Pretribulation Rapture?

[Jonathan_Gale]

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Literally speaking, Rome is known as the city of seven hills. The Vatican sits on one side of the Tiber River, facing the seven hills.

But the Babylon in Revelation 18:1-24 is described as the center of trade and surrounded by seas so that when this Babylon has fallen, the merchants of the sea are standing afar off because of the plagues. That is not Rome or the Vatican.

This Babylon or the daughter of Babylon, is USA as it is responsible for spreading the spiritual fornication from the Vatican in most of the churches and from there, into all nations, media wise while being the center of trade.

The focus on the " spirit " and tongues for "private use" will unite world's religions, idolatries, and the occult into that one world church after the rapture event.

It will be then when left behind surviving Christians may see & repent while new believers will avoid it altogether while on the run for their lives from the beast waging war on them to kill them with the sword & with hunger since they cannot buy nor sell without the mark to survive the coming New World Order for the rest of the 2/3rds parts of the world that did not get burned up with that third of the world, the western hemisphere in Revelation 8:7.

OK, stick to your wild conspiracy if that’s what you want. As soon as you bring the name USA into bible interpretation, you lose your credibility. You’ve traded sound teaching for fables and rumors. The only role the good ole US of A gets to play is bless - and curse - Israel who will ultimately fulfill bible prophecy. In other words, America only facilitates Israel to fulfill its destiny.

 

[GodB4Us]

OK, stick to your wild conspiracy if that’s what you want. As soon as you bring the name USA into bible interpretation, you lose your credibility. You’ve traded sound teaching for fables and rumors. The only role the good ole US of A gets to play is bless - and curse - Israel who will ultimately fulfill bible prophecy. In other words, America only facilitates Israel to fulfill its destiny.

Like it or not, one third of the earth will get burned up per Revelation 8:7. Is it a coincidence that the western hemisphere is one third of the earth? Is it also a coincidence that USA is not around to help for why Jesus is coming as the King of kings to the rescue Jerusalem at the end of the great tribulation?

That is why I assign Revelation 18:1-24 to USA as that Babylon, "We the people", and not the Vatican which is the other Babylon, the ***** that sits on 7 mountains using Babylon USA to corrupt the nations by her spiritual fornication.

But since we prophesy in part and know in part, we will know the truth one day when we see Him face to face.

As it is, best ask Jesus Christ to help you prove everything by His words as kept in the KJV so you may be found abiding in Him and His words as well as being willing to go to leave your life behind when the Bridegroom comes. Otherwise...

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Like it or not, one third of the earth will get burned up per Revelation 8:7. Is it a coincidence that the western hemisphere is one third of the earth? Is it also a coincidence that USA is not around to help for why Jesus is coming as the King of kings to the rescue Jerusalem at the end of the great tribulation?

That is why I assign Revelation 18:1-24 to USA as that Babylon, "We the people", and not the Vatican which is the other Babylon, the ***** that sits on 7 mountains using Babylon USA to corrupt the nations by her spiritual fornication.

But since we prophesy in part and know in part, we will know the truth one day when we see Him face to face.

As it is, best ask Jesus Christ to help you prove everything by His words as kept in the KJV so you may be found abiding in Him and His words as well as being willing to go to leave your life behind when the Bridegroom comes. Otherwise...

Yes, it is a coincidence. "Western hemisphere" is never mentioned anywhere. Besides, In Revelation 8:7 it's just a third of the earch scorched, but guess what, in 16:8-9, ALL MEN are scorched. This much is very clear as the bowls are poured out on both earth and sea. That's the whole planet, and that's prior to Rev. 18:1-24. You assign that to the USA because that's all you know, your tunnel vision has hindered you to see it from a global prospective. I don't have the whole truth as well, but the apocalypse is absolutely gonna be global, not just the USA.

 

[GodB4Us]

Yes, it is a coincidence. "Western hemisphere" is never mentioned anywhere. Besides, In Revelation 8:7 it's just a third of the earch scorched, but guess what, in 16:8-9, ALL MEN are scorched. This much is very clear as the bowls are poured out on both earth and sea. That's the whole planet, and that's prior to Rev. 18:1-24. You assign that to the USA because that's all you know, your tunnel vision has hindered you to see it from a global prospective. I don't have the whole truth as well, but the apocalypse is absolutely gonna be global, not just the USA.

Well, we agree to disagree. Time will tell as the day is drawing closer.

 

[Bill]

Well, we agree to disagree. Time will tell as the day is drawing closer.

Okay so like I asked you before one will you know without a shadow of a doubt that the day has come and gone when the Rapture should have been for the free tribulation Rapture should have been

Just tell me what's the next thing what significant moment is going to take place after the free tribulation goes into effect just one thing I mean is that the great day of the Lord. This will happen about 6 or 9 months before the Great Tribulation goes into effect so is a pre-tribulation Rapture going to happen then or are we going to see the great day of the Lord first and then it's going to happen after that and if it goes into the Great Tribulation then what's going to be the excuse after that

 

[GodB4Us]

Okay so like I asked you before one will you know without a shadow of a doubt that the day has come and gone when the Rapture should have been for the free tribulation Rapture should have been

Just tell me what's the next thing what significant moment is going to take place after the free tribulation goes into effect just one thing I mean is that the great day of the Lord. This will happen about 6 or 9 months before the Great Tribulation goes into effect so is a pre-tribulation Rapture going to happen then or are we going to see the great day of the Lord first and then it's going to happen after that and if it goes into the Great Tribulation then what's going to be the excuse after that

He will come like a thief in the night, but when He does appear, all nations shall see Him at the rapture event and then the first angel will spread the everlasting gospel to all the world ad then the end will come as in the end of the world as we know it when Babylon USA along with a third of the earth gets burned up, setting the stage for the coming new world order and the mark of the beast system for why the third angel warns everyone that if they take the mark to buy & sell, they will go to the lake of fire no matter what. Those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.

With USA gone, the world will have a peace treaty with Israel to keep them from launching their nukes by giving them permission to build the third Temple in Jerusalem. Once the command is given out to start rebuilding the Temple is the beginning of the seven year great tribulation. Those left behind saints that survive in the other 2/3rds parts of the world along with new believers will be running for their lives as the beast wages warn on them with the sword and hunger since they cannot buy nor sell to survive in the New World Order.

That is why He is warning saved believers now in these latter days to be ready or else in a time when the cares of this life can be a snare to believers that they will not want to leave when the Bridegroom comes Luke 21:33-36

Hardly anything about life can be tempting as a snare for a believer during the great tribulation nor can it take them unaware when the world's armies know when to start marching unto Jerusalem because they know He is coming at the end of the 7 year to establish His kingdom on earth. He can't be coming as a thief in the night then.

The time to go before that throne of grace and trust Jesus Christ as your Personal Good Shepherd & Friend to help you get ready by abiding in Him & His words as well as being willing to go, free from the snares of this life, at any moment for when the Bridegroom will come, is now. So go ask Jesus Christ today.

 

[Bill]

You said
"He will come like a thief in the night, but when He does appear, all nations shall see Him at the rapture event and then the first angel will spread the everlasting gospel to all the world ad then the end will come as in the end of the world as we know it when Babylon USA along with a third of the earth gets burned up, setting the stage for the coming new world order and the mark of the beast system for why the third angel warns everyone that if they take the mark to buy & sell, they will go to the lake of fire no matter what. Those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.


But if the end of the world came first how would there be a new world order? Send the New World Order come before the end of the world?

"With USA gone, the world will have a peace treaty with Israel to keep them from launching their nukes by giving them permission to build the third Temple in Jerusalem. Once the command is given out to start rebuilding the Temple is the beginning of the seven year great tribulation. Those left behind saints that survive in the other 2/3rds parts of the world along with new believers will be running for their lives as the beast wages warn on them with the sword and hunger since they cannot buy nor sell to survive in the New World Order."

That is terribly funny. Do you really think the Arabs / Muslims care one ioda about any peace treaty with Israel where it comes to building a temple ontop of thier Holiest sight ?

With Biden in office, Israel is already open season , they are on thier own .

Israel has gotten soft in thier faith to God , even now.

The beast will wage war on all God's children . You will be here too.

"That is why He is warning saved believers now in these latter days to be ready or else in a time when the cares of this life can be a snare to believers that they will not want to leave when the Bridegroom comes Luke 21:33-36"

The business about being ready is not about excaping to la la land, its about being ready to walk through the fires with singing and rejoicing.

"Hardly anything about life can be tempting as a snare for a believer during the great tribulation nor can it take them unaware when the world's armies know when to start marching unto Jerusalem because they know He is coming at the end of the 7 year to establish His kingdom on earth. He can't be coming as a thief in the night then."

Well there is some horse hockey.

I bet you never read , the deception of the devil will be so great as to decieve even the elect.

You Christians can consider yourselves among the elect. But be careful, as pride walks very closely to those who deem themselves to be of this status.

The ONLY moment you will be taken up, is at Jesus return

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

That is terribly funny. Do you really think the Arabs / Muslims care one ioda about any peace treaty with Israel where it comes to building a temple ontop of thier Holiest sight ?

All of these stuffs originated from the dispensationalists' misinterpretation of Daniel 9:27. This critical prophecy should've been completely fulfilled by Jesus - in his FIRST coming; He was the one who made the new covenant with many (Matt. 26:28). However, they mistake him for the Antichrist, and that opens a big can of worms and bring forth a whole string of ramifications - a gap of the entire church age between the 69th and the 70th week (or shemitah cycle), a third temple, resuming animal sacrifice, seven year treaty and tribulation, betrayal at the midpoint, etc. That's a script for a political thriller, none of these stuffs is remotely implied in the Scripture.

It's really a shame, you know. Dispensationalism is the most legit denomination as far as I'm concerned, they stick to the bible, support Israel, preach end times prophecy, expose the evil of globalism, and most importantly, they know the right way to read the bible, which is, read the OT references in every section of the NT, and read the foreshadowing of Jesus in every section of the OT. I really admire them. They have such god given wisdom to interpret current event through the lens of the Scripture, which I've never found in any body else. Even their title, dispensationalism, is not totally erroneous, since history was definitely divided into difference periods, and even Jesus talked about "this age" and "the age to come", the problem is that they use that as a marketing tool and they have subtly changed God's character to make it fit into different "dispensations". The biggest error of all is this "imminent sudden disappearance" and this fictional version of political drama in the middle east.

 

[GodB4Us]

You said
"He will come like a thief in the night, but when He does appear, all nations shall see Him at the rapture event and then the first angel will spread the everlasting gospel to all the world ad then the end will come as in the end of the world as we know it when Babylon USA along with a third of the earth gets burned up, setting the stage for the coming new world order and the mark of the beast system for why the third angel warns everyone that if they take the mark to buy & sell, they will go to the lake of fire no matter what. Those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.


But if the end of the world came first how would there be a new world order? Send the New World Order come before the end of the world?

The world you know of now will end and the world where the only means to survive is by the mark of the beast to buy or sell will begin.

"With USA gone, the world will have a peace treaty with Israel to keep them from launching their nukes by giving them permission to build the third Temple in Jerusalem. Once the command is given out to start rebuilding the Temple is the beginning of the seven year great tribulation. Those left behind saints that survive in the other 2/3rds parts of the world along with new believers will be running for their lives as the beast wages warn on them with the sword and hunger since they cannot buy nor sell to survive in the New World Order."

That is terribly funny. Do you really think the Arabs / Muslims care one ioda about any peace treaty with Israel where it comes to building a temple ontop of thier Holiest sight ?

Archeologists discover that the original site of the Temple can be built regardless of the Dome of the Rock because the Dome of the Rock is in the outer courts of the Gentiles in relation to the site of the actual Temple which Biblical prophesy does foretold.

Revelation 11:1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

With Biden in office, Israel is already open season , they are on thier own .

Israel has gotten soft in thier faith to God , even now.

The beast will wage war on all God's children . You will be here too.

"That is why He is warning saved believers now in these latter days to be ready or else in a time when the cares of this life can be a snare to believers that they will not want to leave when the Bridegroom comes Luke 21:33-36"

The business about being ready is not about excaping to la la land, its about being ready to walk through the fires with singing and rejoicing.

Because of the falling away from the faith in these latter days a few will escape but most believers that ae not ready will as found in unrepentant iniquity shall be left behind to be resurrected later after the great tribulation.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Do note in verse 34 by how the world we live in now can be a snare to saved believers whereas that is hardly a description for the casual life of the believers during the great tribulation.
Do note that the end result of the escape provided is to stand before the Son of Man in verse 36.

"Hardly anything about life can be tempting as a snare for a believer during the great tribulation nor can it take them unaware when the world's armies know when to start marching unto Jerusalem because they know He is coming at the end of the 7 year to establish His kingdom on earth. He can't be coming as a thief in the night then."

Well there is some horse hockey.

I bet you never read , the deception of the devil will be so great as to decieve even the elect.

You paraphrased scripture and out of context by applying it to the rapture event. Here is the deception that can fool the very elect.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Saved believers go to places where he movement of the "spirit" is at thinking they will get closer to God that way, feeling the Holy Spirit falling on them bringing signs and lying wonders like another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or by that sign of tongues, others seek proof of salvation at the altar for why they are praying for salvation rather than believing the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead are saved.

It doesn't stop there. They go to places like Toronto's Blessings where they say they do not need the word of God any more, all they need is the Spirit, Then there is that Pensacola Outpouring, as well as slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement and even the former Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where he would announce the falling of the Holy Spirit on believers in causing them to fall backwards for miracles to come about be it a healing or a casting out of devils.

That is the deception that fools the very elect for how they fall for this deception in more ways than one. Matthew 7:21-27

You Christians can consider yourselves among the elect. But be careful, as pride walks very closely to those who deem themselves to be of this status.

Christians has been led astray by Billy Graham; both Catholics and Protestant, as they answer the call of "if you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ." as opposed to the gospel message he had preached earlier that it is all those that call upon the name of the Lord that shall be saved. It is no wonder why Billy Graham doubted he would be received by Jesus Christ because he judged himself by that commitment for he was not always a good Christian.

Tony Snow Interviews Billy Graham Show: FOX NEWS SUNDAY Date: January 2, 2000

"
SNOW: When you get to Heaven, who's going to speak first, you or God?

GRAHAM: When I get there, I'm sure that Jesus is going to say that he
will welcome me. But I think that he's going to say: Well done, our good
and faithful servant. Or he may say: You're in the wrong place.

SNOW: You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place?

GRAHAM: Yes, because I have not -- I'm not a righteous man. People put
me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they
think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think
I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a
saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much." ~~~ end of quote

No one will be justified by trying to keep that commitment in order to gain assurance of salvation and so they might as well ask Jesus to forgive them and set them free from such commitments and promises to rest in Him and His word to us that He will help us to follow Him when we trust Him to do it as our Good Shepherd & Friend.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure
....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The ONLY moment you will be taken up, is at Jesus return

That will only happen as the Bridegroom coming for the abiding bride of Christ for the Marriage Supper in Heaven. The many dead that are worthy and the few living abiding in Him as His disciples, will be changed and meet the Lord in the air to be forever with the Lord.

When He comes back as the King of kings with the saints per Zechariah 14:1-5, He is touching down on the Mount of Olives to defeat the world's armies and to put Satan in the pit for a thousand years and then He resurrected those saints left behind with former believers and the new believers after the rapture event that went through the great tribulation and that had died.

Those saints being resurrected after the great tribulation are not meeting the Lord in the air, when He is already on earth having defeated the world's armies with Satan in the pit for a thousand years. Revelation 20:1-6

So leave the Catholic Church, and go to Jesus Christ for your rest that you are saved and trust Him to help you be ready to be free from all commitments and man made bondages as you lean on Him to be your Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son and be willing to go in leaving your life & YOUR TREASURES behind. Luke 17:26-36

Keep your eyes on the Son in coming to God the Father because those who broaden the way in the worship place in coming to the Father Matthew 7:13-14 are in error for worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son as well as the "blessed Trinity" when God the Father provided only one way to come to Him and that is the Son John 14:6 and not to climb up any other way John 10:1 because there is only one way to honor the Father & that is by ONLY honoring the Son John 5:22-23 God the Father is glorified in His Son as there is no other way Philippians 2:5-11 John 13:31-32 So strive ye to enter thru that straight gate or risk being left behind as Luke 13:24-30 warns of that iniquity.

So yeah.. it is really bad now for why God has to come and judge His House first as the Bridegroom at the pre-great tribulation rapture event for why He is warning the churches in Revelation to repent or else, but He is faithful in keeping the souls of His saints that gets left behind that will suffer the fire on the third of the earth as well as the coming great tribulation as a result.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

[Bill]

The world you know of now will end and the world where the only means to survive is by the mark of the beast to buy or sell will begin.

Archeologists discover that the original site of the Temple can be built regardless of the Dome of the Rock because the Dome of the Rock is in the outer courts of the Gentiles in relation to the site of the actual Temple which Biblical prophesy does foretold.

Revelation 11:1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Because of the falling away from the faith in these latter days a few will escape but most believers that ae not ready will as found in unrepentant iniquity shall be left behind to be resurrected later after the great tribulation.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Do note in verse 34 by how the world we live in now can be a snare to saved believers whereas that is hardly a description for the casual life of the believers during the great tribulation.
Do note that the end result of the escape provided is to stand before the Son of Man in verse 36.

You paraphrased scripture and out of context by applying it to the rapture event. Here is the deception that can fool the very elect.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Saved believers go to places where he movement of the "spirit" is at thinking they will get closer to God that way, feeling the Holy Spirit falling on them bringing signs and lying wonders like another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or by that sign of tongues, others seek proof of salvation at the altar for why they are praying for salvation rather than believing the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead are saved.

It doesn't stop there. They go to places like Toronto's Blessings where they say they do not need the word of God any more, all they need is the Spirit, Then there is that Pensacola Outpouring, as well as slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement and even the former Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where he would announce the falling of the Holy Spirit on believers in causing them to fall backwards for miracles to come about be it a healing or a casting out of devils.

That is the deception that fools the very elect for how they fall for this deception in more ways than one. Matthew 7:21-27

Christians has been led astray by Billy Graham; both Catholics and Protestant, as they answer the call of "if you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ." as opposed to the gospel message he had preached earlier that it is all those that call upon the name of the Lord that shall be saved. It is no wonder why Billy Graham doubted he would be received by Jesus Christ because he judged himself by that commitment for he was not always a good Christian.

Tony Snow Interviews Billy Graham Show: FOX NEWS SUNDAY Date: January 2, 2000

"
SNOW: When you get to Heaven, who's going to speak first, you or God?

GRAHAM: When I get there, I'm sure that Jesus is going to say that he
will welcome me. But I think that he's going to say: Well done, our good
and faithful servant. Or he may say: You're in the wrong place.

SNOW: You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place?

GRAHAM: Yes, because I have not -- I'm not a righteous man. People put
me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they
think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think
I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a
saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much." ~~~ end of quote

No one will be justified by trying to keep that commitment in order to gain assurance of salvation and so they might as well ask Jesus to forgive them and set them free from such commitments and promises to rest in Him and His word to us that He will help us to follow Him when we trust Him to do it as our Good Shepherd & Friend.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure
....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


That will only happen as the Bridegroom coming for the abiding bride of Christ for the Marriage Supper in Heaven. The many dead that are worthy and the few living abiding in Him as His disciples, will be changed and meet the Lord in the air to be forever with the Lord.

When He comes back as the King of kings with the saints per Zechariah 14:1-5, He is touching down on the Mount of Olives to defeat the world's armies and to put Satan in the pit for a thousand years and then He resurrected those saints left behind with former believers and the new believers after the rapture event that went through the great tribulation and that had died.

Those saints being resurrected after the great tribulation are not meeting the Lord in the air, when He is already on earth having defeated the world's armies with Satan in the pit for a thousand years. Revelation 20:1-6

So leave the Catholic Church, and go to Jesus Christ for your rest that you are saved and trust Him to help you be ready to be free from all commitments and man made bondages as you lean on Him to be your Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son and be willing to go in leaving your life & YOUR TREASURES behind. Luke 17:26-36

Keep your eyes on the Son in coming to God the Father because those who broaden the way in the worship place in coming to the Father Matthew 7:13-14 are in error for worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son as well as the "blessed Trinity" when God the Father provided only one way to come to Him and that is the Son John 14:6 and not to climb up any other way John 10:1 because there is only one way to honor the Father & that is by ONLY honoring the Son John 5:22-23 God the Father is glorified in His Son as there is no other way Philippians 2:5-11 John 13:31-32 So strive ye to enter thru that straight gate or risk being left behind as Luke 13:24-30 warns of that iniquity.

So yeah.. it is really bad now for why God has to come and judge His House first as the Bridegroom at the pre-great tribulation rapture event for why He is warning the churches in Revelation to repent or else, but He is faithful in keeping the souls of His saints that gets left behind that will suffer the fire on the third of the earth as well as the coming great tribulation as a result.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Finally , you answered my question . So you believe that the pre trib rapture will come just before the mark of the beast .

So now When the Mark of the beast takes place, and you dont go on the joy ride to heaven , what then.

And by the way , what about your spouse, if you are married. What will you do if you see she is left behind . Are you going to say, see you next time sucka . Lol or will you have the guts to ask the Lord, i will stay to help my wife.

Will you leave if some of your children are stuck behind , what about infants, who are innocent yet have not recieved Jesus as Lord and Savior. I guess they are not good enough for the escape plan

The whole Rapture Theory is so selfish I can't even understand how the preachers ever keep pushing it

 

[Bill]

PreTribulation Rapture, Satan's biggest and best lie yet. And you followers of it are all in lock step

Heil Hitler. Might as well get used to it cuz they did the lock step too

 

[Dave M]

All of these stuffs originated from the dispensationalists' misinterpretation of Daniel 9:27. This critical prophecy should've been completely fulfilled by Jesus - in his FIRST coming; He was the one who made the new covenant with many (Matt. 26:28). However, they mistake him for the Antichrist, and that opens a big can of worms and bring forth a whole string of ramifications - a gap of the entire church age between the 69th and the 70th week (or shemitah cycle), a third temple, resuming animal sacrifice, seven year treaty and tribulation, betrayal at the midpoint, etc. That's a script for a political thriller, none of these stuffs is remotely implied in the Scripture.

It's really a shame, you know. Dispensationalism is the most legit denomination as far as I'm concerned, they stick to the bible, support Israel, preach end times prophecy, expose the evil of globalism, and most importantly, they know the right way to read the bible, which is, read the OT references in every section of the NT, and read the foreshadowing of Jesus in every section of the OT. I really admire them. They have such god given wisdom to interpret current event through the lens of the Scripture, which I've never found in any body else. Even their title, dispensationalism, is not totally erroneous, since history was definitely divided into difference periods, and even Jesus talked about "this age" and "the age to come", the problem is that they use that as a marketing tool and they have subtly changed God's character to make it fit into different "dispensations". The biggest error of all is this "imminent sudden disappearance" and this fictional version of political drama in the middle east.

@Jonathan_Gale this is good I really like what you said here. I would imagine you have studied much. The Daniel timeline they speak about seems so complicated to me I just could never understand it, I would love to hear more of you insight on that being already fulfilled. I always felt that but could never get a grasp either way.

would also like to hear your thoughts on Isreal being Isreal and the church being the church and separate.

maybe I should start a new thread if this topic, but it seems to on topic in an indirect way, the pre-trib relies on people separating Israel and the church and daniels timeline.

 

[GodB4Us]

Finally , you answered my question . So you believe that the pre trib rapture will come just before the mark of the beast .

So now When the Mark of the beast takes place, and you dont go on the joy ride to heaven , what then.

And by the way , what about your spouse, if you are married. What will you do if you see she is left behind . Are you going to say, see you next time sucka . Lol or will you have the guts to ask the Lord, i will stay to help my wife.

Will you leave if some of your children are stuck behind , what about infants, who are innocent yet have not recieved Jesus as Lord and Savior. I guess they are not good enough for the escape plan

The whole Rapture Theory is so selfish I can't even understand how the preachers ever keep pushing it

Jesus said always be ready or else. So figure it out with Him why preachers are pushing it.

 

[Bill]

Jesus said always be ready or else. So figure it out with Him why preachers are pushing it.

I already know why preachers are pushing it it's because they've been deceived themselves

 

[GodB4Us]

I already know why preachers are pushing it it's because they've been deceived themselves

That would be like saying Jesus deceived them by warning them to be ready or else and so your judgment cannot be true.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

@Jonathan_Gale this is good I really like what you said here. I would imagine you have studied much. The Daniel timeline they speak about seems so complicated to me I just could never understand it, I would love to hear more of you insight on that being already fulfilled. I always felt that but could never get a grasp either way.

would also like to hear your thoughts on Isreal being Isreal and the church being the church and separate.

maybe I should start a new thread if this topic, but it seems to on topic in an indirect way, the pre-trib relies on people separating Israel and the church and daniels timeline.

Well this opens a big bag of worms. This 70 week prophecy is the only prophecy with a detailed timetable, and also one of the most difficult prophecies to decipher, the key to understand it hinges upon the identity of the “Messiah”, “people of the prince” and the “he” in 9:27.

Now there’re a Christian version and a Jewish version of this. In the Christian version, the 70 weeks is a whole package of 490 continuous years, and it was all fulfilled by Jesus and nobody else. In the first 7 weeks/49 years, Jews were permitted to return to the Holy Land; in the next 62 weeks/434 years, the second temple was rebuilt; at the beginning of the last week, Jesus was baptized, and he was to make the new covenant with many (Jeremiah 31, Matt. 26:28) through his blood; that was fulfilled three and half years later at Passover he was crucified, I.e. “cut off”, and that LEGALLY ended temple sacrificial system, I.e. “it is finished.” After that, three and a half years of Christian ministry in Jerusalem, which might have ended with the baptizing of Cornelius, the stoning of Stephen or the Damascus road. Then, the temple was to be destroyed, fulfilled at 68-70 AD, and until the second coming, forever desolate, no more temple building of worship.

In the Jewish version, though, is following a slightly different translation based on the original meaning of several key words. It goes as the following:

”Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the HOLY OF HOLIES. Now therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the PROPHETIC WORD to restore and build Jerusalem. Until AN ANNOINTED PRINCE (King Cyrus), there shall be seven weeks, and then sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. And after THE sixty-two weeks, AN ANNOINTED ONE (the last legitimate king of Israel) shall be cut off and no more; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and grain offering. And for the overspreading of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

The title “messiah” could be referring to any king or ruler, therefore it’s not necessarily pointing to Jesus. This 70 weeks encompass the entire Second Temple period, from its construction to its destruction. The first “Messiah the prince” was Cyrus, the second “Messiah” bring cut off was the last legit Jewish leader, likely King Agrippa, but ACTUALLY it should be Jesus, even though they didn't think so; and then the “prince” was general Titus whose army sacked Jerusalem. This period, or "this age", ended at 68-70 AD. According to some historic record, Titus didn’t really want to burn the city to the ground, so he did make such a “covenant” in an attempt to make peace, but his “people” overrode his authority and went for the burning and the looting of the temple, which went out of his control - “in the middle of the week”. Nonetheless, there’s no third temple, Antichrist or seven year tribulation in either version, just as Jesus mourned, that “you shall be desolate”, and “you shall see me no more.”

As for the separation of church and Israel, that’s just not true. God’s called out assembly is known as the Commonwealth of Israel instead of the “global body of Christ”, gentiles are grafted into Israel, not the other way around. The special treatment for Israel is that they be the LAST among all nations to receive the gospel and accept Jesus. They’ll worship the Antichrist, a revived king Solomon kind of figure as the son of David, by then the gentile church will all be dead and awaiting for resurrection. When Christ returns in glory, then they’ll finally see and proclaim, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!”, and that, is the REAL rapture - AFTER the mass resurrection, exactly as defined in 1 Cor. 15:51 (we shall not all sleep) and 1 Thess. 4:16 (the dead in Christ will rise FIRST). The pre-trib one is the removal of the Holy Spirit, hence the removal of God's true and faithful church among the gentiles (2 Thess. 2:7). That's not the kind of "rapture" that most dispensationalist pastors preached about.

 

[Bill]

That would be like saying Jesus deceived them by warning them to be ready or else and so your judgment cannot be true.

This is like me being John the Baptist saying make straight the way of the Lord and this is like you being the Pharisees saying I don't know what I'm talking about

 

[Brad Huber]

OK, stick to your wild conspiracy if that’s what you want. As soon as you bring the name USA into bible interpretation, you lose your credibility. You’ve traded sound teaching for fables and rumors. The only role the good ole US of A gets to play is bless - and curse - Israel who will ultimately fulfill bible prophecy. In other words, America only facilitates Israel to fulfill its destiny.

assuming too little from america is as bad as assuming too much, dont be like the pharisees who pre judge anyone who speaks slightly different, be skeptical, thats good, but also be open to being wrong about some things

 

[GodB4Us]

This is like me being John the Baptist saying make straight the way of the Lord and this is like you being the Pharisees saying I don't know what I'm talking about

And yet you had said in another thread that water baptism had nothing to do with obtaining salvation, did you not? Or did I misunderstood you?

I had agreed with you giving scriptures and pointed that the Catholic Catechism says otherwise that water baptism is necessary for salvation, remember?

From the thread of "Demonic Attack". Page 4 Post # 70

But there is something that you're missing and I think a lot of people Miss even if they do have the gifts of the Spirit and it it develops over time but what it is is that anyone who has the gifts of the Spirit but especially discernment can tell whether or not another person has the gifts of the Spirit or not.

The real God's gift of tongues is for speaking unto the people in their native tongue that the one speaking does not know 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 That is why His gift of tongues will come with interpretation in the assembly 1 Corinthians 12:7-12 If any one get a supernatural tongue that does not come with interpretation because it is gibberish nonsense, that is not the real God's gift of tongues, but the pagan tongue as found in the world and the occult. Shun that tongue.

No I want to point out one little thing because there's a lot of confusion in this little detail there's a lot of people that feel that you receive the gifts of the Spirit when you are baptized into the kingdom of God with the water baptism and that's not true.

I agree because the Gentiles heard the word ( and obviously believed the word ) and received the Holy Ghost before confessing Him, before coming forward, and way before water baptism. Acts 10:43-48 That is why Paul said he was not sent to water baptize but preach the gospel because it pleases God to save those who believe the preaching of the cross

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

But I should point out that the Catholic Catechism does believe water baptism is necessary for salvation as being one of the sacraments that Catholics are to do.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

The water baptism brings you into the body of Christ but the baptism of the holy spirit is for the mature Soul so to speak and I say it kind of tongue and cheek there because John the Baptist who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit was still a baby in the womb.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Water baptism does not do anything at all when it is the baptism with the Holy Ghost that is how a believer is baptized into one body. That is how being born again of the Spirit makes one become a son of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. ~~~~ end of reference to post # 70

So why are you hyping about the water baptism of John the Baptist's which is the water baptism of repentance for the remission of sins for how followers are known as disciples of John the Baptist's??

That is not what the water baptism in Jesus Christ's name is for because the remission of sins is obtained by believing in Jesus Christ and thus baptized with the Holy Ghost by Jesus Christ at their salvation.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. KJV

 

[Dave M]

Well this opens a big bag of worms. This 70 week prophecy is the only prophecy with a detailed timetable, and also one of the most difficult prophecies to decipher, the key to understand it hinges upon the identity of the “Messiah”, “people of the prince” and the “he” in 9:27.

Now there’re a Christian version and a Jewish version of this. In the Christian version, the 70 weeks is a whole package of 490 continuous years, and it was all fulfilled by Jesus and nobody else. In the first 7 weeks/49 years, Jews were permitted to return to the Holy Land; in the next 62 weeks/434 years, the second temple was rebuilt; at the beginning of the last week, Jesus was baptized, and he was to make the new covenant with many (Jeremiah 31, Matt. 26:28) through his blood; that was fulfilled three and half years later at Passover he was crucified, I.e. “cut off”, and that LEGALLY ended temple sacrificial system, I.e. “it is finished.” After that, three and a half years of Christian ministry in Jerusalem, which might have ended with the baptizing of Cornelius, the stoning of Stephen or the Damascus road. Then, the temple was to be destroyed, fulfilled at 68-70 AD, and until the second coming, forever desolate, no more temple building of worship.

In the Jewish version, though, is following a slightly different translation based on the original meaning of several key words. It goes as the following:

”Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the HOLY OF HOLIES. Now therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the PROPHETIC WORD to restore and build Jerusalem. Until AN ANNOINTED PRINCE (King Cyrus), there shall be seven weeks, and then sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. And after THE sixty-two weeks, AN ANNOINTED ONE (the last legitimate king of Israel) shall be cut off and no more; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and grain offering. And for the overspreading of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

The title “messiah” could be referring to any king or ruler, therefore it’s not necessarily pointing to Jesus. This 70 weeks encompass the entire Second Temple period, from its construction to its destruction. The first “Messiah the prince” was Cyrus, the second “Messiah” bring cut off was the last legit Jewish leader, likely King Agrippa, but ACTUALLY it should be Jesus, even though they didn't think so; and then the “prince” was general Titus whose army sacked Jerusalem. This period, or "this age", ended at 68-70 AD. According to some historic record, Titus didn’t really want to burn the city to the ground, so he did make such a “covenant” in an attempt to make peace, but his “people” overrode his authority and went for the burning and the looting of the temple, which went out of his control - “in the middle of the week”. Nonetheless, there’s no third temple, Antichrist or seven year tribulation in either version, just as Jesus mourned, that “you shall be desolate”, and “you shall see me no more.”

As for the separation of church and Israel, that’s just not true. God’s called out assembly is known as the Commonwealth of Israel instead of the “global body of Christ”, gentiles are grafted into Israel, not the other way around. The special treatment for Israel is that they be the LAST among all nations to receive the gospel and accept Jesus. They’ll worship the Antichrist, a revived king Solomon kind of figure as the son of David, by then the gentile church will all be dead and awaiting for resurrection. When Christ returns in glory, then they’ll finally see and proclaim, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!”, and that, is the REAL rapture - AFTER the mass resurrection, exactly as defined in 1 Cor. 15:51 (we shall not all sleep) and 1 Thess. 4:16 (the dead in Christ will rise FIRST). The pre-trib one is the removal of the Holy Spirit, hence the removal of God's true and faithful church among the gentiles (2 Thess. 2:7). That's not the kind of "rapture" that most dispensationalist pastors preached about.

thanks @Jonathan_Gale so much for this, I will look forward to digging in it