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Once saved can we lose our salvation??

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RJ, can you give me some examples of manifested fruit from your own personal life that would not be considered works? You have been a Christian long enough that you should be able to give me some examples of works that he performs in you, and that you have nothing to do with, right?

I could go on and on with scripture too, but I'm tired of putting the effort into it just to have someone say that I have taken all of my scripture out of context. For those who have questions about "works", I suggest getting a concordance ( like Strong's ) and looking up the words 'work', 'labour', and 'deed', and deciding for yourselves what the Bible says about the subject.
 
RJ, can you give me some examples of manifested fruit from your own personal life that would not be considered works? You have been a Christian long enough that you should be able to give me some examples of works that he performs in you, and that you have nothing to do with, right?

I could go on and on with scripture too, but I'm tired of putting the effort into it just to have someone say that I have taken all of my scripture out of context. For those who have questions about "works", I suggest getting a concordance ( like Strong's ) and looking up the words 'work', 'labour', and 'deed', and deciding for yourselves what the Bible says about the subject.

Dear Brother,

Just like, when I say that I believe in Eternal Security or OSAS and, that a common response is that I don't care about sin or I am labeled as one who thinks sin doesn't matter, so I answer your question as best I can.

You said above: You have been a Christian long enough that you should be able to give me some examples of works that he performs in you, and that you have nothing to do with, right?

This is somewhat similar to my statement above: With regard, to your almost typical response, the answer is a resounding no! I never once said that we did not have anything, physically, to do; that would of course be an impossiblity in this realm where we live and move.


But, I did say this:

These you are familiar with so, I will paraphrase:

" Your faith is dead with out works"

" It is by faith that you are saved through grace, it is a gift and NOT of your works, unless you can boast."

" I am the vine and YOU are the branch and with you in me and I in you, you will produce much fruit, with out me you can do nothing."

How do these very familiar verses match up and make sense all together?

It is not by your works that you are saved but by faith but, your faith is dead with out works, very confusing! Very confusing until you match up the last verse, we are the branch and with out the one who lives inside us, our faith is dead.

Like I have said many times, I look at this as a mystery like many of God's actions so, do I have the complete, all knowing answer to your question? No!

But, I do beleive this with all my being and from scripture:

With out him in us, we can do nothing. Spiritually and through us he manifests his purpose and will in us. These works, fruits, deeds are from him.
Though we manifest a lot of these into the physical, they are no less born spiritually. Can a non-believer produces good things, to us no doubt but, with out him we can do nothing. Some day we will know how all this works but, in the meantime, I will just take his word for it.



So, finally here are some works that he performs through me and, mind you again, I never said that I didn't have anything to do and some of them will eventually manfifest themselves into the physical plane but no less born spiritually, just like us and you may agree or disagree:
  • Seeing my sin
  • God's love
  • Faith
  • Endurance
  • Change in heart
  • Law of attraction (seeking others of the faith)
  • Love for Jesus
  • Love for the word
  • Love to spread the word
  • Desire to be holy and righteous
  • That God is real and Soverign
  • I can't do anything God can and do it perfectly
  • That I do not belong to the world
There is many many more; I am sure you could add to the list.

Here is a point to ponder:

I know how much you want to please him and so do I.

Learn to give God all the credit for all good things that is done by you; not once do you say this is what I have done to please God. The very millisecond that you acknowledge that a good thing was done through your work, you have missed the point. He has told us that our efforts are like filthy rags but his perfect will and purpose through us is faith with works.

You are a vessel and a branch to dilver his works through your own spiritual or physical manifestations.

Romans 8:28


28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who[b] have been called according to his purpose.

James 1:17


17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
 
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RJ, do you or do you not agree with what Donnie Ducati said?

Donnie Ducati: Fruit is the evidence of ones salvation and that fruit is manifested in many different ways...good works is not one of them.
Let's look at the list that you gave here, RJ:


  • Seeing my sin
  • God's love
  • Faith
  • Endurance
  • Change in heart
  • Law of attraction (seeking others of the faith)
  • Love for Jesus
  • Love for the word
  • Love to spread the word
  • Desire to be holy and righteous
  • That God is real and Soverign
  • I can't do anything God can and do it perfectly
  • That I do not belong to the world
Would you agree that many of these should be present in a genuine believer?

Would you agree, of those that you have a part in, that they are good works ( they are certainly not bad works, right? ), not that you have done on your own but with God's help?

If you answer "yes" to the above questions, how could good works have nothing to do with salvation? Are you justified by them, or saved because of them? No. You are saved and justified by the faith behind them, right? So, someone that lacks these things, also lacks the faith that they claim. Would you agree?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ( faith alone is insufficient )

It seems to me, RJ, that you and I may very well agree on this particular subject.


 
RJ, do you or do you not agree with what Donnie Ducati said?

Let's look at the list that you gave here, RJ:
Would you agree that many of these should be present in a genuine believer?

Would you agree, of those that you have a part in, that they are good works ( they are certainly not bad works, right? ), not that you have done on your own but with God's help?

If you answer "yes" to the above questions, how could good works have nothing to do with salvation? Are you justified by them, or saved because of them? No. You are saved and justified by the faith behind them, right? So, someone that lacks these things, also lacks the faith that they claim. Would you agree?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. ( faith alone is insufficient )

It seems to me, RJ, that you and I may very well agree on this particular subject.



I see this as pretty simple and the truth of the way it is:

You have faith and works backwards.

Faith saves and works are the result and follows faith, not the other way around!

Remember, Ephesians 2 says it is not by works because you could boast. Believe it or not, all of this is done by God and none of you or we would be right back under a legalistic system, which he abolished. We absolutely can not be saved by ANY works on our part.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10

Of course, once being saved and you do not exhibit fruits or deeds of the one inside you, then your faith was dead and, you are not truly saved in the first place.

Here is a good example of works that follow ( or a result of) faith and salvation:

John13
34-35"Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples—when they see the love you have for each other."
 
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Okay, RJ, your two posts either just contradicted each other or I'm just too unintelligent to follow you. Either way, again, I'm done. I'm really trying to make an effort to understand what it is that you believe, but I'm just not getting anywhere with it. Sorry.

By the way, I wasn't saying that works comes before faith, and I'm not real sure how you came to that conclusion. In short, what I was saying is that a person can claim that they have faith all day long, but if their faith is not producing certain fruits then their claim is an empty one.
 
Okay, RJ, your two posts either just contradicted each other or I'm just too unintelligent to follow you. Either way, again, I'm done. I'm really trying to make an effort to understand what it is that you believe, but I'm just not getting anywhere with it. Sorry.

By the way, I wasn't saying that works comes before faith, and I'm not real sure how you came to that conclusion. In short, what I was saying is that a person can claim that they have faith all day long, but if their faith is not producing certain fruits then their claim is an empty one.

Sorry, my mistake!

This is what you originally said:
If you answer "yes" to the above questions, how could good works have nothing to do with salvation? Are you justified by them, or saved because of them? No. You are saved and justified by the faith behind them, right? So, someone that lacks these things, also lacks the faith that they claim. Would you agree?

These are your words, and I apologize but to me it appeared that you where putting works equal to faith and even, in the red above, you appeared to say faith followed works.....my mistake!
 
Can you lose your salvation......well........maybe.

You see God tells us once saved he will not let loose of us, and the only sin that will cause lose of salvation is to curse the Holy Spirit and spit in God face and challenge God.

But all things are possible with God, so even an Christian that falls and becomes an Atheist can again find grace.

I think that if one just says to God once in awhile Hello, he will not let you get to that point. If you allow the world to push you away, maybe....not sure about this. It ultimately is up to God.

I am a bit like David, I have sinned against God, I have been a rascal, and have a stronger belief than ever before. God does this to you when you learn to accept him and talk with him. He becomes very wise and your best friend.

The best thing to do right now, is to tell God hello, thank him for all you have and just say, I want to follow you, I am a bit confused , but I did not intend to be.....just kinda happened......would you please forgive me and provide me strength.

I see David in myself some, I have been a rascal at times.....but ultimately I figured out who the boss is and just as God was teaching David, he teaches us all, that things we do, have consequences.

So we learn not to do them....

Kit
 
RJ: " Your faith is dead with out works"
Why do you insist on writing the word 'without' as though it is two words "with out"? Have you ever seen it written this way in any translation of the Bible?

Okay, these are quotes from your first post:

RJ: This is somewhat similar to my statement above: With regard, to your almost typical response, the answer is a resounding no! I never once said that we did not have anything, physically, to do; that would of course be an impossiblity in this realm where we live and move.
RJ: It is not by your works that you are saved but by faith but, your faith is dead with out works, very confusing! Very confusing until you match up the last verse, we are the branch and with out the one who lives inside us, our faith is dead.
RJ: So, finally here are some works that he performs through me and, mind you again, I never said that I didn't have anything to do and some of them will eventually manfifest themselves into the physical plane but no less born spiritually, just like us and you may agree or disagree:
RJ: Learn to give God all the credit for all good things that is done by you
Then you said this in your second post, and it seems contradictory to me:

RJ: Remember, Ephesians 2 says it is not by works because you could boast. Believe it or not, all of this is done by God and none of you or we would be right back under a legalistic system, which he abolished. We absolutely can not be saved by ANY works on our part.
If a person has to have fruits/works to provide validity to their faith, how can works or fruits be irrelevant to salvation?

RJ: Sorry, my mistake!

This is what you originally said:
If you answer "yes" to the above questions, how could good works have nothing to do with salvation? Are you justified by them, or saved because of them? No. You are saved and justified by the faith behind them, right? So, someone that lacks these things, also lacks the faith that they claim. Would you agree?

These are your words, and I apologize but to me it appeared that you where putting works equal to faith and even, in the red above, you appeared to say faith followed works.....my mistake!
You even admit that faith that doesn't produce works/fruits is not a saving faith, RJ. So, yeah, it seems reasonable to me to say that faith and works/fruits goes hand-in-hand. I have never suggested that we have to have works before we have faith. I believe that I have said in another post that I believe that we have to have faith to have the fruits/works.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Okay, RJ, let me ask you something else: You believe that all of your sins past, present and future were forgiven on the cross, right, 2000 years ago? Isn't that what you meant when you said this?

RJ: The Bible says that Jesus died once and for all of us. He is not going to die again for sins, we can't crucify him all over again and to his disgrace. If you go, or try because you can never do it perfectly but, if you were to go to God daily for forgiveness, I think it is a good cahnce that he would say, "why are you asking me for something I have already done for you"!
Don't you also believe that God chastises us when we do sin?
 
Why do you insist on writing the word 'without' as though it is two words "with out"? Have you ever seen it written this way in any translation of the Bible?

Okay, these are quotes from your first post:

Then you said this in your second post, and it seems contradictory to me:

If a person has to have fruits/works to provide validity to their faith, how can works or fruits be irrelevant to salvation?

You even admit that faith that doesn't produce works/fruits is not a saving faith, RJ. So, yeah, it seems reasonable to me to say that faith and works/fruits goes hand-in-hand. I have never suggested that we have to have works before we have faith. I believe that I have said in another post that I believe that we have to have faith to have the fruits/works.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Okay, RJ, let me ask you something else: You believe that all of your sins past, present and future were forgiven on the cross, right, 2000 years ago? Isn't that what you meant when you said this?

Don't you also believe that God chastises us when we do sin?

I am sorry and I offer this with love and no offense:

It is obvious that everyone has their own opinion and, my opinion, especially after your above thread,is that, you and I are not reading the same Bible.

I respectfully give you the last response because I am done.

God Bless
 
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the confusion gets worse


Not to me....... The word works ...oh my, Mans way yep it can confuse.

Simple example, this morning I stopped to fill up the work van and in the store was a box for a food drive. So on my mind is to next time at the grocery store buy a few things to put in the box.

The actual work of buying the things and putting in the box is cool and is a work.

The true work is the thought and attitude that comes from the compassion of the belief in God. That is the true work. The wish to help is the true work.


In what was asked in another post, does god punish us for sins, I say yes sometimes, but I also say if you go and admit them and ask for forgiveness it is forgiven, but if you insist on your own stubborn way and continue to do them, yes you may have to pay for them in this life.

Kit
 
I would go back to the initial conversion. Once saved by Jesus we are with Him until we meet Him. If the conversion was not real then I think some people would think they lost their salvation when in fact it was not real altogether.

I think once we are saved we will not lose it because God is not malevolent that He would make us jump through hoops just to secure our eternal freedom.

When God seems distant it is because I have wandered from Him not Him leaving me. My heart is still Gods despite my departure from Him.

I have heard atheists who were once believers condemn our beliefs. I would say that their conversion was fake because once you know the living God your heart will always be His.
 
I would go back to the initial conversion. Once saved by Jesus we are with Him until we meet Him. If the conversion was not real then I think some people would think they lost their salvation when in fact it was not real altogether.

I think once we are saved we will not lose it because God is not malevolent that He would make us jump through hoops just to secure our eternal freedom.

When God seems distant it is because I have wandered from Him not Him leaving me. My heart is still Gods despite my departure from Him.

I have heard atheists who were once believers condemn our beliefs. I would say that their conversion was fake because once you know the living God your heart will always be His.

I have agreed with this stance from the begining. Beware, there are those here that believe that you can't have salvation with out works and will categorized you as not carrying about your sin.
 
there are those here that believe that you can't have salvation with out works
Please, tell us what you make of the following:

Matt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt.36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


Matt. 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matt. 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.



Seems to me that in every example above that salvation was conditional, not on anyones' acceptance of Christ, but on their works subsequent to their acceptance of Christ.
 
Originally Posted by TouchTestimony
the confusion gets worse
Thats a sign that your paying attention.
We can't really even agree on what saved means.
Most people think it has to do with the afterlife.
Scripture does not provide a clear picture of the afterlife.

In Solomon's day they believed that death(Sheol,the grave) was not knowing anything like atheist heaven.Each man was concerned with carrying on his name on the earth through his seed-line.
God told Abraham there were Nations inside of him.
To the patriarchs obeying God was about a constant saving grace based on the promise in Genesis that the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent and his seed.
They only had a vague concept of how God would pull this off.

Abraham was given a promise that Isaac(which means laughter)would carry on his name.

Hebrews 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Abraham didn't have a clue how God would do this he just reckoned that God was able.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Now today I have no clue how God will pull off this reconciliation but I reckon he is able.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether
they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Oh man,how is going to pull that one off?
Oh well,I reckon he is able.

Works are simply faith applied to action.
That applies to faith for evil and faith for life(I didn't say good).

I need faith to get out of my chair and get a sandwich.
It requires a knowledge that the refrigerator has the ingredients and that I have the resolve to pull it off.
 
Please, tell us what you make of the following:

Matt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will claim to the lord to be Christians, just like we know many claim the same in our churches today. We all know that not all of these are true saved Christians. You have missing verses that help to explain: 23 Then I will say to them, " I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers.....again these are not Christians. I see no works here!

Matt.36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.This from chapter 12. This is words of acknowledging God before other men; have you spread the gospel.
Again, this is a description between a true believer and a non-believer. This is also proof of salvation first then works of the spirit in you afterward, which indicate that your faith is not dead....faith, salvation, then works and in that order.
Matt. 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.Are you telling me if a brother ask you forgiveness you would'nt do it? This is the mark of a Christian and the fruits of the spirit within you! This has nothing to do with the works that you seek!

Matt. 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.This is a typical illustration of seperating the sheep from the goats or the wheat from the tares, meaning the saved from the un-saved which happens during judgement. This has nothing to do with the works that you seek!

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Yes, works of the spirit in you that prove you are a Christian and saved. Remember Jesus said: " If you are in me and I in you, you will produce much fruit but without me you can do nothing". So, the works come after faith and salvation and not the other way around. Remember Ephesians says that: " You are save through faith in grace, it is a gift and not of your works."


Seems to me that in every example above that salvation was conditional, not on anyones' acceptance of Christ, but on their works subsequent to their acceptance of Christ.You are so wrong and do not support the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ!
Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; Please do not spread this false doctrine of salvation by works.

I highlighted answers to all your verses above.
 
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Being born again is salvation and eternal life!
The elect which are those Born -again have eternal life! We are judged by the law of Liberty!
Our spirit once BORN OF GODS perfect SEED ,cannot sin! our flesh still can sin and can reap from sin if we do not repent! God has declared those Born of God More than conquerors , Already over comers !
Even if we sin in our flesh minds and do not know it and reap sickness and has provided healing for our flesh if we obey His living Words!
He wipes away our tears by us not remembering our mistakes!
We must understand our spirit man is very different from our flesh man if Born of God!

We have a Spirit body and mind and a flesh body and mind! Once Born of God!

This is our Spirit man , once Born of GODS perfect SEED!

The inner man , new man, inward man, New creature and hidden man!

Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Eph_3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Rom_7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
2Co_4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

1Pe_3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

This is the SEED our New Spirit is made from
1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Salvation is of our Spirit ,it only our Spirit He changes at salvation!
1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Rom_8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Gal_4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Our spirit mans home ,Once Born of God is no longer counted as part of this world! Our home now and forever is New Jerusalem1 Has nothing to do with this dying flesh body with it dying mind!

Joh_17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh_17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Once part of His family and household ? HE keeps us we do not keep ourselves!

2Ti_1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

1Pe_1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe_5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Has nothing to do with us!It what He did! It all about Him!
He gets all the glory because He does it all!

It is nothing perfect on earth !None of us in the flesh are perfect! Our flesh minds and bodies are Imperfect ,they are never perfected! Everything we see will perish .
The unseen is where the perfect is!


2Co_4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


We accept by Faith What He did for Us!

We must accept HIS gospel as Truth and Him into our hearts as LORD! We give Him all we Have and are At salvation!

Only by accepting His Gospel as Truth!Do we get eternal life!
Eternal life ,meaning Forever More!
Salvation is a Perfect Gift!

Jas_1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Pe_1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Heb_9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
1Co_6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

(Rev 12:11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I could of put LOTS more scriptures! But it all by FAITH !

satan always tries to get us to doubt !
1Pe_4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

I put all my faith in my LORD JESUS! I do Not put my faith in me! I do not trust Me !I trust HIM!
I know and understand i DWELL in a sin filled body!
It wants to sin! My Spirit Hates Sin!

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


This is MY LORDS GOSPEL!
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
The Only way to eternal LIFE!
 
Matt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will claim to the lord to be Christians, just like we know many claim the same in our churches today. We all know that not all of these are true saved Christians. You have missing verses that help to explain: 23 Then I will say to them, " I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers.....again these are not Christians. I see no works here!

The thrust of my quote from Matthew is to focus on who will be going into heaven. Jesus says, "they that do the will of God." You can bet anything you want that those who were refused entry were 'believers', after all, they prophesied, worked miracles, did all manner of religious stuff. Obviously though they were relying on that 'stuff' to impress God and thus gain entry to heaven. God wasn't impressed. However, the fact remains that only those who do the will of the Father gain entry. The question we must ask is "what is the will of the Father?"
Well, that's answered easy. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." (Matt. 17:5) Okay, that's clear. The will of the Father is for us to listen to His Son. So, next question, "What did the Son say?" Well, the answer to that is easy to. "If ye love Me keep My commandments". You following this train of thought? To precis the above: those who will gain entry to heaven are those who keep God's commandments. Why? Because they are doing the will of the Father.And amazingly you will find that this agrees with the rest of scripture. For example:
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.



Matt.36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.This from chapter 12. This is words of acknowledging God before other men; have you spread the gospel.
Again, this is a description between a true believer and a non-believer. This is also proof of salvation first then works of the spirit in you afterward, which indicate that your faith is not dead....faith, salvation, then works and in that order.

I do not have a problem with that order; I have never suggested anything different. That does not however change the fact that those who receive Christ into their lives and have a relationship with Him are still judged and they are judged by their works. Not by their profession of faith. Only, I repeat only those who have the works are finally saved. And yes, I know, the works are the result of being born again, but they are still essential to gain entry into eternity.

Matt. 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.Are you telling me if a brother ask you forgiveness you would'nt do it? This is the mark of a Christian and the fruits of the spirit within you! This has nothing to do with the works that you seek!

You really do need to read the entire parable. The one who refused to forgive his servants debt was already saved! He was forgiven, freed completely of all indebtedness. Totally exonerated. Utterly loosed from all responsibilty. He was a Christian, yet refused to carry out the example set by His Saviour.

Matt. 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not a wedding garment.
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.This is a typical illustration of seperating the sheep from the goats or the wheat from the tares, meaning the saved from the un-saved which happens during judgement. This has nothing to do with the works that you seek!

Allow me to quote Matthew Henry who says it much better than I, and note how he explains that sanctification is just as essential to our ultimate salvation as is justification.

The provision made for perishing souls in the gospel, is represented by a royal feast made by a king, with eastern liberality, on the marriage of his son. Our merciful God has not only provided food, but a royal feast, for the perishing souls of his rebellious creatures. There is enough and to spare, of every thing that can add to our present comfort and everlasting happiness, in the salvation of his Son Jesus Christ. — The guests first invited were the Jews. When the prophets of the Old Testament did not prevail, nor John the Baptist, nor Christ himself, who told them the kingdom of God was at hand, the apostles and ministers of the gospel were sent, after Christ’s resurrection, to tell them it was come, and to persuade them to accept the offer. The reason why sinners do not come to Christ and salvation by him, is, not because they cannot, but because they will not. Making light of Christ, and of the great salvation accomplished by him, is the damning sin of the world. They were careless. Multitudes perish for ever through mere carelessness, who show no direct aversion, but are careless concerning their souls. Also the business and profit of worldly employments hinder many in closing with the Saviour. Both farmers and merchants must be diligent; but whatever we have of the world in our hands, our care must be to keep it out of our hearts, lest it come between us and Christ. — The utter ruin coming upon the Jewish church and nation, is here represented. Persecution of Christ’s faithful ministers fills up the measure of guilt of any people. The offer of Christ and salvation to the Gentiles was not expected; it was such a surprise as it would be to wayfaring men, to be invited to a royal wedding feast. The design of the gospel is to gather souls to Christ; all the children of God scattered abroad. {#Joh 10:16 11:52} The case of hypocrites is represented by the guest that did not have a wedding garment on. It concerns all to prepare for the scrutiny; and those, and those only, who put on the Lord Jesus, who have a Christian temper of mind, who live by faith in Christ, and to whom he is all in all, have the wedding garment. The imputed righteousness of Christ, and the sanctification of the Spirit, are both alike necessary. No man has the wedding garment by nature, or can form it for himself. The day is coming, when hypocrites will be called to account for all their presumptuous intruding into gospel ordinances, and usurpation of gospel privileges. Take him away. Those who walk unworthy of Christianity, forfeit all the happiness they presumptuously claimed. — Our Saviour here passes out of the parable into what it teaches. Hypocrites go by the light of the gospel itself down to utter darkness. Many are called to the wedding feast, that is, to salvation, but few have the wedding garment, the righteousness of Christ, the sanctification of the Spirit. Then let us examine ourselves whether we are in the faith, and seek to be approved by the King.



Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Yes, works of the spirit in you that prove you are a Christian and saved. Remember Jesus said: " If you are in me and I in you, you will produce much fruit but without me you can do nothing". So, the works come after faith and salvation and not the other way around. Remember Ephesians says that: " You are save through faith in grace, it is a gift and not of your works."

Exactly my point, and I thank you for agreeing with me. Finally you see that we are judged by our works and if we do not have them we are cast out and burnt just as Jesus described.


Seems to me that in every example above that salvation was conditional, not on anyones' acceptance of Christ, but on their works subsequent to their acceptance of Christ.You are so wrong and do not support the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ!

Excuse me? Just above you agreed with me that we are judged by our works that come after faith and justification. Now you when I repeat that we are judged by works subsequent to our acceptance of Christ I am wrong? It seems to me you have only a superficial understanding of the gospel.
In the OT the sanctuary services were the gospel for Israel. They typified what Christ did in person. The very first act in the service was to sacrifice the lamb. This typified Christ's sacrifice on calvary, right? I am sure you understand that. However, that was only the first stage of salvation!!! The blood needed to be taken into the sanctuary and presented before the presence of God. In between the altar were other items of furniture all essential to the final salvation of the penitent sinner, furniture that represented different aspects of Christ's ministry and all essential that we partake in each one. The sacrifice alone was not sufficient to see the sinner into the kingdom.
The sanctuary has justification, (the altar of sacrifice), sanctification (the laver , table of showbread, and the candles, and altar of incense) and glorification ( the Most Holy Place and ark of the Covenant which was entered into only once a year). All essential aspects to our ultimate entrance into glory and all representing different aspects of the Christian walk, including works of righteousness and obedience without which we will not make it.
 
Good job, brakelite.

Wonderful answers. And you didn't have to misquote scripture to make your points clear, brakelite. Always a pleasure to read your posts.
It'll be interesting to see how he responds to all that truth.
 
Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


1Co_3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Everything we do must be as unto Him ! other wise it worthless!

Many works are worthless !Still once born again we have eternal life !

salvation is a free gift!


Rom_5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom_5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Rom_5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

What works did those in hell He freed do?
What works does a child do?
What works do those on the death bed do?

faith without works is dead! Faith takes a action!
We do too at salvation and that is all we need for eternal life!
We confess with our mouth and believe in our heart!

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Gal_3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The more we live though our spirit? The more we hear our LORD and can be used by Him more perfectly!

We are building up treasures in heaven!
We are never judged in the eternal by our works only rewarded!

We are judged by the Law of Liberty in the eternal !
We judge the world and the fallen angels! we are GODS Priests forever more !

Jas_1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


Jas_2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

2Pe_2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.


WE care in No bondage we live by Faith and LOVE!
Mankind wants to control us and use us!

We serve only our LORD and Follow only Him !


Our relationship with our Father God is One on One forever more has nothing to do with others or pastors or religions !
We hear his voice and follow Only Him !
 
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