It's only fair to represent the other side as well.
The Charismatics say before the rapture/resurrection we can't see everything clearly, as Paul says, "now I see in part."
But after the rapture/resurrection as Paul says, " but then shall I know..."
Pentecostal Christians worldwide under the baptize of the Holy Spirit
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It's only fair to represent the other side as well.
The Charismatics say before the rapture/resurrection we can't see everything clearly, as Paul says, "now I see in part."
But after the rapture/resurrection as Paul says, " but then shall I know..."
This is one of the very few times that I've seen a solid Scriptural foundation in major doctrine for both sides.
Curtis
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You are just assuming something that some man doctrine came up with to try and discount why they are not seeing any manifestations of what Jesus said would follow those who believe.
Well now Curtis, the Charismatic movement that got underway in the early 1900's got it's roots from the mid 1800's and is a very new thing in relation to Christianity. One could say the same of your doctrine!
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I am not charismatic, or Pentecostal I am just part of the body of Christ that simply believes what Jesus and what the scriptures say, and teach. My doctrine does not come from me.
Oh, but Curtis, my doctrine does come from me, right!
Don't play these games with me, this is not my first rodeo.
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Where do you think it comes from?
I have no problems with you speaking in tongues, praying in tongues.
I take offence at the "the baptism of the Holy spirit is for everyone part."
The charismatic version of "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is not even a baptism.
They have robbed the Word of God by calling it a baptism.
That's what burns in my gut!
Curtis, before the Charismatic Movement began in the very early 1900's, the baptism of the Holy Spirit was agreed by the theologians of old as the baptism into Christ as Paul stated it.
Only John the Baptist speaks of it, "the baptism of the Holy Spirit." nowhere in Acts will you see "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" said. It's always a filling or a receiving. It's not a baptism! Paul plainly said there is only one baptism. Let me show it to you.
When John the Baptist said it he was referring to what Paul called, "baptism into Christ" the spiritual baptism at the very moment of salvation.
Here is where Paul explains it in Col. 2:10-13,
"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
This is the one and only baptism that Paul refers to.
Curtis
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I would say those old theologians did not search the scriptures very well.
Jesus said just before his ascension…..
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
He definitely was not talking about salvation because he had already breathed the Holy Spirit on them days earlier.
Joh 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
Never trust old theologians only the Word of God!
He was speaking of the Holy Spirit coming in a new dimension, indwelling man which was not possible before Christ was glorified after dying on the Cross and rising from the dead.
What happened at Pentecost and the disciples baptized with the Holy Spirit, was just that, the Holy Spirit coming to permanently dwell in man. That entrance of the Holy Spirit was accompanied by speaking in tongues which was a proof for all the people of all languages present. They all heard the language of their own, saying to one another,
Acts 2:7-8
"And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"
The tongues were a sign for all the people of different languages that what was happening was real.
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The day of Pentecost was not the birth of the Church it was enduring the Church with power to do the work of the ministry as Jesus said….
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Never trust old theologians.
Oh no it wasn't! It was the Holy Spirit now entering man permanently for the first time since Christ had been glorified after His death and resurrection.
John 7:39
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
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Jesus had already died and resurrected when he breathed on them the Holy Spirit.
If you want to call that the beginning of the Church, that's fine with me.
What has that to do with our topic?
Curtis, you do know that the Holy Spirit could not come and dwell permanently in man until Christ had purged our sins?
The Old Testament saints never had the permanent dwelling of the Holy Spirit as we have now, He would come and go but could not dwell permanently in man until the Cross.
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Thats right but Jesus had already died and resin from the dead when he breathed upon his disciples to "receive the Holy Spirit"
The baptism of the Holy Spirit which Jesus said to his followers would happen to them on the day of Pentecost was going to come from His Father as Jesus proclaimed.
Luke 24:49 "I am going to send you what my Father has promised. But for now, stay in the city. Stay there until you have received power from heaven."
Then we have this scripture which I find very interesting......
John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
The Father gives life to whoever he desires and the Son also gives life to ever he desires.
Jesus breathing upon his disciples was giving eternal life to them, but they still needed the power to complete their mission and that is what the Father gave on the day of Pentecost.
I agree the Holy Spirit gave them the power they needed to accomplish their mission.
But let's get to the purpose of the tongues on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
Pentecost was a feast that took place 50 days after the Passover. Jews from all over the Roman Empire came to Jerusalem to celebrate this feast. They came from countries that spoke different languages, but they all had one thing in common, they were all Jews.
I think we can agree that tongues are a sign to the unbelieving, as Paul said.
1 Cor. 14:22
"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
The tongues on the day of Pentecost was for the Jews who came from all over the world to Jerusalem on Pentecost. It was a sign for them to know that what was taking place was real. Some 3,000 Jews were saved that day at Pentecost and the sign of the tongues is what made it possible.
When the Holy Spirit fell on these disciples and they began to speak in tongues for a sign to the unbelieving Jews, what was really taking place was the grand entrance of the Holy Spirit to indwell man permanently. This was the fulfillment of the promise of Christ.
John 14:16-17
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
This is what happened at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came to dwell in man, to make his home in the soul and spirit of man. This was not possible for the Old Testament saints. Christ had not yet paid the sin debt.
The tongues were only a sign to the Jews who spoke different languages. Pentecost is not about a baptism of tongues, It's about the Holy Spirit coming and immersing/baptizing man in a new dimension to be with him forever.
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Tongues are not only for unbelievers but also for believers.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Believers who are born again and filled with the Spirit do not need any kind of sign as they are already acquainted with speaking in tongues.
Notice: prophesying is not a sign to those who believe not but to those who believe!
1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Co 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
Tongues with interpretation is prophesying and the "unbeliever" secrets of his heart are made manifest and he will fall down on his face, worship God, and report that God is truly in you!
1Co 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
Notice: he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues UNLESS he interprets the message that was spoken in tongues.
Tongues with interpretation are equal to prophesying!
How can an unbeliever have his heart exposed unless there is tongues and interpretation? The Holy Spirit is the only one who knows what is in the heart of a person. Speaking in tongues is a person's spirit speaking by the Holy Spirit who knows all things.
Of course, if you do not believe in speaking in tongues or any of the gifts of Spirit you will never see this happen in your Church so in a sense yep you are right these thing have passed away, but only to you and those you fellowship with.
Speaking in tongues with interpretation is for both believers and unbelievers! Praying in tongues to God is for all believers who believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
