"Rich" Christians?

[Rad]

Rad If you think those rich Christians that give largly would no longer be rich, you are mistaken...There is an idiom in Christendom that says "You cannot outgive God" Yes its just a saying but its very true...That's the way Gods finances work...You give in Jesus name and God pours back into your coffers. So you give more and God pours back MORE...See what I mean....The more you give, the more God pours back into your coffers...Once you start giving you cannot go broke. You cannot go bankrupt....
Do you think that poor widow went broke? Or do you think God blessed her finances? She gave her ALL...Where the rich folks there gave of their excess.

Christians like to say "God does as He wills" And that's true.....to a point....God laid down rules, and as a just God...He is also bound by the legalities He laid down.... Which by the way is the main reason He could not simply come to Earth ans splatter Satan all over the map to begin with....Satan, at the time, had a perfect legal right to be here.

Hi Admon Mikha'el. thats an interesting concept, but ive got to say i see little evidence for it, Charities, both Christian and non Christian are crying out for funds , there is so much need in this world, so much Poverty and suffering, but i might be wrong, so if youve got any examples id be interested to hear about them.

From my own personal experience ive not had God fill up my coffers, and ive come to recognise the truth of Christs words, "Deny yourself, take up your Cross daily and follow me", if God continually filled up your coffers there would be no sacrifice, no self denial, and if God is going to fill my coffers then perhaps he could spare a few coins for those starving and homeless so they wouldnt have to depend on my charity and compassion in the first place.

And i must admit i dont know whether God is bound by "the legalities he laid down", i just accept the fact there is so much i dont know about God , faith and its application to our lives, but it does seem clear to me that from Christs teachings the possession of Wealth and Riches is incompatible with being a follower of his.

 

[Rad]

Where does it say the poor will ONLY be blessed in Heaven....The Word says they are blessed NOW....Of course nobody teaches them HOW to walk in that blessing....They just act all holy and say "Enjoy being poor. Someday, if you believe enough you will not be poor." Teach them how to receive that blessing and watch them!

I'm not putting you down. Understand that....What you do is learn something in church and then when you read your bible you read what you believe...but Rad....You need to believe what you read....The Word is the one that is correct...not necessarily the preacher.
Look!
20 Then He lifted up His eyes toward His disciples, and said:
“Blessed are you poor,
For yours is the kingdom of God. Did He say when they are blessed? If it were future tense, would He not have said "You will be blessed"?
But He said (present tense) Blessed are you! "Hey Poor People! You're blessed because..." You have the kingdom.... Rad? What is the kingdom?

1. royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
   
   1. not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
   2. of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah
   3. of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom
2. a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
3. used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah

Wow! All that is theirs! Are they EVER blessed! And that's in the NOW! If they, like you, will receive it.

If you go down to Luke 6 vs 24 Christ says, "But woe to you that are rich, for you have received your consolation", Christ blesses the poor and condemns the rich, and that condemnation is repeated on numerous occasions.

And my belief in Christs condemnation of the Rich was not something i learnt in Church. It was in response to my being confronted with the harsh realities of this world when faced with the horrendous pictures i saw from the Ethiopian famine in 1984. I just couldnt understand why in a world of plenty so many people were suffering and hungry. Up to then i had been a "nominal" Christian, praying every so often, reading my Bible, going to church now and then, sort of just going through the motions. But when faced with the pictures of Skeletal children, mass graves and people with absolutely nothing, and this just before my Christmas "celebrations", an orgy of gluttony and excess, i found myself scrambling for my faith, a rock to hold onto in what was now a turbulent sea. And i wanted to know why, and my faith and my knowledge fused, i found a saviour so concerned with the poor, the hungry, the homeless and sick, that he said when we helped them we helped him, and when we ignored them we ignored him. I found a Christ of Compassion, Love and justice who blessed the poor and Condemned the Rich, and i found the reason why there is such widespread poverty amongst such affluence and wealth.

For In a world where there are sufficient resources for everyone to have a decent standard of living, the poor are poor in the main because the Rich are Rich, if the richest 20% of the worlds population consume 80% of the worlds resources then no matter how you divide the remaining 20% amongst the 80% of the worlds population there is going to be poverty, suffering and death on a massive scale. And thats the world weve created.

So its easy for me to see why Christ, who commanded his followers to Love their Neighbour as themselves and treat others as they'd want to be treated, condemns those , who through their greed and covetousness cause such poverty and suffering to their fellow man. "How hard is it for a Rich man to enter Heaven, Its easier for a Camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a Rich man enter Heaven", because if we have the means to help others who are suffering, and choose not to, then the Love of God cannot be within us.

 

[Rad]

Yes, The Law is explicit here and swings equally both directions. The poor are treated equally before the Law as are the rich.

Hi Hitch, would be interested how you came to that conclusion, because it seems to me that based on Christs teachings the Rich and the poor are going to be treated very differently indeed.

 

[Rad]

Except, of course Jesus KNEW that the rich young ruler would be COMPLETELY UNWILLING to do ANY OF THAT, and would go away back into death.

Hi Bob, im not sure how that refutes Christs teaching in vs 24 and 25 where he says it will be impossible for the Rich to enter Heaven, unless as ive said, you're looking for some mighty big needles or some mighty small camels.

 

[Rad]

Abraham was rich, Job was rich.
Solomon was the richest man who ever lived.
Joseph of Arimethea was rich.
Zaccheus was rich,

For me it all comes down to, do you have money, or does your money have you?

Hi B-A-C, how do you reconcile your opinion with Christs teaching in Matthew 6 19-21 in which he says, " 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. ",
no ifs or buts, however much we might think we have our Money, in fact , our money has us, its that simple, or so it seems to me.

And if you read the story of Zaccheus its only after Zaccheus agrees to give away probably all he has that Christ pronounces his salvation. he would certainly no longer be Rich after giving half his wealth to the poor and giving back 4 times to those he'd cheated. His renunciation of his riches came before his salvation, and was seemingly an essential prerequisite to his salvation.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Rad you also want to look at WHY are we giving? Are we giving simply because God said to...giving out of obedience? Freely we have received FREELY give....You can see a need and litterally jump at the chance to give...excitedly... We tithe because that tenth belongs to God...It's His...But when we give we know that God will repay because He says so.... Please don't ask me to give you scripture for this today. I'm not in any condition to do a search for you...My mind is not clear today...I can speak what I know but I cannot process anything new today..

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Rad,

because it seems to me that based on Christs teachings the Rich and the poor are going to be treated very differently indeed.

Is this so?

I think you'll find that all are 'treated' with the holy Judgement of the LORD.

If you read through the Proverbs, you will see that there is a difference between the rich and poor and how they interact with others and of course, if a rich man puts his trust in riches, it is vanity. However, as we read in Ecclesiastes, all is vanity. May i add to that however, that for those whose riches are Christ, His riches are not vanity but surety.

Quite a lot is about the snares and futility, the pride, the love and the desires for money and riches, as well as the aloofness of the rich compared to the poor, who find themselves entreating the rich, where as the rich need entreat no one. A sort of , 'how to get by in life' sort of 'rule of thumb', as a book of wisdom to be written upon the table of your heart, for life. But again, when it comes to the riches we have in Christ, to me, the more pertinent question, far more so than the material riches, is do we share and invest and give of those riches we have in Christ.... or do we quickly forget them?
The adversary would get us thinking about if and how we do things with the material riches... as a snare to keep our eyes off the true riches which are everlasting. Let us give no place to the devil.

A poor and needy person is very capable of being selfish, greedy and sinning. A poor and needy person needs salvation as much as a rich person. Without Christ, the 'treatment' you mentioned is the same.

As far as giving goes, who are 'you' giving to and why? Forget tithing. That has nothing to do with this topic. The poor widow gave all, a rich man can tithe easily and not even feel it. However, I think your question goes a little deeper, for you.

Something very beautiful about being led by the Spirit is to actually be led by the Spirit and how that looks for one member of the body can be very different to how it does for another, but God gives the increase.... to the Body, Christ being the head.
For you, Rad, perhaps you need to be emptied of all outside support, or perhaps simply keep giving as quick as you get. If you give everything away and have nothing, you then can become part of the 'problem' you are concerned about, if you refuse to be fed like a sparrow.
But for a while now, i have been thinking that perhaps you should look into a decent charity mission and seek to join with them and do whatever you are best suited to do and that way you can be doing something about the many who have so little and suffer because of it. What is it like where you live? Brighten the corner where you are, until the LORD tells you otherwise, be it to stop or to go [and do what you are called to do, if that be the case].

But, i also keep coming back to the unsearchable riches of Christ that are yours if you are His. No amount of material riches will even give a person a glimpse of Christ's riches. However, being so rich as you are in Him [if indeed you are - you or anyone, that is] are you doing the good of God with those riches? Among the many, many poor and needy around the world, how many need the Salvation of God? Set them up with a house and job without any knowledge of Jesus Christ and they will perish. Giving money for helping does not always help either.
In many areas, a person can become a target if they have something. even if it is only some food.
Give money and what guarantee do you have it will be used for good? Even setting people up in business needs a lot of care in some countries because the 'bad' people will milk them or their goods, and sometimes by force.

Christs teaching in Matthew 6 19-21 in which he says, " 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. ",

What is is to 'lay up for yourself... '? Could it be to invest in God's Kingdom, and that is not with material money riches and the like but with the treasures of Christ that He has abundantly bestowed upon those who believe?

We do need to be careful how we read into Biblical text. We can see something because it fits our thinking and thereby miss what is being said.

Have a read of proverbs and let the Lord guide your thinking as you do. Some interesting stuff to be found in the treasure book of the Bible. Spend it wisely.
Trust deeply and completely in the LORD and commit your whole ways to the LORD and He will direct you and keep you.


Bless you Rad ....><>

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Hi Bob, im not sure how that refutes Christs teaching in vs 24 and 25 where he says it will be impossible for the Rich to enter Heaven, unless as ive said, you're looking for some mighty big needles or some mighty small camels.

SIMPLE the rich young ruler (and by extension RICH people in general) trust their "riches". Jesus ALSO SAID (which you didn't mention) the ALL THINGS are possible with God.

SO I'll state again - what you HAVE isn't ever the issue. It's WHAT HAS YOU (what your "god" is) that matters.

 

[Waggles]

Luke 1:49 Because the Mighty one hath done to me [Mary] great things; And holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is unto generations and generations On them that fear him.
51 He hath showed strength with his arm; He hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their heart.
52 He hath put down princes from thrones, And exalted the lowly.
53 The hungry he hath filled with good things; And the rich he hath sent empty away.

 

[Dave M]

@Rad if you think it is wrong to be rich that is your right. But what do you with this scripture here ? To me this is saying if you are rich enjoy it that was God who provided it. BUT NOT to idolize it.

1 Timothy 6:17-19
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

I noticed in the OT everyone loves to bring up all the rich people, I think and could be wrong as this thought is off the top of my head. But in the OT God was always promising material blessings for obeidence.

Now when we look at the NT we see all the Apostles and Jesus himself have very little earthly riches or earthly wealth. I also notice the promise in the NT is spiritual and eternal (for the most part).

T

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

@Rad if you think it is wrong to be rich that is your right. But what do you with this scripture here ? To me this is saying if you are rich enjoy it that was God who provided it. BUT NOT to idolize it.

1 Timothy 6:17-19
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

I noticed in the OT everyone loves to bring up all the rich people, I think and could be wrong as this thought is off the top of my head. But in the OT God was always promising material blessings for obeidence.

Now when we look at the NT we see all the Apostles and Jesus himself have very little earthly riches or earthly wealth. I also notice the promise in the NT is spiritual and eternal (for the most part).

T

Dave I still don't understand why you say Jesus was poor...

Jesus was born into a family that owned a home.

Jesus’ step-father worked as a skilled carpenter and was required to pay taxes in Bethlehem even trying to rent a room at the inn there.

Jesus was born into the world and as a child was given gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. The frankincense and the myrrh were very valuable...and chests of gold are not spent in a day either

Jesus was not hungry and was criticized for eating with sinners and publicans.

Jesus wore fine expensive clothes of the day that were gambled over when He was crucified proving their extreme value.

When challenged by Jesus to feed the 5000, His disciples asked “do you want us to spend a year’s wages to buy bread for this crowd?” proving they had that much money in their pockets to do this.

The disciple Judas was the appointed treasurer of the entire ministry and this is only necessary if you have enough money to manage.

If Judas could steal money and it goes unnoticed, then there was a lot of money in his possession.

 

[Waggles]

Luke 9:57 And as they went on the way, some one said unto him, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
58 And Jesus said to him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the heaven nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

2Cor 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, being rich, for you he became poor, that ye by his poverty might become rich.

 

[complete]

'Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.
Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel,
when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me
as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you,
an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well-pleasing to God.
But My God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.'
(Philippians 4:14-20)

Hello there,

Paul was grateful for the gifts he received from believers during his time in prison, for I believe prisoners had to pay for their board and for the food that they ate while in prison. Yet he had learned to be content, regardless of his circumstances. He had always paid his own way by working as a tent maker during his ministry, so that he would be no man's debtor, in so doing ensuring that the work of God would not be ill-spoken of. Not that a workman is not worthy of his hire, but that he desired that nothing should hinder the work of God that he was engaged on in Jesus name.

He could also say to the Philippians that God would supply all their need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Their care of Paul would not go unnoticed by their Heavenly Father. They had cast their bread upon the waters, and they would find it after many days (Ecclesiastes 11:1)

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Luke 9:57 And as they went on the way, some one said unto him, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
58 And Jesus said to him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the heaven nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

2Cor 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, being rich, for you he became poor, that ye by his poverty might become rich.

I wonder why you would use these two verses to prove that God wants us poor....

57 As they were traveling on the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” 58 Yeshua answered him, “The foxes have holes, and the birds flying about have nests, but the Son of Man has no home of his own.” Where is Jesus' home? Not on Earth!!!

2 Corinthians 8:9
9 For you know how generous our Lord Yeshua the Messiah was — for your sakes he impoverished himself, even though he was rich, so that he might make you rich by means of his poverty.

So Jesus took on poverty so we could become rich….Just as He became sin so we could become the righteousness of God in His anointing….Just as He became sickness so we could walk in health…just as He died so we could live….Why would Jesus come to Earth and then do only a half a job of delivering us from the devil's clutches?

We have to read and believe what the Word says and not translate the Word to what our doctrines dictate...We need to read the Word for what it says…And believe it as it’s written….We should NEVER read it and try to translate it to fit our own doctrines!

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hi B-A-C, how do you reconcile your opinion with Christs teaching in Matthew 6 19-21 in which he says, " 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. ",
no ifs or buts, however much we might think we have our Money, in fact , our money has us, its that simple, or so it seems to me.

And if you read the story of Zaccheus its only after Zaccheus agrees to give away probably all he has that Christ pronounces his salvation. he would certainly no longer be Rich after giving half his wealth to the poor and giving back 4 times to those he'd cheated. His renunciation of his riches came before his salvation, and was seemingly an essential prerequisite to his salvation.

Rad You're reading into the Word. You're assuming that Zaccaeus would be broke after that, but the Word does not say that... Do you know for a fact how much riches the man had? The point of the story is that Zaccaeus put his faith in Jesus and repented of his crooked lifestyle

 

[Dave M]

So Jesus took on poverty so we could become rich

This strikes me as he is speaking spiritually not earthly,,, how does it come across to you??

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

This strikes me as he is speaking spiritually not earthly,,, how does it come across to you??

It strikes me as a cop out....The Word says He took on poverty so we could be rich....There are no stipulations,,,,but don't worry...If you don't believe it, you won't recieve it...You'll have no problems dealing with prosperity....none at all.

 

[Br. Bear]

"It is more to compassionate any one from the heart, than to give: for he who gives what is external, gives what does not belong to his own person; but he who gives compassion, gives somewhat of himself." - Gregory

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

"It is more to compassionate any one from the heart, than to give: for he who gives what is external, gives what does not belong to his own person; but he who gives compassion, gives somewhat of himself." - Gregory

Br Bear Giving compassion is more than just saying "Aww I feel sorry for you..." I needed help one time, I, with my family were literally on the street. We asked a church for a bit of help, and the response was compassion...."Be ye fed and be ye clothed and be ye on your way" they said and chased us away....Compassion while doing nothing is not compassion...Look in the Word...Jesus had compassion, and DID...He had compassion and met their needs...That's why we need to prosper in our lives and that includes lots of money...because compassion alone is worthless. Compassion is feeling, viscerally, another persons pain, and doing something about it.

 

[Br. Bear]

Br Bear Giving compassion is more than just saying "Aww I feel sorry for you..." I needed help one time, I, with my family were literally on the street. We asked a church for a bit of help, and the response was compassion...."Be ye fed and be ye clothed and be ye on your way" they said and chased us away....Compassion while doing nothing is not compassion...Look in the Word...Jesus had compassion, and DID...He had compassion and met their needs...That's why we need to prosper in our lives and that includes lots of money...because compassion alone is worthless. Compassion is feeling, viscerally, another persons pain, and doing something about it.

Greetings,

not wanting to argue but may i ask, from what you wrote, can compassion only become a living action by and through money?


Bless you ....><>