Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[complete]

If you read the whole of Isaiahs poetic prophecy, you'll see that he was talking of the 70 year exile to Babylon. It's not about the present day state of Israel or a third temple.


Thus says the Lord,
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:

For your sake I will send to Babylon
and break down all the bars,
and the shouting of the Chaldeans will be turned to lamentation.

Hello @Hekuran,

In another thread you spoke with exasperation against what you termed, 'futurists'. Would you please explain your approach to prophetic truth?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Hekuran]

I'm not sure my thoughts are well enough organised to give an explanation of my approach to prophetic truth.

For reading any part of the scriptures, we need to take seriously the time and place it was first written in. Who was writing? who were they writing to? what situation were they addressing? what response was the writer hoping for from his audience.

That kind of work doesn't need academic expertise, just a bit of thoughtful reading and sensitivity. All the prophecies in the Bible were addressed to a particular people at a particular time. Isaiah to Judah that had turned from God and was due to be sent into exile, Daniel to exiles, Jesus prophesied against a corrupt temple system that had rejected the Messiah, John the author of the Revelation to Christians who were facing persecution under the Roman emperor Domitian.

There is a huge amount we can learn from these prophecies, but in the vast majority of cases, they are not about us and our times. For example, Jesus prophecy of the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple was fulfilled in AD70. I think the flow of thought in each of the gospels bears that out.

I see fanciful interpretations of biblical prophecy that make it all about what is happening right now. But honestly I've been in churches hearing that stuff for 40 years and the 'experts' seem wildly inconsistent in their interpretations.

So I find no compelling evidence in the scripture for raptures and third temples.

I believe Jesus could return in glory before sunset today, or it could be way, way in the future.

The big themes in the prophecies I listed above seem to be, 'repent', 'endure suffering patiently', 'place your hope in God's promises'. That is what I hang on to.

 

[complete]

I'm not sure my thoughts are well enough organised to give an explanation of my approach to prophetic truth.

For reading any part of the scriptures, we need to take seriously the time and place it was first written in. Who was writing? who were they writing to? what situation were they addressing? what response was the writer hoping for from his audience.

That kind of work doesn't need academic expertise, just a bit of thoughtful reading and sensitivity. All the prophecies in the Bible were addressed to a particular people at a particular time. Isaiah to Judah that had turned from God and was due to be sent into exile, Daniel to exiles, Jesus prophesied against a corrupt temple system that had rejected the Messiah, John the author of the Revelation to Christians who were facing persecution under the Roman emperor Domitian.

There is a huge amount we can learn from these prophecies, but in the vast majority of cases, they are not about us and our times. For example, Jesus prophecy of the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple was fulfilled in AD70. I think the flow of thought in each of the gospels bears that out.

I see fanciful interpretations of biblical prophecy that make it all about what is happening right now. But honestly I've been in churches hearing that stuff for 40 years and the 'experts' seem wildly inconsistent in their interpretations.

So I find no compelling evidence in the scripture for raptures and third temples.

I believe Jesus could return in glory before sunset today, or it could be way, way in the future.

The big themes in the prophecies I listed above seem to be, 'repent', 'endure suffering patiently', 'place your hope in God's promises'. That is what I hang on to.

Hi @Hekuran,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question. I understand where you are coming from now.

In regard to the subject of this particular thread, and your response to it:-

* 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, details the event which man has termed 'the rapture'. This occurs at the second coming of the Lord, as 1 Corinthians 15:23 (vv.50-58); 1 Thessalonians 2:19; and 1 John 2:18 (KJV) also indicate. Matthew 24:39-44 refers to the coming of the Lord, and to those who will be taken and others left. Do you not believe that this event will occur as the Scriptures say? If so, to whom does it apply?

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Hekuran]

I think 'rapture' theology misunderstands some key passages.

I wrote a bit about the 1 Thess 4 passage in post 82

The Thessalonians passage ends 'and we will be with him forever'. Paul is not saying we will be dangling mid-air for 1,000 years.

We will rise to greet Jesus as he returns in glory and join the heavenly procession as he comes to reign over the earth. Like an ancient middle-eastern wedding party that rushes out to meet the bridegroom and joyfully ushers him to the celebration feast.

1 Corinthians is talking of the resurrection of the dead, not rapture.

Matthew 24:39 is not rapture - like the flood, it is judgement. This was fulfilled when the armies of Rome sacked Jerusalem (AD70).

The thrust of all New Testament hope is in the resurrection of the dead and in Jesus return in glory to restore God's reign over the earth. If we hold on to these hopes, there's no loss in doing away with the word 'rapture' and all the ideas associated with it.

 

[complete]

I think 'rapture' theology misunderstands some key passages.

I wrote a bit about the 1 Thess 4 passage in post 82



1 Corinthians is talking of the resurrection of the dead, not rapture.

Matthew 24:39 is not rapture - like the flood, it is judgement. This was fulfilled when the armies of Rome sacked Jerusalem (AD70).

The thrust of all New Testament hope is in the resurrection of the dead and in Jesus return in glory to restore God's reign over the earth. If we hold on to these hopes, there's no loss in doing away with the word 'rapture' and all the ideas associated with it.

Hello @Hekuran,

I am sorry I missed reply#82 on P.5, containing your thoughts on 1 Thessalonians 4.

I Corinthians 15, I agree, refers to the resurrection of the dead, but surely so does 1 Thessalonians 4, for reference is made to, 'the dead in Christ,' rising first in verse 16; and only then do those who 'are alive and remain' also rise to meet the Lord in the air. Is it not then that the change from 'mortality' to 'immortality' takes place as described in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Matthew 24:39 is not rapture - like the flood, it is judgement. This was fulfilled when the armies of Rome sacked Jerusalem (AD70).

The thrust of all New Testament hope is in the resurrection of the dead and in Jesus return in glory to restore God's reign over the earth. If we hold on to these hopes, there's no loss in doing away with the word 'rapture' and all the ideas associated with it.

'But of that day and hour knoweth no man,
no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
But as the days of Noe were,
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.'
(Mat 24:36-37)

Hello @Hekuran,

Forgive me, but Matthew 24: 36-37 surely refers to the coming of the Son of man. That has not occurred yet, has it? Or the events recorded as associated with that event in these verses?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Hekuran]

I am not absolutely sure how to divide up the timelines in Matthew 24 to be honest. The best explanation I have is that when Jesus talks about the 'coming of the Son of Man', he's talking in a similar way to Old Testament prophets such as in Micah 1

Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth.
The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.
All this is because of Jacob’s transgression,
because of the sins of the people of Israel.
What is Jacob’s transgression?
Is it not Samaria?
What is Judah’s high place?
Is it not Jerusalem?

"The Lord is coming", but the means of his arrival and judgement were the invading armies of Assyria and Babylon. So Jesus is talking about his judgement arriving in the form of the Roman army.

I do belive that Jesus will return in glory, at the same time the dead will rise from the grave and the whole of creation will be renewed -- but that's not what Jesus is talking about here.

That's my best reading to date.

 

[complete]

I am not absolutely sure how to divide up the timelines in Matthew 24 to be honest. The best explanation I have is that when Jesus talks about the 'coming of the Son of Man', he's talking in a similar way to Old Testament prophets such as in Micah 1

Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth.
The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.
All this is because of Jacob’s transgression,
because of the sins of the people of Israel.
What is Jacob’s transgression?
Is it not Samaria?
What is Judah’s high place?
Is it not Jerusalem?

"The Lord is coming", but the means of his arrival and judgement were the invading armies of Assyria and Babylon. So Jesus is talking about his judgement arriving in the form of the Roman army.

I do believe that Jesus will return in glory, at the same time the dead will rise from the grave and the whole of creation will be renewed -- but that's not what Jesus is talking about here.

That's my best reading to date.

Hello @Hekuran,

Thank you for responding as you have, in giving an explanation as to your thinking on this, I am not in a position to respond properly at the moment, but I just want to let you know that I appreciate your time and effort.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[JerryfromMass]

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). Saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

“Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

“The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

“It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves despite the failed prophecies surrounding them, millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims that have no scripture supporting them.

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when the best-known Rapturists cannot?

I don't agree when pretribbers say that Matthew was written only to the Jew. Nor do I agree with notion that the Bride of Christ will not suffer tribulation before being caught up to be with the Lord.

In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus told the parable of the tenant farmers, drawing from what HE told Isaiah (Isaiah 5), that the nations (gentiles) would be HIS heirs. HIS disciples to be awitness

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). Saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

“Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

“The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

“It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves despite the failed prophecies surrounding them, millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims that have no scripture supporting them.

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when the best-known Rapturists cannot?

Pretrib rapture is a deception, and a hoax, but people with itching ears love to hear their teachers tell them: "you need not worry: you are the Bride of Christ. You will escape tribulation. No need for you to consider your brothers and sisters that have been and are currently being brutally tortured, raped, murdered, beheaded for their faith in Yeshua; they are not in the privileged west."

All I have to say to my brothers and sisters in Christ is this: prepare yourself for great tribulation. Be strong in the Lord and in the powet of HIS might. Put on the whole armor of God for your reward is eternal salvation in God's heavenly kingdom. Be pure in Christ for your gift awaits. Your gift is not the rapture, but eternal life. Comfort one another with these words. Peace love and blessings to all.

 

[Bill]

Well -- since it Is in Scripture -- obviously it Will happen.

Is it really scripture or is it just the interpretation. Meaning the pre-tribulation Rapture thing

I know there will be a rapture it's when Jesus returns and meets Us in the air that's when we will be raptured up to him.

It's the only one I will agree with. Never in the history of the Jewish people or the Christians did anyone ever Cut and Run. As far as the Jews go with slavery it says they were forced into it. And like the Christians of the time of Nero they faced their fears head-on going before the Lions

 

[JerryfromMass]

@Dave L -- how does a person end up with two raptures? 1 Thessalonians 4:13 -18 -- that is the rapture being talked about.

There is nothing evil about a pre-trib rapture.

There is nothing evil about believing in pretrib rapture, but is pretrib rapture the truth? If pretrib rapture is the absolute truth, then any rapture teaching other than pretrib is a lie. Therefore, those teaching rapture as anything other than pretrib are false teachers and therefore evil ("beware of false teachers"). Or, if a rapture position other than pretrib is the truth, anyone teaching pretrib is a false teacher and therefore ... and so on. Such divisions are unnecessary, but they are divisions that exist. Our blessed hope is Jesus, and our gift is eternal life with HIM, whether HE raptures us pre, mid, post, or some other time should not be our primary focus. Blessings.

 

[Sue D.]

@JerryfromMass -- you Do have a point. The Fact is that only God knows when the rapture Will happen. It becomes an 'issue' when looking into future events in this world. Various passages tell of events coming in history -- about perservering until the 'end'. That His coming in the sky for His Church Will take place -- and I suspect that we'll be so busy just living day by day or week by week, that we won't be aware Of it happening -- it will simply 'happen'. So -- 'we' need to be ready spiritually for whenever it does take place. Make sure Of our personal salvation.

 

[PloughBoy]

When we are dealing with "eschatology" there are so many avenues and subways, which seems to run afoul no matter what vehicle one may take, be it, train, rail, bus, plane, or a automobile, a personal means of transportation, to plot out, the pathway to our final destination. Believe me, we are going to "Hit the Mark" and be on time. No matter what road map we pick out.
Just as sure as granny once said: "Just as sure , as God, has made the Little Green Apples, that falls down from the tree". He will appear. and He will be right on time. You just make sure your lambs are trim.

Jesus said this: He was coming back to get us, and take us back where He came from. When the place is ready!
(John 14)KJV
"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Now how hard is that to understand. You see when, christians believe that when they die they go to heaven right then, their doctrine is messed up! They Go to "Hades" into the so called "Bosom of Abraham", until The Horn is blowed and Jesus tells the dead in Christ to get UP! and meet me in the sky because i am going to take you to the place I have prepare for you. "The Dinning Room table"! and we are going to set down for awhile. "For HE has prepared a table before us"

are you wondering now?

 

[Bill]

The evil that comes from false teachings has many issues. First and foremost a delusion of Truth. Telling everyone that they're going to have a great escape before the tribulation takes place makes everyone think that the tribulation is not already here. And it is literally at our doorstep.

In Revelations when it comes to the 6th seal it is very clear that when it takes place that the people up unto the time of the breaking of The Sixth Seal do not know about the breaking of five other seals.

Read the last line of the breaking of The Sixth Seal and it reads run and hide for the great day of the Lord is here

This is showing me that people did not recognize the breaking of the first second third fourth or fifth seal. They were not even noticed. It wasn't until the breaking of The Sixth Seal that people stood up and took notice of what was going on and where they were at.

I'm telling you that we are at the doorstep for the breaking of The Sixth Seal because it is the next one to be broken

 

[Dave M]

Now how hard is that to understand. You see when, christians believe that when they die they go to heaven right then, their doctrine is messed up!

I wonder what you do with this scripture that is clearly talking about when we die we are at home with the lord, we know his home is heaven and our home is heaven not AB, I believe AB was for the time before Jesus came.

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

 

[Sue D.]

@ Dave M -- I was just going to approach PloughBoy regarding AB, also. Because Part of what Jesus Christ did after He died on the cross was to go to AB and take back with Him those who were dead In Christ. Those in the other part / Hades/ are still there waiting for the final judgement and Then being put into the lake of fire and Brimestone. Because 'they' were not born again believers.

 

[B-A-C]

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

If it truly is soul sleep, then you wouldn't be "away from the body" quite just yet.
There are over 30 verses that say we "sleep" until the "the trumpet/voice of the Lord calls them".
There are another dozen that say this happens on "the last day". And at least 5 verses that say this happens
at the same time for everyone. Not one day for you and another day for me, but everyone at the same time.

 

[Sue D.]

The evil that comes from false teachings has many issues. First and foremost a delusion of Truth. Telling everyone that they're going to have a great escape before the tribulation takes place makes everyone think that the tribulation is not already here. And it is literally at our doorstep.

In Revelations when it comes to the 6th seal it is very clear that when it takes place that the people up unto the time of the breaking of The Sixth Seal do not know about the breaking of five other seals.

Read the last line of the breaking of The Sixth Seal and it reads run and hide for the great day of the Lord is here

This is showing me that people did not recognize the breaking of the first second third fourth or fifth seal. They were not even noticed. It wasn't until the breaking of The Sixth Seal that people stood up and took notice of what was going on and where they were at.

I'm telling you that we are at the doorstep for the breaking of The Sixth Seal because it is the next one to be broken

@Bill -- considering that none of that has happened yet. That which we are reading about Now -- is to warn us of what will be taking place in the future.

John is being shown all of this -- to write it down -- for us to be warned.

The seals start in chapter 6 -- none of that has happened yet.

Looking back through history since the beginning of time, there has been lots of evil taking place. Lots of martyrs. And believers have been warned that living the Christian life is Going to bring trouble. Nothing new.

but, no, I don't believe we are in the midst of the 7 years tribulation.

 

[Sue D.]

If it truly is soul sleep, then you wouldn't be "away from the body" quite just yet.
There are over 30 verses that say we "sleep" until the "the trumpet/voice of the Lord calls them".
There are another dozen that say this happens on "the last day". And at least 5 verses that say this happens
at the same time for everyone. Not one day for you and another day for me, but everyone at the same time.

And lots of people can find lots of verses to back up most anything they want.

 

[Reba1]

And lots of people can find lots of verses to back up most anything they want.

So true across the board .