"Rich" Christians?

[Rad]

Nor have I. As I said, some very rich people "may" be surprised to see that the person that was their gardener in life, is now one of the megarich in Heaven. As Jesus said, the first shall be last.

I'm certainly NOT suggesting that rich people should go to Hell. For that matter, I'm not sure that anyone deserves or receives such a fate. The Bible is clear, however, that our heavenly rewards will vary based on our deeds in this life. No, deeds to not save us, but Jesus did talk of how we can build our "riches" in Heaven. No, not every person's heaven will be the same, at least not initially, I surmise.

My guess is that, in the hereafter, we will continue to learn and to grow and that, eventually, we can all be like Jesus in our ability to love perfectly.

Hi K9Buckeye, no i wasnt saying you were, my apologies , i was just stating that I wouldnt ever pronounce on any individuals salvation or otherwise but that it does seem very clear from Christs teachings that it will be almost impossible for the "Rich" to enter Heaven, but as Christ also says, "with God everything is possible".

 

[Rad]

I don't believe that's an issue. I think the very few people that are extraordinarily generous to the less fortunate are going to be magnificently rewarded in Heaven. Those that are extraordinarily selfish are going to be much less rewarded in Heaven. None of this has anything to do with salvation, mind you. I'm not suggesting that one can buy their way into Heaven. That's not what I am saying. I AM saying that those who sacrifice more for their fellow man will likely receive more heavenly riches than others.

I dont think its a question of "Buying your way into Heaven", but that your compassion, your love for others , particularly those suffering , is reflected in your life and how much you give to those in need, will the greedy and selfish enter Heaven?, well thats for God to judge, but if the basis of our Faith is to Love God and our Neighbour as ourselves then my guess is its going to be very, very hard.

 

[Rad]

-
The word says that "poverty is the destruction of the poor".

And there is the theology of the self righteous, that teaches the "poverty gospel", whereby they try to pretend they are spiritual and mature because they have nothing.
This type of theology is the fruit of ignorance and heresy.

Let me show you , reader, some common sense.

God expects you to TITHE and GIVE to the POOR and give Offerings.
So, if God didnt want you to have money, and plenty of it, so that you can GIVE, then he would not ask you to give.
Listen..
God does not give out of His poverty......He gives out of His ""RICHES in Glory.""
Soloman was the RICHES man who ever lived, and GOD gave him the riches....
The word says that its God who give you the POWER to create wealth..
WEALTH is not just Spiritual,.. Its not just Health....... its Literal $$$$$ as well.
We are an HEIR of God and a Joint Heir with Jesus, and they are not BROKE....they are NOT in poverty..
Believe it.
So, if you are born again, then you are a part of al that God has........ as all the born again are "ONE with God", and "As Jesus IS, so are the born again IN THIS WORLD">..

Get the revelation...

Hi Bethel, this isnt the "Poverty Gospel", but the "Gospel of Jesus Christ", our saviour, and im not trying to be "self righteous", i readily acknowledge my sins and offer no defence for them, i am trying to follow Christs teachings but fail every day and am in dire need of Gods forgiveness and Grace, that being said , ..... from the numerous quotes from the Gospels that have been posted on this thread its clear that Christ condemns Riches and those that possess them, and its not that God doesnt want us to have money, he just expects us to give Sacrificially to those in need and not keep it for ourselves, for as Christ said in Matthew 6:19-21 King James Version
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Your "treasure" will claim your Heart, you cant seve God and Mammon, doesnt get much clearer than that, ........ Get the Revelation......!

 

[Rad]

Absolutely! Can you show a scripture or two that says God wants you poor?

Hi Admon Mikha'el, how about this one from Lukes Gospel,
Luke 6:20-26
New King James Version
The Beatitudes
20 Then He lifted up His eyes toward His disciples, and said:
“Blessed are you poor,
For yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are you who hunger now,
For you shall be filled.
Blessed are you who weep now,
For you shall laugh.
22 Blessed are you when men hate you,
And when they exclude you,
And revile you, and cast out your name as evil,
For the Son of Man’s sake.
23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy!
For indeed your reward is great in heaven,
For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.
Jesus Pronounces Woes
24 “But woe to you who are rich,
For you have received your consolation.
25 Woe to you who are full,
For you shall hunger.
Woe to you who laugh now,
For you shall mourn and weep.
26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
For so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Blessed are the poor, the hungry, those that mourn and those that suffer for Christs sake, for their reward will be great in heaven, as for the rich, those who are full and who Laugh, well things arent looking so good for them are they,

and in the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus, the poor man goes straight to Heaven and the rich man goes straight to Hell, the reason,
Luke 16:25
New King James Version
25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

So it would seem to me that God indeed "wants us poor", and that no matter how much our income ,we should give sacrificially to the poor and suffering and deny ourselves, so that we are indeed "poor". its all to do with the state of our hearts, for if we have taken Christs message of Love and Compassion for those in need to our heart then we will be truly converted, and the issue of possessing Wealth and riches would be clearly seen as incompatible with our Christian faith.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris, and if those blessed with worldly goods give a lot of those worldly goods away then by definition they will no longer be "Rich", the issue i believe is not how much money or worldly goods we receive, but how much we retain, how much we have left after we've given., that shows the state of our Heart, as Christ illustrated in the Widows Mite.
Mark 12:41-44
The Widow’s Coins
41 And Jesus sat down opposite the treasury, and began watching how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large amounts. 42 And a poor widow came and put in two lepta coins, which amount to a quadrans. 43 Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on.”

As for Joseph of Arimathea, perhaps God used him to provide a Tomb for Christ to rise from, i dont know, but i think its dangerous to take one example of a Rich Disciple of Christ and disregard all of the teachings of Christ condemning Riches and those that possess them, God does as he will, we just need to follow Christs teachings and it seems to me perfectly clear, those that possess Riches will find it almost impossible to be followers of Christ.

Hello @Rad,

The poor widow did give all she had, yes. She used what she had in the Lord's service.

'But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare,
and into many foolish and hurtful lusts,
which drown men in destruction and perdition.
For the love of money is the root of all evil:
which while some coveted after,
they have erred from the faith,
and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.'
(1Timothy 6:9-10)

'Charge them that are rich in this world,
that they be not highminded,
nor trust in uncertain riches,
but in the living God,
Who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
That they do good,
that they be rich in good works,
ready to distribute,
willing to communicate;
Laying up in store for themselves
a good foundation against the time to come,
that they may lay hold on eternal life.'
(1Timothy 6:17)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Rad]

Dave Why do you think God gives us the power, the authority to get wealth? If money is a tool, what could you do with it? I mean you personally.

Seems to me theres a misunderstanding here, if we earn, if we possess wealth, and if we use it as Christ commands in feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, comforting the sick and imprisoned, providing clean water for the thirsty, then if we give sacrificially, then we are by definition no longer Rich or wealthy, ..... the question im asking is can you Be a "Rich Christian", ,......... and from the numerous quotes from the Gospels and elsewhere the answer is an almost definite NO!.

 

[Dave M]

hen if we give sacrificially, then we are by definition no longer Rich or wealthy, ..... the question im asking is can you Be a "Rich Christian",

the thing I struggle with is what is sacrificially giving? or in other words how far do you take it??

Me no matter how much I give God, always give me back more, this is also in the bible, he says in malchi he will open the flood gates in heaven and to test him.

And another passage in scripture says to those rich enjoy it, but do good to others, dont trust in our wealth.

It is by no means wrong to be Rich, it just comes with lots of challanges or should I say responsibilties that Jesus warns us about. And not to mention its only temporary material thing that is going to end up burnt up in the end, so its not real eternal riches. I fully believe we are being tested to see what weather or not we can be trusted with real eternal riches.



Malachi 3:10
Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.


1 Timothy 6:17-19
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

 

[Waggles]

Proverbs 30:7 Two things I ask of you; deny them not to me before I die:
8 Remove far from me falsehood and lying; give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with the food that is needful for me,
9 lest I be full and deny you and say, “Who is the LORD?” or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of my God.

 

[Waggles]

1John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world - the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life - is not from the Father but is from the world.
17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hi Chris, and if those blessed with worldly goods give a lot of those worldly goods away then by definition they will no longer be "Rich", the issue i believe is not how much money or worldly goods we receive, but how much we retain, how much we have left after we've given., that shows the state of our Heart, as Christ illustrated in the Widows Mite.
Mark 12:41-44
The Widow’s Coins
41 And Jesus sat down opposite the treasury, and began watching how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large amounts. 42 And a poor widow came and put in two lepta coins, which amount to a quadrans. 43 Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on.”

As for Joseph of Arimathea, perhaps God used him to provide a Tomb for Christ to rise from, i dont know, but i think its dangerous to take one example of a Rich Disciple of Christ and disregard all of the teachings of Christ condemning Riches and those that possess them, God does as he will, we just need to follow Christs teachings and it seems to me perfectly clear, those that possess Riches will find it almost impossible to be followers of Christ.

Rad If you think those rich Christians that give largly would no longer be rich, you are mistaken...There is an idiom in Christendom that says "You cannot outgive God" Yes its just a saying but its very true...That's the way Gods finances work...You give in Jesus name and God pours back into your coffers. So you give more and God pours back MORE...See what I mean....The more you give, the more God pours back into your coffers...Once you start giving you cannot go broke. You cannot go bankrupt....
Do you think that poor widow went broke? Or do you think God blessed her finances? She gave her ALL...Where the rich folks there gave of their excess.

Christians like to say "God does as He wills" And that's true.....to a point....God laid down rules, and as a just God...He is also bound by the legalities He laid down.... Which by the way is the main reason He could not simply come to Earth ans splatter Satan all over the map to begin with....Satan, at the time, had a perfect legal right to be here.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hi Admon Mikha'el, how about this one from Lukes Gospel,
Luke 6:20-26
New King James Version
The Beatitudes
20 Then He lifted up His eyes toward His disciples, and said:
“Blessed are you poor,
For yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are you who hunger now,
For you shall be filled.
Blessed are you who weep now,
For you shall laugh.
22 Blessed are you when men hate you,
And when they exclude you,
And revile you, and cast out your name as evil,
For the Son of Man’s sake.
23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy!
For indeed your reward is great in heaven,
For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.
Jesus Pronounces Woes
24 “But woe to you who are rich,
For you have received your consolation.
25 Woe to you who are full,
For you shall hunger.
Woe to you who laugh now,
For you shall mourn and weep.
26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
For so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Blessed are the poor, the hungry, those that mourn and those that suffer for Christs sake, for their reward will be great in heaven, as for the rich, those who are full and who Laugh, well things arent looking so good for them are they,

and in the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus, the poor man goes straight to Heaven and the rich man goes straight to Hell, the reason,
Luke 16:25
New King James Version
25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

So it would seem to me that God indeed "wants us poor", and that no matter how much our income ,we should give sacrificially to the poor and suffering and deny ourselves, so that we are indeed "poor". its all to do with the state of our hearts, for if we have taken Christs message of Love and Compassion for those in need to our heart then we will be truly converted, and the issue of possessing Wealth and riches would be clearly seen as incompatible with our Christian faith.

Where does it say the poor will ONLY be blessed in Heaven....The Word says they are blessed NOW....Of course nobody teaches them HOW to walk in that blessing....They just act all holy and say "Enjoy being poor. Someday, if you believe enough you will not be poor." Teach them how to receive that blessing and watch them!

I'm not putting you down. Understand that....What you do is learn something in church and then when you read your bible you read what you believe...but Rad....You need to believe what you read....The Word is the one that is correct...not necessarily the preacher.
Look!
20 Then He lifted up His eyes toward His disciples, and said:
“Blessed are you poor,
For yours is the kingdom of God. Did He say when they are blessed? If it were future tense, would He not have said "You will be blessed"?
But He said (present tense) Blessed are you! "Hey Poor People! You're blessed because..." You have the kingdom.... Rad? What is the kingdom?

1. royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
   
   1. not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
   2. of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah
   3. of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom
2. a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
3. used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah

Wow! All that is theirs! Are they EVER blessed! And that's in the NOW! If they, like you, will receive it.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Hi Bob, seems to me that God is very interested in what we have, and what we do with it, because what you do with it is a reflection of just "What HAS YOU"

Jesus told the Rich young ruler in Luke 18:18-25
King James Version
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

In Verse 24 and 25 Christ goes from telling the Rich man to sell all he has and give to the poor and you shall have treasure in heaven, to pronouncing on the "Rich" in general, the oft quoted Camel and the eye of a needle, oh yes, Christ is very concerned with what we have and what we do with it, because its a reflection of our love for him and of the poor and suffering he so strongly associates with.

Except, of course Jesus KNEW that the rich young ruler would be COMPLETELY UNWILLING to do ANY OF THAT, and would go away back into death.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Rad If you think those rich Christians that give largly would no longer be rich, you are mistaken...There is an idiom in Christendom that says "You cannot outgive God" Yes its just a saying but its very true...That's the way Gods finances work...You give in Jesus name and God pours back into your coffers. So you give more and God pours back MORE...See what I mean....The more you give, the more God pours back into your coffers...Once you start giving you cannot go broke. You cannot go bankrupt....
Do you think that poor widow went broke? Or do you think God blessed her finances? She gave her ALL...Where the rich folks there gave of their excess.

Christians like to say "God does as He wills" And that's true.....to a point....God laid down rules, and as a just God...He is also bound by the legalities He laid down.... Which by the way is the main reason He could not simply come to Earth ans splatter Satan all over the map to begin with....Satan, at the time, had a perfect legal right to be here.

BTW Rad...I forgot to add that Luke 6 goes with Matt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit....The humble.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Except, of course Jesus KNEW that the rich young ruler would be COMPLETELY UNWILLING to do ANY OF THAT, and would go away back into death.

And of course the Bible does not say what the young man did later....The bible does not say the young man went to hell We just assume.

 

[Hitch]

A simple question, but perhaps not such a simple answer........ in a World where Hundreds of Millions of Men women and children endure lives of abject poverty, barely surviving on less than $1.50 a day, when 7 million children die from hunger and Disease every year, when lives of suffering, oppression and exploitation blight the lives of so many,........ is it possible to be materially "Rich" and still claim to be a follower of Christ?

Yes, The Law is explicit here and swings equally both directions. The poor are treated equally before the Law as are the rich.

 

[Dave M]

reading Acts this morning WOW, to see whats the first thing the new church did after receiving the Holly spirit had me thinking of this thread.

They sold all they had to take care of each other!!!

So lets just ask ourself what have we sold lately to help someone?? let alone all that we have.

Thats our example the church did not need anyone to tell them to sell everything they had the Holly spirit guiding them and were obiedent.

 

[Hitch]

reading Acts this morning WOW, to see whats the first thing the new church did after receiving the Holly spirit had me thinking of this thread.

They sold all they had to take care of each other!!!

So lets just ask ourself what have we sold lately to help someone?? let alone all that we have.

Thats our example the church did not need anyone to tell them to sell everything they had the Holly spirit guiding them and were obiedent.

Might pay to remember the Holy Spirit knew the real estate near Jerusalem would be worthless 30-40 years down the road.

 

[Rad]

Hello @Rad,

The poor widow did give all she had, yes. She used what she had in the Lord's service.

'But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare,
and into many foolish and hurtful lusts,
which drown men in destruction and perdition.
For the love of money is the root of all evil:
which while some coveted after,
they have erred from the faith,
and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.'
(1Timothy 6:9-10)

'Charge them that are rich in this world,
that they be not highminded,
nor trust in uncertain riches,
but in the living God,
Who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
That they do good,
that they be rich in good works,
ready to distribute,
willing to communicate;
Laying up in store for themselves
a good foundation against the time to come,
that they may lay hold on eternal life.'
(1Timothy 6:17)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris, i wonder if the call to not "trust in uncertain riches", and to "be rich in good works, " and "ready to distribute their wealth", "Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.' will in fact mean they are no longer Rich, and is a direct correlation to Christs teaching in Matthew 6 vs 19-21 " 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. ".

And how do you see Christs words in Luke 18 vs 24-25 " 24 And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

 

[Rad]

the thing I struggle with is what is sacrificially giving? or in other words how far do you take it??

Me no matter how much I give God, always give me back more, this is also in the bible, he says in malchi he will open the flood gates in heaven and to test him.

And another passage in scripture says to those rich enjoy it, but do good to others, dont trust in our wealth.

It is by no means wrong to be Rich, it just comes with lots of challanges or should I say responsibilties that Jesus warns us about. And not to mention its only temporary material thing that is going to end up burnt up in the end, so its not real eternal riches. I fully believe we are being tested to see what weather or not we can be trusted with real eternal riches.



Malachi 3:10
Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.


1 Timothy 6:17-19
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

Hi Dave, i think that what constitutes "sacrificial Giving" is different for each of us, there arent any hard and fast rules, i think that as with all "sacrifices" its a question of the motivations behind the Sacrifice and the degree of pain/discomfort inflicted to make the sacrifice, If the motivation is Love, Compassion or Justice and there is pain or discomfort in doing it then that to me is "sacrificial giving", and obviously the greater the Love, the greater the giving, then the greater the Sacrifice.

And i think it is wrong for a Christian to be Rich, as Christ illustrated in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus, Lazarus the poor man went to Heaven, the rich man, who we know nothing about except he was rich, goes straight to Hell, because "in this life he received good things". It seems to me that as followers of Christ we are called to lead lives of Sacrifice and denial, loving God with Heart, body and Soul and our neighbour as ourselves.

I noticed in an earlier post you mentioned proving a point to someone from the third world, whenever i try to justify what i have, or question whether i can give more, i imagine having a starving child in front of me and try to justify why i have so much and they have so little,.... the words would just die in my throat, for in a world where 7 million children die from Hunger and disease every year, every £10 or £20 i possess over and above what i need is paid for in their suffering and death, for thats all it takes to save them, so whats more important, my wealth or their lives, for thats the stark choice we face.

 

[B-A-C]

Abraham was rich, Job was rich.
Solomon was the richest man who ever lived.
Joseph of Arimethea was rich.
Zaccheus was rich,

For me it all comes down to, do you have money, or does your money have you?