forgiveness, kindness, compassion, and love.

If we live a Christian life in the flesh how could we be saved.

Is this what repentance is really about, a life full of the Holy Spirit.

We must follow Jesus through trial and tribulation and not
love the world.

The doctrine of Godliness, is the doctrine that Paul taught
so strongly. Why?

I do think the parable of the seed sown in different soils
sums up the answer to this question.

That is right.

Faith with out works is dead.

Not our works but the Holy Spirit in us.

These are not works from the flesh but from the Spirit.

So, I see this as the true meaning:

Faith with out spiritual works is dead!

The interseting thing about bearing Gods fruit in this life, though it is fruit of the spirit, it is often manifested through the physical ( flesh)...us.

Amen

 

[brakelite]

That is right.

Faith with out works is dead.

Not our works but the Holy Spirit in us.

These are not works from the flesh but from the Spirit.

So, I see this as the true meaning:

Faith with out spiritual works is dead!

Amen

I find it deeply important that Jesus said that our salvation depended upon our giving as little as a glass of water to a thirsty stranger.

 

[David777]

Good answer RJ.

Of course faith without the spiritual life is death.

God will destroy all flesh and its filthy works.

Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, now that is
true theology. How can a person fall away
if that person follows the guidance of the
Holy Spirit, not possible.

Falling away is only possible if a person does
not continue in there faith in Jesus.

This is logical and scriptural.

Sow to the spirit and reap eternal life.

Sow to the flesh and a judgement by fire awaits.

 

[jari]

Here's something to think about.


Did the thief on the cross not get saved because he was not holy? (had not sown in spirit to gain that eternal life)

Did abrahm not get saved because God never told him to become spiritual?

Well moses atleast had God's spirit bible says but not the bible though. How spiritual he actually was?

Bible tells us nothing about these peoples spirituality and yet they were considered righteus. Why, because they believed.

Verse:

Gal 3:5-8 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

(6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.


(7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

(8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.




Bible says that its by faith that we are justified. We cant ever earn that justification by works of the law nor do i believe we can earn it in any other way. Because its faith that instantly justifies us.

All thanks to Jesus.

so isnt justification by faith the only thing we need?

 

[capriham]

I am not a scholar but, from my own personal reading and understanding you can't just lose your Salvation. JESUS paid for ALL our sin. Would anyone say HE didn't know about our sin when HE saved us? Does HE know what sins we will commit in the future ? HE knew and still knows. HE has our hairs counted. BUT, just because we are free from sin does not mean we are to willingly continue in that sin. We are to live Holy or at least do our best every day and, then we confess our sin as we go. HE knows we will fail. HE loves us when we fail. HE loves us after we fail. JESUS Hates sin but loves the sinner just as we should do. I do however believe that we can lose any and all of our rewards. All believers will be judged according to their works and their works can all be burned up and consumed. The Believer however in not consumed but, passes through the fire. Some of us will get to Heaven smelling like smoke and fire but, we still get there. We may not have anything to give to Our SAVIOUR JESUS but, we still get to be with HIM. Thank YOU JESUS!!!

a last note on the subject; Paul said we are all to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling... If my sin can keep me from heaven then I have no hope at all. My Only Hope is Jesus. We all sin and our only Hope is JESUS and our faith in HIM.
In HIS Love always, ken:shade:

Amen to that!! Very well said!

 

[Stickz]

RJ: That is right.

Faith with out works is dead.

Not our works but the Holy Spirit in us.

These are not works from the flesh but from the Spirit.

So, I see this as the true meaning:

Faith with out spiritual works is dead!

The interseting thing about bearing Gods fruit in this life, though it is fruit of the spirit, it is often manifested through the physical ( flesh)...us.

Amen

RJ, as ... cute ... as that little trick is, changing the word to make it mean what you want it to mean, to benefit your doctrine, it isn't a good thing ...

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

II Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

II Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

I know that you believe that verses like these have no bearing on you ( otherwise you would not believe what you do ) but I feel it my Christian duty to post them anyway. To show you what I mean, let's apply that little rule of yours to a couple of other verses and see what it does to them, shall we?

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness with out works,

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet with out sin.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time with out sin unto salvation.

See the problems that are caused?

Jari: Did the thief on the cross not get saved because he was not holy? (had not sown in spirit to gain that eternal life)

The faith that he showed, under the circumstances that he was under, was what saved the thief. How much faith does it take to stand in a church full of other people, that you know to be professing Christians, and announce to them that you believe what they all believe? Less than it does in the face of ridicule, persecution, and death, right?

Jari: Did abrahm not get saved because God never told him to become spiritual?

Abraham was a man of faith: spirituality and righteousness were the fruits of that faith.

Jari: Well moses atleast had God's spirit bible says but not the bible though. How spiritual he actually was?

Bible tells us nothing about these peoples spirituality and yet they were considered righteus. Why, because they believed.

I have to admit, Jari, I am a little confused by your continued use of the word 'spirituality'. When men had visions, prophesied, and spoke with God the way that these men did, it was because of their spirituality. When Moses was commanding to put people to death because of their sins, I think that it's safe to assume that Moses himself was not also committing these same sins. God would not have allowed the leader of His people to be chargeable with that kind of hypocrisy. When Moses did, in fact, do something that displeased God, he was punished by God.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? By the hearing of faith, of course. How do the people around you work miracles?

This verse is often used as though it, in turn, shows that we are not suppose to keep the laws, but the author of this letter also wrote these words:

( Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Not even "once"? This entire book is just full of these requests/commandments, things that we couldn't possibly do, to show us how worthless our efforts actually are, correct? Seems kind of like pouring salt into the wound, to me.

Ephesians 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater ( what if they are saved? ), hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things ( what things? ) cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience ( why was this word not 'disbelief' instead? It seems to imply that these people are going to be judged by their deeds and not their faith, or lack thereof ).

Ephesians 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. How could the saved Ephesians ( if they were OSAS ) ever be partakers here? )

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

The three times that God tried Abraham:

Genesis 12:1 Involved doing something to show obedience. It wasn't something that Abraham done once and that was it, it was enduring faith and obedience. When things got rough, what would have happened had Abraham given up and went back to his family?

Genesis 15 How old is Abraham when God first tells him that he will have a son that will come forth from his own bowels? How long did Abraham have to ( believe ) wait before Sarah became pregnant? Ishmael had not even been born yet. Abraham and Sarah were already too old to have "conceivably" had children. God required Abraham to continue to ( believe ) wait for at least thirteen more years, according to scripture. Every year ( in his nineties ) how hard would it have been for Abraham to have continued to believe that he would one day father a child with a woman who was just ten years younger than he? Could Abraham not have given up believing? But, we know from scripture that he did not. What would have happened had he given up believing? Would he still have been rewarded?

Then the third time was with the sacrifice of the son that he had waited and believed so long to receive. And here again, God did not tell Abraham to go into his nearby backyard, or to a place close by, why?

Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Genesis 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ***, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

Genesis 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. We know that Abraham had at least three days to be tempted, three days to decide not to do it.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. What gospel?

Jari: Bible says that its by faith that we are justified. We cant ever earn that justification by works of the law nor do i believe we can earn it in any other way. Because its faith that instantly justifies us

We are justified by faith, Jari.

Jari: so isnt justification by faith the only thing we need?

Yes, when our faith is sufficient enough to justify us.

 

[Zstrastwa]

I pray that God forgives all this debating, which is evil in His eyes.
There is but only one true gospel! zstrastwa.freeforums.org/salvation-what-makes-you-saved-t4.html

 

[jari]

Stickz I apreciate the honesty of your response and if i remember correctly you consider your self not justified yet.. and not saved yet.. because your not in heaven yet.

Personally even my faith maybe little in some things i know I do believe Jesus died for me and I believe this was enough to be justified.

God bless you stickz


By the way, the thief on the cross had nothing to lose he was already dying so asking Jesus to remember him when He goes to His kingdom showed that he truly believed Jesus was of better place , kingdom from heaven.
If faith was so easy to him why would it be any harder for us?

Other verses about faith:

Luk 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.


Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

 

[Stickz]

Peace be unto you

Jari, you remember incorrectly because you assume that you understand what was being said. We all do it sometimes because we don't truly understand where the other is coming from. To me, being forgiven is different from being "saved" in the way that you use the word.

If you fell off of a ship into shark infested waters and someone threw you a life saver, you could consider yourself saved from immediate drowning, but you wouldn't consider yourself saved and out of danger until you were back in the ship, correct?

How about this:

A woman catches her husband having an affair with the next door neighbor; She also learns that he has been going to strip clubs without her knowledge; He's been spending a lot of time on porn sites on the internet, having cybersex with strange women; And he has even been using drugs and alcohol.

When the man realizes that he is caught, that his wife is aware of all of his recent behaviors, and that he hurt her deeply, it occurs to him that he still loves her, and that she had absolutely nothing to do with his faithlessness to their marriage. She is a very good woman, and he doesn't want to lose her, so he grovels before her, begging her forgiveness.

The woman, seeing that her husband is truly sorry, reminds herself that no one is perfect, and she forgives him. She calls her lawyer and tells her to put a hold on the divorce papers because she and her husband were going to try to work things out.

Now, wasn't that a great thing that the woman did? She forgave the man out of love, even when she had every right to put him away for his deeds, correct? From that point on, should the man believe that he will be forgiven, or has been forgiven?

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. Are we already justified, or not?

zstrastwa: I pray that God forgives all this debating, which is evil in His eyes.
There is but only one true gospel! zstrastwa.freeforums.org/salvation-what-makes-you-saved-t4.html

That is actually kind of funny when you think about it, zstrastwa. You are also arguing your own point in doing this. When you can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that what you believe is the absolute truth, then you will do the debating world a great service. Until then, trying to manipulate others into believing what they believe is what everyone is going to do.

 

[Zstrastwa]

I'm not arguing a point, the Bible says debating is evil and there is only one true gospel: salvation through grace by faith.

 

[ForumAddict]

I'm not arguing a point, the Bible says debating is evil and there is only one true gospel: salvation through grace by faith.

hwere does he say that?

 

[farout]

I think your examples of using the man and the woman are a poor choice. Frankly there is enough garbage in the real world with out making such junk up. You are way too discricptive. There are many other ways to demonstrate your point that would have gotten the point across. Thank you.

 

[RJ]

Of course faith without the spiritual life is death.

God will destroy all flesh and its filthy works.

Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, now that is
true theology. How can a person fall away
if that person follows the guidance of the
Holy Spirit, not possible.

Falling away is only possible if a person does
not continue in there faith in Jesus.

This is logical and scriptural.

Sow to the spirit and reap eternal life.

Sow to the flesh and a judgement by fire awaits.

Falling away is only possible if a person does
not continue in there faith in Jesus.

I think if one falls away like this, it is possible that they were not saved in the first place.

Paul talks about it being impossible to fall away if once enlightened
( Hebrews 6:4).

 

[Beans]

Falling away is only possible if a person does
not continue in there faith in Jesus.

I think if one falls away like this, it is possible that they were not saved in the first place.

Paul talks about it being impossible to fall away if once enlightened
( Hebrews 6:4).

I agree that Hebrews 6:4 does seem to be saying that once someone has had an experience with God that they cannot fall away. But verses 6-8 seem to contradict that by saying that they can fall away, but they will be "burned" with the thorns and briers.

The parable of the sower (Luke 8) seems to suggest that people can start out on the road with God but then things happen along the way that stop their progress.
Could we, for example, say that the seed that falls into shallow ground who "receives the word with joy" (Luke 8:13) is not saved? It sounds like they received the Lord in the traditional sense.
Or what about those who are "are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life" ? (Luke 8:14)

It seems to me that "Salvation" is something deeper that just a confession of faith.
I believe we need to endure to be saved (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)

Peace Beans