"Rich" Christians?

[Admon Mikha'el]

Greetings,

not wanting to argue but may i ask, from what you wrote, can compassion only become a living action by and through money?


Bless you ....><>

Nope...Money can solve a multitude of problems but not all...Money will buy food, medicines, pay mortages and all sorts of things..Other cases require other forms of prosperity that the people may need. And we are to be the conduit for such things...God did tell us to REPLENISH the Earth...so He gives us the wherewithall to do that.

 

[Rad]

Rad you also want to look at WHY are we giving? Are we giving simply because God said to...giving out of obedience? Freely we have received FREELY give....You can see a need and litterally jump at the chance to give...excitedly... We tithe because that tenth belongs to God...It's His...But when we give we know that God will repay because He says so.... Please don't ask me to give you scripture for this today. I'm not in any condition to do a search for you...My mind is not clear today...I can speak what I know but I cannot process anything new today..

Hi Admon Mikha'el, a good point, for it seems to me why we give, or why we do anything, is of vital importance, for we are called to Love, both God and our neighbour, so i hope my giving has love in it, but there is also sadness and anger at what i see, and guilt as well, for i have so much while others have so little, and i know that my life of comfort and ease is at the expense of their lives of suffering and poverty, so there are many emotions. Yes, motivation is all important, because as the old saying goes, get your heart right and your as* will follow, or something like that.

 

[Rad]

Greetings Rad,



Is this so?

I think you'll find that all are 'treated' with the holy Judgement of the LORD.

If you read through the Proverbs, you will see that there is a difference between the rich and poor and how they interact with others and of course, if a rich man puts his trust in riches, it is vanity. However, as we read in Ecclesiastes, all is vanity. May i add to that however, that for those whose riches are Christ, His riches are not vanity but surety.

Quite a lot is about the snares and futility, the pride, the love and the desires for money and riches, as well as the aloofness of the rich compared to the poor, who find themselves entreating the rich, where as the rich need entreat no one. A sort of , 'how to get by in life' sort of 'rule of thumb', as a book of wisdom to be written upon the table of your heart, for life. But again, when it comes to the riches we have in Christ, to me, the more pertinent question, far more so than the material riches, is do we share and invest and give of those riches we have in Christ.... or do we quickly forget them?
The adversary would get us thinking about if and how we do things with the material riches... as a snare to keep our eyes off the true riches which are everlasting. Let us give no place to the devil.

A poor and needy person is very capable of being selfish, greedy and sinning. A poor and needy person needs salvation as much as a rich person. Without Christ, the 'treatment' you mentioned is the same.

As far as giving goes, who are 'you' giving to and why? Forget tithing. That has nothing to do with this topic. The poor widow gave all, a rich man can tithe easily and not even feel it. However, I think your question goes a little deeper, for you.

Something very beautiful about being led by the Spirit is to actually be led by the Spirit and how that looks for one member of the body can be very different to how it does for another, but God gives the increase.... to the Body, Christ being the head.
For you, Rad, perhaps you need to be emptied of all outside support, or perhaps simply keep giving as quick as you get. If you give everything away and have nothing, you then can become part of the 'problem' you are concerned about, if you refuse to be fed like a sparrow.
But for a while now, i have been thinking that perhaps you should look into a decent charity mission and seek to join with them and do whatever you are best suited to do and that way you can be doing something about the many who have so little and suffer because of it. What is it like where you live? Brighten the corner where you are, until the LORD tells you otherwise, be it to stop or to go [and do what you are called to do, if that be the case].

But, i also keep coming back to the unsearchable riches of Christ that are yours if you are His. No amount of material riches will even give a person a glimpse of Christ's riches. However, being so rich as you are in Him [if indeed you are - you or anyone, that is] are you doing the good of God with those riches? Among the many, many poor and needy around the world, how many need the Salvation of God? Set them up with a house and job without any knowledge of Jesus Christ and they will perish. Giving money for helping does not always help either.
In many areas, a person can become a target if they have something. even if it is only some food.
Give money and what guarantee do you have it will be used for good? Even setting people up in business needs a lot of care in some countries because the 'bad' people will milk them or their goods, and sometimes by force.



What is is to 'lay up for yourself... '? Could it be to invest in God's Kingdom, and that is not with material money riches and the like but with the treasures of Christ that He has abundantly bestowed upon those who believe?

We do need to be careful how we read into Biblical text. We can see something because it fits our thinking and thereby miss what is being said.

Have a read of proverbs and let the Lord guide your thinking as you do. Some interesting stuff to be found in the treasure book of the Bible. Spend it wisely.
Trust deeply and completely in the LORD and commit your whole ways to the LORD and He will direct you and keep you.


Bless you Rad ....><>

Hi Br Bear, many thanks for that thoughtful and challenging contribution, let me have a little more time to think over what youve said, at the moment things are a little hectic and i want to give it the justice it deserves, and i think this is one of the many attributes of a forum such as this, for it gives us time to reflect, gives us time to question our beliefs, for we should always accept that we may be wrong, and time to consider our replies, so give me a couple more days to get my thoughts in order.
Bless you as well Br Bear.

 

[Rad]

SIMPLE the rich young ruler (and by extension RICH people in general) trust their "riches". Jesus ALSO SAID (which you didn't mention) the ALL THINGS are possible with God.

SO I'll state again - what you HAVE isn't ever the issue. It's WHAT HAS YOU (what your "god" is) that matters.

Hi Bob, i think we're mainly in agreement here, except too say that what you have surely does matter , for as youve said, "Rich people in general trust in their riches", so if you have Riches they will possess you, which Christ Reiterated when he said " Dont store up treasure on Earth,... for where your treasure is your Heart will be also",........ and of course youre right, Christ said, "with God ALL things are possible", which is why, if i didnt say it, i should say, its ALMOST impossible for a Rich man/woman to enter Heaven.

 

[Rad]

@Rad if you think it is wrong to be rich that is your right. But what do you with this scripture here ? To me this is saying if you are rich enjoy it that was God who provided it. BUT NOT to idolize it.

1 Timothy 6:17-19
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

I noticed in the OT everyone loves to bring up all the rich people, I think and could be wrong as this thought is off the top of my head. But in the OT God was always promising material blessings for obeidence.

Now when we look at the NT we see all the Apostles and Jesus himself have very little earthly riches or earthly wealth. I also notice the promise in the NT is spiritual and eternal (for the most part).

T

Hi Dave, i see that passage as roughly in line with Matthew 6 19-21,
Lay Up Treasures in Heaven
19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." 1 Timothy talks of the "uncertainty of Riches", and of doing good, being rich in good works, being generous and ready to share and "thus storing up Treasure in heaven", perhaps the quote from Matthews Gospel is Christ telling his followers not to get Rich because of the dangers of Riches possessing their Heart, and perhaps the quote from Timothy is to those already rich becoming followers of Christ and being commanded to do good works and to give their wealth away,
Yes youre right, im not a Bible scholar but i understand that the OT was a different Covenant, and that as followers of Christ our principal authority as to how we conduct our lives is in the NT, and there it seems to me the words of Christ illustrate the incompatibility of being Rich and claiming to be his follower

 

[Rad]

Rad You're reading into the Word. You're assuming that Zaccaeus would be broke after that, but the Word does not say that... Do you know for a fact how much riches the man had? The point of the story is that Zaccaeus put his faith in Jesus and repented of his crooked lifestyle

Hi Admon, youre right, im assuming that after giving half his wealth to the poor and 4 times back to anyone he'd extorted money from he would indeed be almost penniless. From what i understand Publicans were the source of hatred and contempt not only because they were collecting taxes for an occupying Army but also because of their extortionate and corrupt practices. As Chief amongst the Publicans Zacchaeus would undoubtedly have been heavily involved in this corruption and extortion in becoming the Rich man he was. And youre right, Zacchaeus did put his faith in Christ, renounced his Faith in his Riches and understood that to be a follower of Christ he could no longer hold onto that wealth, and its only after Zacchaeus made his announcemnt that Christ pronounced, "This day is Salvation come to this House".
And perhaps this is a lesson for all of us who have grown rich through a corrupt and unjust World Economic system that puts the mass of the worlds riches into the hands of the few leaving hundreds of millions of Men, women and children mired in Poverty and Suffering and millions dying every year from hunger and disease

 

[Rad]

It strikes me as a cop out....The Word says He took on poverty so we could be rich....There are no stipulations,,,,but don't worry...If you don't believe it, you won't recieve it...You'll have no problems dealing with prosperity....none at all.

Hi Admon, why would Christ want his followers to be materially rich and then condemn the rich as he did in Luke 6 vs 24 and on many occasions throughout the Gospels, and even if you believe Christ will deliver Earthly riches to you, if you do good works, if youre generous in your giving, if you renounce your trust in riches and instead store up treasure in heaven, then you wont be Rich on Earth for you will have given your riches away, but you will be Rich in heaven, and it seems to me theyre the "Riches" Christ is talking about,

 

[Waggles]

We have to read and believe what the Word says and not translate the Word to what our doctrines dictate...We need to read the Word for what it says…And believe it as it’s written….We should NEVER read it and try to translate it to fit our own doctrines!

Well then it is time for you to do what you insist others do.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hi Admon Mikha'el, a good point, for it seems to me why we give, or why we do anything, is of vital importance, for we are called to Love, both God and our neighbour, so i hope my giving has love in it, but there is also sadness and anger at what i see, and guilt as well, for i have so much while others have so little, and i know that my life of comfort and ease is at the expense of their lives of suffering and poverty, so there are many emotions. Yes, motivation is all important, because as the old saying goes, get your heart right and your as* will follow, or something like that.

Rad God does not bless you to make you feel guilty....He Never does that....But He does bless us so we can be a blessing to others..The guilt is from the enemy who uses shame and blame against you every chance he gets....Both shame and blame can cripple you from being that blessing...So you do know what to do when you feel them, right...Throw them right back into the enemy's face and praise God for the opportunities He gives you to be that blessing

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hi Admon, youre right, im assuming that after giving half his wealth to the poor and 4 times back to anyone he'd extorted money from he would indeed be almost penniless. From what i understand Publicans were the source of hatred and contempt not only because they were collecting taxes for an occupying Army but also because of their extortionate and corrupt practices. As Chief amongst the Publicans Zacchaeus would undoubtedly have been heavily involved in this corruption and extortion in becoming the Rich man he was. And youre right, Zacchaeus did put his faith in Christ, renounced his Faith in his Riches and understood that to be a follower of Christ he could no longer hold onto that wealth, and its only after Zacchaeus made his announcemnt that Christ pronounced, "This day is Salvation come to this House".
And perhaps this is a lesson for all of us who have grown rich through a corrupt and unjust World Economic system that puts the mass of the worlds riches into the hands of the few leaving hundreds of millions of Men, women and children mired in Poverty and Suffering and millions dying every year from hunger and disease

So Zaccaeus made restitution to the best of his ability, repented...well we know he repented...I would also be willing to guess he continued to give after he made restitution, and God blessed him with more to give....
The thing about giving with a good heart is God makes you a channel to keep blessing...and blessing

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Well then it is time for you to do what you insist others do.
[/QUOTE]
Mr Waggles Sir, You're absolutely right! We should be reading what the Word says....All the time.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hi Admon, why would Christ want his followers to be materially rich and then condemn the rich as he did in Luke 6 vs 24 and on many occasions throughout the Gospels, and even if you believe Christ will deliver Earthly riches to you, if you do good works, if youre generous in your giving, if you renounce your trust in riches and instead store up treasure in heaven, then you wont be Rich on Earth for you will have given your riches away, but you will be Rich in heaven, and it seems to me theyre the "Riches" Christ is talking about,

Rad Jesus did not condemn all rich people....We know that the majority, or so it seems, of rich people trust in those riches...They get all their pleasure from those riches....They are having their reward now.... I suggest you read Luke 6 especially from verse 17 to the end in the presence of the Holy Spirit...He is our teacher and counsellor...He can show you far far better than I can what He means..
We're talking about financial prosperity here, the one that Christians seem to fear the most, but keep in mind that God wants to prosper us in ALL areas...Some He will prosper with financial riches and others He will prosper in other areas....

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Hi Bob, i think we're mainly in agreement here, except too say that what you have surely does matter , for as youve said, "Rich people in general trust in their riches", so if you have Riches they will possess you,

Not necessarily. But they certainly did in the Rich young Ruler's case. I remember Robert Tourneau Who gave 90%, and lived on the "Tithe". It all depends who/what your GOD is. I've had a couple of "gods" in the past - Radio controlled aircraft, and Cigarettes. The aircraft was easy, but the cigarettes required direct intervention from God to beat.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Not necessarily. But they certainly did in the Rich young Ruler's case. I remember Robert Tourneau Who gave 90%, and lived on the "Tithe". It all depends who/what your GOD is. I've had a couple of "gods" in the past - Radio controlled aircraft, and Cigarettes. The aircraft was easy, but the cigarettes required direct intervention from God to beat.

Mr Le Tourneau had to seek God's help for several of his designs too...and God provided them.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Mr Le Tourneau had to seek God's help for several of his designs too...and God provided them.

He helps me all the time also - God is an Excellent engineer.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

He helps me all the time also - God is an Excellent engineer.

That He is my friend.

 

[Hitch]

Hi Hitch, would be interested how you came to that conclusion, because it seems to me that based on Christs teachings the Rich and the poor are going to be treated very differently indeed.

I suggest a review of Exodus and Leviticus, through this lens supplied by Job:

How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.

 

[Rad]

I suggest a review of Exodus and Leviticus, through this lens supplied by Job:

Hi Hitch, throughout the Gospels Christ repeatedly condemns riches and those that possess them, as in Luke 6:24, "woe to you who are rich for you have received your consolation", Matthew 6:19-21 "Do not store up Treasure on Earth,.... for where your Treasure is your Heart will be also" and also 6 vs 24".... you cannot serve both God and Mammon", Matthew 10 vs 25" Its easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich man enter Heaven", Luke 16 19:31 , the story of Lazarus and the Rich man where the rich man goes to Hell because as Abraham says in vs 25 to the rich man" In your lifetime you received good things,....and now are tormented" and in the Magnificat ,Luke 1 vs 46-55 Mary says in vs 53..... and the Rich he (God) has sent empty away".
On the other hand there is a constant uplifting of the poor, as in Luke 6 vs 20 where Christ says, "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of Heaven", in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus the poor man goes straight to Heaven because as Abraham says, " in his lifetime Lazarus received evil things .... and now he is comforted", in the Magnificat Mary says, vs 52 and 53 " He (God) has exalted those of low degree ...... he has filled the Hungry with Good things", and in Matthew 25 vs 31-46, The Sheep and the Goats, Christ so identifies with the poor, the hungry, the homeless, the thirsty, the naked, those sick and imprisoned that he says when we help them we help him , but when we ignore them we ignore him and will be judged accordingly.
No it seems to me that the Saviour we follow is a Christ of the poor and a condemner of the rich, and they will be treated very differently indeed when it comes to Judgement day.

 

[Rad]

So Zaccaeus made restitution to the best of his ability, repented...well we know he repented...I would also be willing to guess he continued to give after he made restitution, and God blessed him with more to give....
The thing about giving with a good heart is God makes you a channel to keep blessing...and blessing

Hi Admon, that may be, but i would also be willing to guess that however much he received, he gave most of it away, and was never again the Rich man he formerly was, because he recognised from Christs teachings that Christ condemned riches and having already seen the error of his ways would not fall into that trap again.
He recognised that in a World of Poverty and suffering you cant claim to love if youre living in Wealth and comfort and others are living in that same poverty and suffering, his heart had been changed to Christs Love and Compassion and i dont think there would be any going back.

 

[Hitch]

At one time men met with their workers, ate with them and went to church with them. There was a loyalty impossible in a deperson-alized relationship. A Christian employer sees himself as having duties to all those who work for him; an employer whose views have only an economic determination cannot treat them as men.
I have seen mansions once owned by wealthy capitalists built within a block or two of their factory. They were close to their work and workers in more ways than one. When man is reduced to economic man, to an abstraction, he will in time be dissatisfied, no matter how well paid. We are all of us more than a function, and to reduce a man to his function for us is to dehumanize and degrade him, and no high wages can do more than briefly palliate that fact.
To dehumanize “capital” and “labor” means to deny that any personal and Christian relationship is necessary between employer and worker. The connection is then reduced to an economic one; it becomes simply a matter of money. Society, however, cannot exist without care one for another, and if persons refuse to care, then caring is assumed by the state. The result is welfarism, impersonal and destructive care.
Caring, charity, has passed from the individual, from the church, family, and businessman, to the state, and it is proving to be socially suicidal. It is also destructive of freedom and property. The taxes required for statist charity support the bureaucracy better than the poor.
The property owner is no longer the source of charity; the state is in
the main. The property owner is less and less in control of his property, and he pays a ransom for it in taxes. Having surrendered his godly responsibility, he is no longer a free man.
~R.J. Rushdoony, ‘Property, Charity, and Freedom,’ in “An Informed Faith,” vol. 3, (1990), p. 868-69.