Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Once saved can we lose our salvation??

Status
Not open for further replies.
I agree that Hebrews 6:4 does seem to be saying that once someone has had an experience with God that they cannot fall away. But verses 6-8 seem to contradict that by saying that they can fall away, but they will be "burned" with the thorns and briers.

The parable of the sower (Luke 8) seems to suggest that people can start out on the road with God but then things happen along the way that stop their progress.
Could we, for example, say that the seed that falls into shallow ground who "receives the word with joy" (Luke 8:13) is not saved? It sounds like they received the Lord in the traditional sense.
Or what about those who are "are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life" ? (Luke 8:14)

It seems to me that "Salvation" is something deeper that just a confession of faith.
I believe we need to endure to be saved (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)

Peace Beans

Hebrews 6

6 They are crucifying God’s Son all over again and exposing him to public shame. 7 The ground receives a blessing from God when it drinks up the rain that regularly comes and falls on it and yields useful plants for those who farm it. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it’s useless and close to being cursed. It ends up being burned.

I think Paul is saying here that you just can't or don't go in and out of salvation on a whim and, if you could, that would require Jesus to crawl back up on the cross, die and be resurrected all over again, each time a person wants forgiveness and salvation and, of course that is not going to happen.

Christ is our final and true Priest and, unlike the Priest's before him, like Aron, Christ's work was finished and he sat down.

Finaly, I think Pauls is saying that you better get it right because judgement is coming and God will separate the true believers from the non-believers.

Salvation does go deeper than an acclamation of faith. It is the difference between a Head Christian and a Heart Christian. Knowing of God is one thing but, knowing God and having God in you is the key.

"Once people have seen the light, gotten a taste of heaven and been part of the work of the Holy Spirit" ....Once in you, there is nothing in scripture that says God will leave you, in fact, he says just the opposite, that he will never forsake you.

4-8Once people have seen the light, gotten a taste of heaven and been part of the work of the Holy Spirit, once they've personally experienced the sheer goodness of God's Word and the powers breaking in on us—if then they turn their backs on it, washing their hands of the whole thing, well, they can't start over as if nothing happened. That's impossible. Why, they've re-crucified Jesus!
 
Hi Beans

I agree that Hebrews 6:4 does seem to be saying that once someone has had an experience with God that they cannot fall away. But verses 6-8 seem to contradict that by saying that they can fall away, but they will be "burned" with the thorns and briers.

The parable of the sower (Luke 8) seems to suggest that people can start out on the road with God but then things happen along the way that stop their progress.
Could we, for example, say that the seed that falls into shallow ground who "receives the word with joy" (Luke 8:13) is not saved? It sounds like they received the Lord in the traditional sense.
Or what about those who are "are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life" ? (Luke 8:14)

It seems to me that "Salvation" is something deeper that just a confession of faith.
I believe we need to endure to be saved (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)

Peace Beans

It's different to come to close to God and believe, than not to believe and fall away. The jews were recrucifying Christ for them self, by which i think Paul meant they didnt believe in the one time sacrafice of Jesus Christ.
That was Paul's topic in the beginning of hebrews. He was saying how jews have to make sacrafices but how Jesus was one sacrafice once and for all.

I believe many people can receive the word with joy.. but then forget about it.

but we have received christ.. by faith..

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
 
Last edited:
farout: I think your examples of using the man and the woman are a poor choice. Frankly there is enough garbage in the real world with out making such junk up. You are way too discricptive. There are many other ways to demonstrate your point that would have gotten the point across. Thank you.
I think, if I was someone that supported Once Saved, Always Saved, you'd have had nothing to say about my examples at all, therefore making what you have said just a personal attack. Actually, if I believed in OSAS, you probably would have praised my post.

After reading and re-reading the example that you were referring to, I would still change nothing about it, except for, maybe, adding more detail to it. The more like a scumbag that the man looked, the greater was the act of forgiveness. Hence, the description. Thank you.
 
Jari-
So about the loving brother again... Bible says anyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

So John was stating a criteria of how to know some one is born of God. Yet he also said we should love. Does this mean now that we become born of God when we choose to love? No not according to 1 John 4:19 because He first loved us.

What it means in my opinion is that those who are infact born again have the ability to love and should do so.

And herefrom we also know the false brothers that cannot love for they are not born of God.


I agree that God loves us and the only reason we can love others is because God loved us first. But doesn't God love everybody? He loved us while we were "sinners". If a "sinner" shows love to a stranger, where does that love come from, if not from God? Is a sinner's love worth less because they don't have a relationship with God?
I think that the story of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37) shows us that God is a just judge who does not judge by outward appearances (John 7:24), but looks at the heart and actions of a person.
Everyone has the ability to love (as imperfect as it may be). The question is will they try?
I think John is pretty clear that a "Christian" without love, is not a Christian.
1 John 3:16
Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.

1 John 3:17
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

1 John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

So once again i ask do we see this so that Jesus wouldnt dwell in you if you choose not to love? Well bible says if you hate brother your a liar about loving God (1 John 4:20). So i believe only born again can love spontaniously and willingfully but everyone also has choise not to love but it does not seem to be the criteria here as long as you dont hate your brother , you may remain neutral and Jesus dwells in you.

Gatatians 5:22 says that Love is one of the FRUITS of the Spirit.

John 13:34 commands us to love one another.

Matthew 25:45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

I don't think it is possible to stay "neutral" as far as love is concerned.
 
I agree that God loves us and the only reason we can love others is because God loved us first. But doesn't God love everybody? He loved us while we were "sinners". If a "sinner" shows love to a stranger, where does that love come from, if not from God? Is a sinner's love worth less because they don't have a relationship with God?
I think that the story of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37) shows us that God is a just judge who does not judge by outward appearances (John 7:24), but looks at the heart and actions of a person.
Everyone has the ability to love (as imperfect as it may be). The question is will they try?
I think John is pretty clear that a "Christian" without love, is not a Christian.




Gatatians 5:22 says that Love is one of the FRUITS of the Spirit.

John 13:34 commands us to love one another.

Matthew 25:45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

I don't think it is possible to stay "neutral" as far as love is concerned.

Hmm you believe that you earn salvation by works of love... im picking this from what you said here and in other posts.
I dont believe so because even most unloving person can be forgiven by God and God gives him a new heart.

the good samaritian was example of what God really wants.. because the jews and pharisees were selfrighteus.
 
Last edited:
I wish what you said was true, oh how I wish.

Alas, it is not true. You neglected Paul's revelation regarding
living by the spirit and not by the flesh.

Please read the following quote:

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Do not be deceived, a Christian must conform to the doctrine of
Godliness RJ. A Christian cannot live in the flesh and escape God's
judgement.

If you are going to take something I say and then, call it untrue, you can at least quote it!
Where in the world do you get that I say anything about living in the flesh?????...And you tell me, don't be decieved?...Please!
 
Last edited:
farout: After reading all these posts, perhaps those who are sure you can be lost again, or those who believe once saved always saved, I doubt but only a few will change their mind.

I thought about it and came to see how the Bible relates to this in the Old Testament.

When Moses told to put the blood of the lamb on the door posts of the place in which they lives, I think it could have been something like this.

Some put the blood on and went to sleep totally confident and never lost a winks sleep.

Some put the blood on and had real doubts the death angel would see the blood, and would enter and the first born would die. So worried they stated up all night in doubt and worry. Totally shocked that in the morning the death angel did pass over their abode.

Personally I have written in this subject here and believe that genuine born again believers are secure in the salvation and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Genuine is a key point. I do not for one minute think that a person who said a prsyer when they were a child, and did NOTHING as a teenager, and adult, is saved. That is a huge difference, and that is not salvation, there is not a slightest hint of a changed life.
After re-reading your post, I find your use of this interesting, farout, being as how almost every person that was passed over that night, by the destroyer, was later destroyed in the desert for sin and disbelief. Before they reached the promised land, but after the Lamb's blood, there was a journey that they had to make, and that was where they all failed. I'm not sure that this was a good example of Once Saved, Always Saved at all ...? Nor do I lose sleep at night worried that the blood of Christ wasn't sufficient enough to save me.

It isn't that the people who don't believe in OSAS have a lack of faith, or are immature Christians just because we don't believe what you do ( I know that a lot of you believe that believing OSAS makes you more mature Christians, because it shows your total faith in something ); if we have any lack of faith, it is in ourselves, because we have not entirely factored ourselves completely out of the equation as you people have.
I don't deny that you have a good, strong faith, I just think it's ill-placed. If you want an example of people that truly seem to have faith in what they believe don't forget the Muslims who are willing to strap bombs to themselves in the name of Allah. Just because you believe something, and never verbally show any doubt in it, doesn't make it truth.

You seem to believe that Jesus completed the walk for you, two thousand years ago, and we believe that we have to walk the walk now, with Jesus
. I see Jesus telling us to pick up our crosses and follow him as him saying that there is still more to do; had he intended to complete all, with his dying on the cross, I don't think that he would have told us to bear our own cross as well.

I believe that I need to show Jesus how much I appreciate what he did for me, and not just say it once and be done with it. Remember the parable of the talents? Those that were rewarded were those that did something with the talents that they had received, adding to them. Remember what happened to the man that just held on to the talent that he had and didn't do anything to add to it?
 
Hmm you believe that you earn salvation by works of love... im picking this from what you said here and in other posts.
I dont believe so because even most unloving person can be forgiven by God and God gives him a new heart.

the good samaritian was example of what God really wants.. because the jews and pharisees were selfrighteus.


No actually. I don't believe that there is ANYTHING that we can do to EARN salvation. Salvation is a gift that even the best person on Earth could never be worthy of. But having said that, I do think that God expects are to DO something for him in response to his love. We are created for good works (Ephesians 2:10) after all.
Jari you say...
even most unloving person can be forgiven by God and God gives him a new heart

So what happens when he gets a "new heart" will he still be unloving?
 
Hi Beans...

No actually. I don't believe that there is ANYTHING that we can do to EARN salvation. Salvation is a gift that even the best person on Earth could never be worthy of. But having said that, I do think that God expects are to DO something for him in response to his love. We are created for good works (Ephesians 2:10) after all.
Jari you say...


So what happens when he gets a "new heart" will he still be unloving?

put that just paying it afterwards your self isntead of paying it before salvation.... same thing essentially.

to me its either pay ur self or dont.


new unloving heart? much much more loving heart. still free will and its faith that renews our heart everyday. heart can also suffer from lack of faith and whatever.
 
Last edited:
After re-reading your post, I find your use of this interesting, farout, being as how almost every person that was passed over that night, by the destroyer, was later destroyed in the desert for sin and disbelief. Before they reached the promised land, but after the Lamb's blood, there was a journey that they had to make, and that was where they all failed. I'm not sure that this was a good example of Once Saved, Always Saved at all ...? Nor do I lose sleep at night worried that the blood of Christ wasn't sufficient enough to save me.

It isn't that the people who don't believe in OSAS have a lack of faith, or are immature Christians just because we don't believe what you do ( I know that a lot of you believe that believing OSAS makes you more mature Christians, because it shows your total faith in something ); if we have any lack of faith, it is in ourselves, because we have not entirely factored ourselves completely out of the equation as you people have.
I don't deny that you have a good, strong faith, I just think it's ill-placed. If you want an example of people that truly seem to have faith in what they believe don't forget the Muslims who are willing to strap bombs to themselves in the name of Allah. Just because you believe something, and never verbally show any doubt in it, doesn't make it truth.

You seem to believe that Jesus completed the walk for you, two thousand years ago, and we believe that we have to walk the walk now, with Jesus
. I see Jesus telling us to pick up our crosses and follow him as him saying that there is still more to do; had he intended to complete all, with his dying on the cross, I don't think that he would have told us to bear our own cross as well.

I believe that I need to show Jesus how much I appreciate what he did for me, and not just say it once and be done with it. Remember the parable of the talents? Those that were rewarded were those that did something with the talents that they had received, adding to them. Remember what happened to the man that just held on to the talent that he had and didn't do anything to add to it?
Excellent response stickz. What is most interesting is that not even Moses entered Cannan. Yet the apostles saw Moses chatting with Jesus and Elijah on the mountain. So Moses may not have entered Cannan, yet was saved. So what was the difference between Moses and, for example, Korah, Nadab and Abihu, Zimri, ...why did the blood of the covenant not cover their sin yet did for Moses?
 
After re-reading your post, I find your use of this interesting, farout, being as how almost every person that was passed over that night, by the destroyer, was later destroyed in the desert for sin and disbelief. Before they reached the promised land, but after the Lamb's blood, there was a journey that they had to make, and that was where they all failed. I'm not sure that this was a good example of Once Saved, Always Saved at all ...? Nor do I lose sleep at night worried that the blood of Christ wasn't sufficient enough to save me.

It isn't that the people who don't believe in OSAS have a lack of faith, or are immature Christians just because we don't believe what you do ( I know that a lot of you believe that believing OSAS makes you more mature Christians, because it shows your total faith in something ); if we have any lack of faith, it is in ourselves, because we have not entirely factored ourselves completely out of the equation as you people have. I don't deny that you have a good, strong faith, I just think it's ill-placed. If you want an example of people that truly seem to have faith in what they believe don't forget the Muslims who are willing to strap bombs to themselves in the name of Allah. Just because you believe something, and never verbally show any doubt in it, doesn't make it truth.

You seem to believe that Jesus completed the walk for you, two thousand years ago, and we believe that we have to walk the walk now, with Jesus. I see Jesus telling us to pick up our crosses and follow him as him saying that there is still more to do; had he intended to complete all, with his dying on the cross, I don't think that he would have told us to bear our own cross as well.

I believe that I need to show Jesus how much I appreciate what he did for me, and not just say it once and be done with it. Remember the parable of the talents? Those that were rewarded were those that did something with the talents that they had received, adding to them. Remember what happened to the man that just held on to the talent that he had and didn't do anything to add to it?

I am an OSAS believer and I don't believe we are saved as long as we stay saved.

Jesus did complete the walk for us 2000 years ago, it was forgiveness and salvation and, it began with the cross and ended with his resurrection.

Luther was once a devout Roman Catholic, struggled with his faith. During the years prior to reformation, he continually saw and understood things from the Bible that went against the Roman Church teachings.

As history goes, Luther often ended up in prison for his resistence. On several occasions, he would leave his cell and go to confession. When he returned to his cell, he would discover something else that he needed to confess.

So, what was he to do? Wait until he went to confession again? In the meantime was he unclean, unforgiven and was he out of salvation for the time being? The Catholic hierarcy said yes. He loved Jesus and was perplexed that he could so easily fall out of grace.

Then he realized the truth that Jesus said would set you free, That you are forgiven for all your sins, even the ones you forget and the reformation began.

Luther realized there is nothing wrong with asking for forgiveness on a daily basis but, it is when it is a requirement, that it slides a person right back into legalism and the curse of the law, which is bondage.

The Bible says that Jesus died once and for all of us. He is not going to die again for sins, we can't crucify him all over again and to his disgrace. If you go, or try because you can never do it perfectly but, if you were to go to God daily for forgiveness, I think it is a good cahnce that he would say, "why are you asking me for something I have already done for you"!

Jesus did take care of all of it 2000 years ago, when he looked up from the cross and said to the Father, that it was finished, complete and, then like no Priest before him, he was allowed to sit down.

I believe that our salvation is now and complete and I believe that the Bible tells us that we are already seated in the heaven with Christ, nothing is more permanent than that.

I love the Lord too and want to please him. It's not that I do not look at my sin, I do but, the point is, God said that he would no longer look at them. There is nothing I can do, he has completely taken it out of my hands.

All I can do is abide in the vine and produce his fruit; when I mess up and I will, he has already forgiven me and my salvation is still intact.

As he, who is in me, chastises me and convicts me, I have regret and remorse, in other words, I am repentive.

One of the most important aspects of my relationship with him is the peace and freedom of knowing when I forget or don't readily see a sin in my life, he is right there, picking me up and telling me it's already been taken care of.

Sure I want to walk the walk and I too want to please the Lord and show my appreciation but, when I don't do it so perfectly at times, I am at peace with my relationship with the him and my salvation.
 
Last edited:
The Bible says that Jesus died once and for all of us. He is not going to die again for sins, we can't crucify him all over again and to his disgrace. If you go, or try because you can never do it perfectly but, if you were to go to God daily for forgiveness, I think it is a good chance that he would say, "why are you asking me for something I have already done for you"!

Jesus did take care of all of it 2000 years ago, when he looked up from the cross and said to the Father, that it was finished, complete and, then like no Priest before him, he was allowed to sit down.

I believe that our salvation is now and complete and I believe that the Bible tells us that we are already seated in the heaven with Christ, nothing is more permanent than that.
That was a very well thought out post RJ.The three paragraphs I quoted is really truth from out of time.

If I read the bible with my mind stuck in linear time then OSAS does not work and it's up to us to get ourselves to God by doing.

If you look at scripture out of time as Jesus being the "day of the Lord" then we were created by God who raised us up with him 2000 years ago.That new creature who is seated in Christ would only begin to manifest in us as we work it out(or in).
 
brakelite: Excellent response stickz. What is most interesting is that not even Moses entered Cannan. Yet the apostles saw Moses chatting with Jesus and Elijah on the mountain. So Moses may not have entered Cannan, yet was saved. So what was the difference between Moses and, for example, Korah, Nadab and Abihu, Zimri, ...why did the blood of the covenant not cover their sin yet did for Moses?
brakelite,

God didn't allow Moses to lead the people into Canaan, but put that task on Joshua ( Yeshua ) who had been with Moses from the time of the Exodus ( the deliverance from bondage ). I believe that Joshua represented Jesus and the New Testament here, brakelite, while Moses represented the Law and the Old Covenant. Moses led the people all the way to Canaan but could not lead them in, to show us that the Law by itself cannot get us into Heaven. It was a foreshadowing event.


Deuteronomy 3:23 And I besought the LORD at that time, saying,

Deuteronomy 3:24 O Lord GOD, thou hast begun to shew thy servant thy greatness, and thy mighty hand: for what God is there in heaven or in earth, that can do according to thy works, and according to thy might?

Deuteronomy 3:25 I pray thee, let me go over, and see the good land that is beyond Jordan, that goodly mountain, and Lebanon.

Deuteronomy 3:26 But the LORD was wroth with me for your sakes, and would not hear me: and the LORD said unto me, Let it suffice thee; speak no more unto me of this matter.

Deuteronomy 3:27 Get thee up into the top of Pisgah, and lift up thine eyes westward, and northward, and southward, and eastward, and behold it with thine eyes: for thou shalt not go over this Jordan.

Deuteronomy 3:28 But charge Joshua, and encourage him, and strengthen him: for he shall go over before this people, and he shall cause them to inherit the land which thou shalt see.

The difference between Moses and Korah, Abihu, etc ... was that Moses' actions, that seemed to have kept him out of Canaan, was actually the will of God, for our sakes; Similar to David destroying armies, yet never seeming guilty of the 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' commandment. I believe that the sin that Moses committed which kept him from being able to lead the people into Canaan represented the imperfectness of the Law. Also, Moses had faith and the others did not.

That's my interpretation, anyway, brakelite. I could continue to preach on it, but won't. Hopefully I gave you the information that you were looking for.

Take care
 
"Remain in Christ"........period.

You can't 'lose' your salvation per-say , however, there is no single act that will take you from His hand. The ultimate question should be...were you ever there ?

There are curtain characteristics that will follow every "Born Again" believer. Righteous living before the one you love should be evident, not seeing how much of the 'world' you can hang on to and get away with.

Judas was a perfect example.
 
"Remain in Christ"........period.

You can't 'lose' your salvation per-say , however, there is no single act that will take you from His hand. The ultimate question should be...were you ever there ?

There are curtain characteristics that will follow every "Born Again" believer. Righteous living before the one you love should be evident, not seeing how much of the 'world' you can hang on to and get away with.

Judas was a perfect example.


What I am seeing here is that the OSAS argument wants to say on the one hand, that you don't need to do anything to maintain your salvation and that there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation, while on the other hand that there are certain "works" that you must do to be saved (or else you never were!). Works like saying the sinner's prayer, being baptised in water, and going to church.
You see, we all do works everyday. Our whole lives are a "work", the question should be WHO are you working for? Luke 16:13

Just saying "I'm saved so I don't need to try to be a good person" sounds like an excellent way to cop out from doing anything good or meaningful with your life. Plus it is such a bad witness to people in the World who can feel their consciences pushing them to help others. How can we tell them "if you get saved, you'll have to stop all your good works because that's trying to earn your salvation" ?

Sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me!
 
What I am seeing here is that the OSAS argument wants to say on the one hand, that you don't need to do anything to maintain your salvation and that there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation, while on the other hand that there are certain "works" that you must do .to be saved (or else you never were!). Works like saying the sinner's prayer, being baptised in water, and going to church.
You see, we all do works everyday. Our whole lives are a "work", the question should be WHO are you working for? Luke 16:13

Just saying "I'm saved so I don't need to try to be a good person" sounds like an excellent way to cop out from doing anything good or meaningful with your life. Plus it is such a bad witness to people in the World who can feel their consciences pushing them to help others. How can we tell them "if you get saved, you'll have to stop all your good works because that's trying to earn your salvation" ?

Sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me!

Just saying "I'm saved so I don't need to try to be a good person" sounds like an excellent way to cop out from doing anything good or meaningful with your life.

Again, here is my rub.

Though I understand your above concern, it is the "painting of the picture" about a believer of OSAS that remains to be a common thread, no pun intended!

I believe in OSAS and here is the problem with your point "I'm saved so I don't need to try to be a good person":

I have never said or even suggested that and, the over whelming supporters of Eternal Security here on TJ, if not all, have not either.
It is simply not our stance but, there it is again, the insubstantiated corner that we are painted into time and time again or, just the association.

Jeremiah 31:34
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”



It is not that we do not look at our sin, we do but, the point is, God said he doesn't!
 
I think we all agree, I think were getting confused on the "wording".

WORKS...have NOTHING to do with being saved or not being saved. We all know people with great hearts and will give there shirt off there back to someone.....but are as lost as the day is long. We all also know people that profess Christ and would just as well KEEP there shirt...and think there saved.

The notion that people think all you have to do is say a pray to be saved has dammed many. If that prayer hasn't/didn't penetrate the heart and mind then it was just words. Fruit is the evidence of ones salvation and that fruit is manifested in many different ways...good works is not one of them. A Born Again individual loves Jesus and is committed to following his Word , not out of obligation....but Love. If that is evident "losing" your salvation isn't a question.
 
Donnie Ducati,

Give me some examples of manifested fruit that isn't works, please.

The word 'manifest' means visible, or made clear, and anything that someone could clearly see about you would be a work.

Wouldn't following ( obeying ) His word be works, whether you are doing it out of love or not?

Isn't works anything that one would have to do ( or have present ) to gain, prove, or maintain salvation? Even love. Love is not something you just say, or something that resides quietly in your own protected heart, but real love is something that is evident. If you only tell people that you love, then you don't actually love. But, when you show people that you love, it is works.

I agree, everyone is confused on the wording, because some people don't seem to have concrete definitions for the words that they use; the meaning changes on a whim.
 
Donnie Ducati,

Give me some examples of manifested fruit that isn't works, please.

The word 'manifest' means visible, or made clear, and anything that someone could clearly see about you would be a work.

Wouldn't following ( obeying ) His word be works, whether you are doing it out of love or not?

Isn't works anything that one would have to do ( or have present ) to gain, prove, or maintain salvation? Even love. Love is not something you just say, or something that resides quietly in your own protected heart, but real love is something that is evident. If you only tell people that you love, then you don't actually love. But, when you show people that you love, it is works.

I agree, everyone is confused on the wording, because some people don't seem to have concrete definitions for the words that they use; the meaning changes on a whim.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose

Ephesians 2:9
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 9:32

32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

Romans 11:6
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[a]

I could go on and on with scripture.
It is another one of God's mysteries how it's done but, it is not by our works that gives life to our faith, it is by the works of him who lives in us.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top