Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I love discussions about the timing of Jesus return.

I stand with others who say what is most important is that you are ready, not that you know when
the thief shall come at night.

Some say the sequence matters because they fear that Pre-Trib believers will not have the spiritual stamina to
endure the persecution to come if they are expecting to leave.

With that said, How do Pre-Trib and Post Trib analyze these words of Jesus?

"For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all
that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
Luke 21:35-36

What is Jesus saying that we should pray to escape?
Perhaps some saints are worthy of the Pre-Trib Rapture and others are not worthy and
have to go through the Tribulation to be purified? Just questions, What are your thoughts?

My position is this. We obviously will go through tribulation at the hands of Godless governments,
the reign of the Anti Christ, and for standing up for Jesus in a Godless world. We go through the first 4 horseman
of the Apocalypse (Revelation 6:1-8) . But we don't go through the wrath of God which includes
the 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:7-9:18) and 7 bowls in which (Revelation 16:1-20)
God's Wrath is poured out.

In terms of how the Rapture fits into that and if the second coming and the Rapture are
two separate events or one, I'm still listening to the discussions to learn more. But I think it is fair to say that we will go
through tribulation but not God's wrath. The tribulation is like the wrath of the devil upon the saints (that God allows
to refine His saints so that "those who endure to the end shall be saved". But, then God's wrath is God's judgment upon
the wicked.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I love discussions about the timing of Jesus return.

I stand with others who say what is most important is that you are ready, not that you know when
the thief shall come at night.

Some say the sequence matters because they fear that Pre-Trib believers will not have the spiritual stamina to
endure the persecution to come if they are expecting to leave.

With that said, How do Pre-Trib and Post Trib analyze these words of Jesus?

"For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all
that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
Luke 21:35-36

What is Jesus saying that we should pray to escape?
Perhaps some saints are worthy of the Pre-Trib Rapture and others are not worthy and
have to go through the Tribulation to be purified? Just questions, What are your thoughts?

My position is this. We obviously will go through tribulation at the hands of Godless governments,
the reign of the Anti Christ, and for standing up for Jesus in a Godless world. We go through the first 4 horseman
of the Apocalypse (Revelation 6:1-8) . But we don't go through the wrath of God which includes
the 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:7-9:18) and 7 bowls in which (Revelation 16:1-20)
God's Wrath is poured out.

In terms of how the Rapture fits into that and if the second coming and the Rapture are
two separate events or one, I'm still listening to the discussions to learn more. But I think it is fair to say that we will go
through tribulation but not God's wrath. The tribulation is like the wrath of the devil upon the saints (that God allows
to refine His saints so that "those who endure to the end shall be saved". But, then God's wrath is God's judgment upon
the wicked.

I think we clearly won't go through the 7 bowls and 7 trumpets because of this. Read below:

"
A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.
The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of
their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts."
Revelation 9:20-21

It speaks of how a 1/3 of the earth are killed and how the "rest" meaning those who were not killed.
The rest, those who remain. They still did not repent. If these where Christians, what would we have
to repent from? Are these carnal Christians and nonbelievers together or just nonbelievers?

I think whoever experiences the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls will be those who love their sins more than
they love Jesus, regardless of if they call themselves Christian or not.

But true believers(those who have repented) will not be on the earth it seems when all this (7 trumpets and 7 bowls) is happening.

Is there anyone on here who believers we will go through the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls?
If so please share why. ( I do believe we go through the tribulation of the first 4 horseman )

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

"For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all
that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
Luke 21:35-36

Jesus tells us clearly, He does not speak in parables on this one. He states that
what he is talking about will impact the whole earth. Not just a few countries.
Not just a certain government. But the whole "face" of the earth. Ummh. Reminds
me of Noah's days. Umm. Come to think about it, Jesus himself said, just as it
was in the days of Noah, so shall it be when he returns.

So either when it happens we will be here or we won't. But whatever it is, we are told
it will come upon the whole earth. Everyone on the face of the earth. Then he warns
them to pray to escape it. Is this an escape like Elijah's chariot or an escape like Noah in the
Ark. Kept on the earth but safe.

With the latter view it is hard to put this in context because once again, it shares that
those on the earth when a certain aspect of these torments are happening will all
refuse to repent.

A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.
The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of
their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts."
Revelation 9:20-21

 

[Reba1]

When we read of listen to someone about God's Word . A prophet from God was never wrong.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

When we read of listen to someone about God's Word . A prophet from God was never wrong.

Are you speaking of when we read about the prophets in the Bible or are you speaking of modern day prophets?

 

[Reba1]

Are you speaking of when we read about the prophets in the Bible or are you speaking of modern day prophets?

Speaking of any one who claims to be a prophet from God byword or actions. The Scriptures are our blue print. The prophets of old were never wrong or in error . So many of todays prophets claim to have Godly knowledge. Late Great planet earth is a great example of what i am trying to say. The first edition is not the same as the latter. Todays men have learned to hedge their words , giving them wiggle room for escape from their lack of Godly truth.

 

[B-A-C]

But true believers(those who have repented) will not be on the earth it seems when all this (7 trumpets and 7 bowls) is happening.

Is there anyone on here who believers we will go through the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls?
If so please share why. ( I do believe we go through the tribulation of the first 4 horseman )

This has been a subject of interest for '@Dave M' over the last year or so.

Consider these verses.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Why are the elect still here during the "great" tribulation? There are some who say the "elect" here are the Jews. But if that's true, then only Jews will be raptured.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The elect are raptured "after" the tribulation of those days. There is no mention of anyone other than the elect being raptured here.

Mark says the same thing.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Also, let us consider the 5th trumpet here.

Rev 9:1; Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him.
Rev 9:2; He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3; Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4; They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

For this particular plague at least, those who have the mark of God on them, won't be hurt by this plague. It's possible they won't be hurt by any of the plagues.
So who are these people with the mark of God of them during the tribulation? They are still here for the 5th trumpet at least.

Finally we have this passage.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Rev 7:11; And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12; saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There will be people who come out of the great tribulation from every race of people (not just Jews). Who are these people from every nation who receive white robes? The answer is in verse 14.

 

[Reba1]

Maybe not to most of you but i see the story of Joshua and Caleb as a picture of the Church.
Num 14:1 And all the congregation lifted up their voice, and cried; and the people wept that night.
Num 14:2 And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!
Num 14:3 And wherefore hath the LORD brought us unto this land, to fall by the sword, that our wives and our children should be a prey? were it not better for us to return into Egypt?
Num 14:4 And they said one to another, Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt.
Num 14:5 Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel.
Num 14:6 And Joshua the son of Nun, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, which were of them that searched the land, rent their clothes:
Num 14:7 And they spake unto all the company of the children of Israel, saying, The land, which we passed through to search it, is an exceeding good land.
Num 14:8 If the LORD delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.
Num 14:9 Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us: their defence is departed from them, and the LORD is with us: fear them not.

We are not to fear we are of the tribe of Juda !

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Speaking of any one who claims to be a prophet from God byword or actions. The Scriptures are our blue print. The prophets of old were never wrong or in error . So many of todays prophets claim to have Godly knowledge. Late Great planet earth is a great example of what i am trying to say. The first edition is not the same as the latter. Todays men have learned to hedge their words , giving them wiggle room for escape from their lack of Godly truth.

In bible times, a prophet had to be right 100% of the time or he was stoned as a false prophet....Today,.... How many so called prophets would stand up to that? There are so many people who call themselves prophets who are not....It seems that every ministry, at least TV ministries, say their man is a prophet... So I do ask....Prophet by what standard?

 

[Dave M]

a good question IMO to ask is who is going to be left at the end alive, that is who survive the Armageddon, and enters into the 1,000 year rule in mortal bodies??

if the answer is believers then I don see how the post trib works?

if the answer is non believers I dont see how the pre trib works?

Zechariah 14
16. Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
17. And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them.

we can see the only people that are left going into the 1,000 rule of Christ are non- believers IMO , to me meaning all the believers are gone with with Jesus as it states in Mathew 24

Mathew 24
29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days:‘The sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

four winds are generally accepted to be the four corners of the earth. Also I can give you a ton a scripture that I think defines the elect, if you want just let me know. but here is one that I like

2 Timothy 2:10
10. Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
.11. The saying is trustworthy, for If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12. if we endure, we will also reign with him;if we deny him, he also will deny us
13. if we are faithless, he remains faithful for he cannot deny himself.


We know that later on in the tribulation that the beast is allowed to make war on the saints, Revelation 13:7 Also we Have Jesus himself giving instructions to the saints that are going through tribulation on what to do Revelation 13:10, so we have all kinds of evidence in the bible saying the saints are still there and not gone by a rapture. IMO

What I do not see is any distinction being made about so-called “tribulation saints” it says nowhear that these people came to Christ during the tribulation. What we are told from Paul is that there is a great falling away from God during end times. 2 Thessalonians 2:3
So I would have to speculate that the saints were saved before the tribulation not during the tribulation. And if any at all are getting saved it would be very few.

 

[Reba1]

In bible times, a prophet had to be right 100% of the time or he was stoned as a false prophet....Today,.... How many so called prophets would stand up to that? There are so many people who call themselves prophets who are not....It seems that every ministry, at least TV ministries, say their man is a prophet... So I do ask....Prophet by what standard?

in my opinion. A true prophet from God would be of the Biblical standard. The Word of God is thee Authority.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

in my opinion. A true prophet from God would be of the Biblical standard. The Word of God is thee Authority.

Right....And those true prophets are not as numerous as one might think. One has to be very careful who they listen to....Research them...Liten to what they say and compare it to the Word....If they prophesy rightly the Word WILL back them up. If it does not, then that prophesy is from the enemy.

 

[Reba1]

Right....And those true prophets are not as numerous as one might think. One has to be very careful who they listen to....Research them...Liten to what they say and compare it to the Word....If they prophesy rightly the Word WILL back them up. If it does not, then that prophesy is from the enemy.

We agree ?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

We agree ?

Could be....LOL

 

[Dave M]

Revelation 6
9. And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.
10. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
11. Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

I believe these souls represent all martyrs through out history, some say they only represent those out of tribulation, but it does not say that. either view relies on speculation IMO

Here we have from a good source that it says at the time of the rapture all who believe in Christ dead and alive will receive their glorified bodies at the time of the rapture, they are referring to the pre trib rapture. When will the Resurrection take place? | GotQuestions.org

so here is the issue with what is written above, if all the dead in Christ rise and are given glorified bodies before the tribulation at a Pre trib rapture.. how can there be souls under the throne of God who have not received their glorified bodies yet, because tribulation is currently taking place,

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Revelation 6
9. And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.
10. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
11. Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

I believe these souls represent all martyrs through out history, some say they only represent those out of tribulation, but it does not say that. either view relies on speculation IMO

Here we have from a good source that it says at the time of the rapture all who believe in Christ dead and alive will receive their glorified bodies at the time of the rapture, they are referring to the pre trib rapture. When will the Resurrection take place? | GotQuestions.org

so here is the issue with what is written above, if all the dead in Christ rise and are given glorified bodies before the tribulation at a Pre trib rapture.. how can there be souls under the throne of God who have not received their glorified bodies yet, because tribulation is currently taking place,

I, for one, put zero credence to GotQuestions.com. They spout opinion only. As my opinion only means anything to me.....Their opinion might mean something to them, but I've found too many places where their opinion does not line up with the Word.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

This has been a subject of interest for '@Dave M' over the last year or so.

Consider these verses.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Why are the elect still here during the "great" tribulation? There are some who say the "elect" here are the Jews. But if that's true, then only Jews will be raptured.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The elect are raptured "after" the tribulation of those days. There is no mention of anyone other than the elect being raptured here.

Mark says the same thing.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Also, let us consider the 5th trumpet here.

Rev 9:1; Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him.
Rev 9:2; He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3; Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4; They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

For this particular plague at least, those who have the mark of God on them, won't be hurt by this plague. It's possible they won't be hurt by any of the plagues.
So who are these people with the mark of God of them during the tribulation? They are still here for the 5th trumpet at least.

Finally we have this passage.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Rev 7:11; And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12; saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There will be people who come out of the great tribulation from every race of people (not just Jews). Who are these people from every nation who receive white robes? The answer is in verse 14.

I love your use of scripture. You are such an excellent teacher.

Thanks for illuminating the scriptures brother. Thank you.

 

[Hekuran]

Then you should do your research again?

I don't think so. "harpazo" crops up about a dozen times in the new testament. Many link the use in 1 Thess 4 with the rapture, but this passage is clearly talking about Jesus' return.

The doctrine of the rapture has no Biblical basis.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I don't think so. "harpazo" crops up about a dozen times in the new testament. Many link the use in 1 Thess 4 with the rapture, but this passage is clearly talking about Jesus return.

The doctrine of the rapture has no Biblical basis.

Well let me ask you about that....When Jesus returns, he'll be on the Earth for the next thousand years....What are we doing in the air? Why don't we meet Him on Earth...The tens of thousands of the saints that accompany Him to Earth, Where did they come from? How did they get to heaven to come down with him? Those are but a few questions that come to mind

 

[Bill]

Dear Brother Dave L,
Let me put my question in another way. Does it matter when the Rapture happens, if it happens?

Personally, I believe if it happens, it will be prior to God's Wrath being released on the Earth. I don't believe God's people are meant to experience His Wrath.

If you haven't noticed, to me I don't live my life waiting for it to happen or not to happen, because my faith is in the Lord, as I await His return, while going about His business.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

There will be a rapture. It will happen at Jesus return.

But what has been going on for so long, people are building thier hopes on a false premise. I would even dare to say, many have set thier faith into following this, believing it no matter the evidence against it.

And the resault, those who follow this are not ready .

We are on the brink , the very edge and Revelation is already unfolding under our noses.

It is written in the scripture people will not recognize, not even know where they are in Revelation until the Sixth Seal breaks open. For it is written.

" Run and hide for the Great Day of the Lord is here "

The other seals, 5 of them were broken, but no one paid attention. Except those the Lord shared it with.

As scripture states, " I tell my prophet what happens before it comes "