So tired of all the ignorant bashing of Catholics

[KingJ]

this would imply that Jesus did not know Judas was going to betray him, and yet we know that Jesus knew that Judas would betray him. In fact I would argue that Jesus chose him because he knew that Judas was going to betray him.

I do however agree we can most likely throw our gift of salvation away, the Bible talks about many times blotting out someones name

Tring to grasp God's omniscience is a dangerous space as we can be guilty of misrepresenting Him as evil. As explained here Free will.

- If God knew that Judas would betray Him, did He also know that he would not repent of the betrayal?
- Jesus knew Peter would deny Him three times, but did Jesus know he would repent for that and die a martyr later in life?
- Did God promote the devil knowing that such promotion would go to his head and cause him to fall?

As a Christian it is our one job to not misrepresent God as evil 2 Cor 5:20. As God is not evil Psalm 145:17. We must conclude that God did not know that Judas would not repent. God limits His omniscience to uphold being good.

 

[MedicBravo]

Right.
No amount of Christian merchandise is going to make one person better or more "saved" than anyone else.
I bought a cheap, simple cross necklace recently.
The few Christians at work and I are talking a bit more when we get the chance.
No one else has said anything about it.
Actions/fruits are what define a person not just where they stand as a Christian or other.

 

[KingJ]

1. He never states the bread and wine are his flesh and blood, literally.

Catholics don't believe that though. They believe it is 100% symbolic. Which it is.

Matt 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sin.

2. The priest and pope state they are REALLY taking Christ's body (bread) and breaking it and the drinking of wine is a recreation of Jesus on the Cross. That people are taking Jesus' body and blood into themselves.
Jesus died ONCE and on that cross. NO need to "recreate it".

I don't see anything wrong with thinking it is. Jesus says, it 'is'.

Obviously, Catholics don't actually believe the priest went back in time and took the actual blood from Jesus on the cross. Communion is 100% real and caries weight at the maximum level.

Think on how real the warning in 1 Cor 11:27 is ''Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord''.

3. The idea that the CC is the ONLY group to "get it right" and the rest of us are screwed is not Biblical.

They don't believe that. But they do have it right and many do make a mockery of it.

At my church, we have a full meeting dedicated to communion. It is a meeting to be taken seriously.

-------------------------------

Having said this, I hear what the preacher in your thread said with regards to ''they literally believe they are crucifying Jesus over and over again''. I honestly believe all are reading into it too much and feel it is certainly a Rom 14:5 type difference of opinion. I see the Catholics taking communion very seriously. Absolutely nothing wrong with that!

 

[MedicBravo]

1. They too are divided b/c many DO believe that and that doing the Mass over and over again is so important they'll cancel plans with anyone to go.
2. Bread has been a staple food in humanity regardless of culture. He could've taken any other food and given the pairings with wine it could've been cheese.
*I was stating about the Christians at that time not time travel.
3. Oh, they do! Some may not but at large the rift between them and Protestants will never disappear.
*I agree. I've declined communion a few times. Before I became a Christian and I even knew full well what it was and for, my instincts told me NOT to take it. If I was not sincere even as a new Christian then taking it would be disrespectful to Jesus among other things.
Every church I've gone to has offered it but too often. It tends to be a monthly thing and sadly churches report numbers and "butts in seats" to show their standing rather than the priority of bringing more people to God.
At this new church I've been going to, I won't take it again b/c I'm not where I need to be. Every church has failed me and there's nothing to prove this one won't.
I'm no more saved by doing it or NOT doing it.
I'm not better for doing it or less for NOT doing it.

 

[Bill]

Catholics don't believe that though. They believe it is 100% symbolic. Which it is.

Matt 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sin.



I don't see anything wrong with thinking it is. Jesus says, it 'is'.

Obviously, Catholics don't actually believe the priest went back in time and took the actual blood from Jesus on the cross. Communion is 100% real and caries weight at the maximum level.

Think on how real the warning in 1 Cor 11:27 is ''Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord''.



They don't believe that. But they do have it right and many do make a mockery of it.

At my church, we have a full meeting dedicated to communion. It is a meeting to be taken seriously.

-------------------------------

Having said this, I hear what the preacher in your thread said with regards to ''they literally believe they are crucifying Jesus over and over again''. I honestly believe all are reading into it too much and feel it is certainly a Rom 14:5 type difference of opinion. I see the Catholics taking communion very seriously. Absolutely nothing wrong with that!

Your understanding of Catholics is very unique.

Let me give you some understanding the Lord has shared with me.

Jesus is more than just flesh, when a person recieves Jesus into thier heart by reading the Word. This too is recieving the Eucharist. When a person gives themselves in replace of another - jumping on a hand grenade - or swapping spots so that someone can live in a life raft and that person dies from a sinking ship . This type of giving of oneself is in line with the giving of Jesus to the world. It is through this action that they received their salvation.

..........

Something that the churches have gotten away from, talking about the blood of the Lamb of God. That blood is a very powerful thing, and I would encourage the churches to go back to that teaching

 

[B-A-C]

Catholics don't believe that though. They believe it is 100% symbolic. Which it is.

Transubstantiation: A fundamental Catholic belief about the Eucharist - TheCatholicSpirit.com

Transubstantiation is a theological term derived from two Latin roots, trans (prefix), a preposition that means “over” or “across,” and substantia (root), a noun that means “substance.” To transubstantiate is to change one substance into another. The initial substance is bread and wine, and it...

www.thecatholicspirit.com

Transubstantiation is also not “transsymbolization,” that the bread and wine are symbols or reminders of the Body and Blood of Christ, or “transignification,” that the consecrated bread and wine come to have new significance or meaning.

Apparently not.

 

[B-A-C]

Your understanding of Catholics is very unique.

To say the least.

 

[Bill]

Transubstantiation: A fundamental Catholic belief about the Eucharist - TheCatholicSpirit.com

Transubstantiation is a theological term derived from two Latin roots, trans (prefix), a preposition that means “over” or “across,” and substantia (root), a noun that means “substance.” To transubstantiate is to change one substance into another. The initial substance is bread and wine, and it...

www.thecatholicspirit.com

Apparently not.

Catholics know that the bread and the wine that is consecrated by the priest becomes the body and blood of Jesus.

There are a few Miracles that support this as well, there was a host that was pierced years ago that bled. And more recently that particular post that had bled was inspected by doctors taking samples of the host where it had bled at revealed cell structure. That cell structure can only be found in human heart muscle tissue

 

[Dave M]

Tring to grasp God's omniscience is a dangerous space as we can be guilty of misrepresenting Him as evil. As explained here Free will.

- If God knew that Judas would betray Him, did He also know that he would not repent of the betrayal?
- Jesus knew Peter would deny Him three times, but did Jesus know he would repent for that and die a martyr later in life?
- Did God promote the devil knowing that such promotion would go to his head and cause him to fall?

As a Christian it is our one job to not misrepresent God as evil 2 Cor 5:20. As God is not evil Psalm 145:17. We must conclude that God did not know that Judas would not repent. God limits His omniscience to uphold being good.

God knows everything and has no limits,

I strongly disagree with you,

Please provide one shred of scripture that suggest God does not know who will repent and who does not, for God knows us before the foundation of the world. I fear you have made God to fit what is in your mind and not what is in the bible

Ephesians 1:4​

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love.​

Judas was written about in the OT, it is all part of Gods plan, there is no plan B there is no alternate plan what if? God is perfect Holy and knows all things, to suggest God does not know all things is not the God of the bible

 

[Garee]

BAC, just further to what I said in post # 51.

Judas was chosen by Jesus to serve Him on earth, not reign with Him in heaven as Christians are. He was a lot like those who taste of Christianity. They are given power to cast out demons, but God does not know them Matt 7:22-23. They are hated because they wear a Christian T-Shirt. But this does not mean they are a Christian.

The main issue of contention between OSAS and non-OSAS Christians is that non-OSAS seem to think that everyone who wears a Christian t-shirt is a Christian. As though God is a fool that would judge and graft into His family someone that would betray him and not repent, as Judas did. That is truly borderline madness. God is most certainly not a fool.

I was motivated by this point to create this thread here: So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!

Please take time to read and try grasp where I am coming from.

Yes he did not say you did not do good works preach the gospel . God can use a Ass as a apostle sent with prohecy . The ass representing non redeemed .He can send one who believes not. So then its not that he did not perform wonderful but as one not sent having no idea of who the strange man is . I never knew you . . we look to his assurance

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

[B-A-C]

TalkJesus is primarily a Protestant website. If you read the statement of faith here, it's all Protestant beliefs.
What is a Protestant? Someone who is "protesting" the Roman Catholic church. By definition we are "bashing the Catholics".
I've been on here since 2008. Wow, 16 years goes by fast. In all the time I've been on this website we've had several
RC members. For the most part everyone gets along and in my opinion, we've had a lot less Protestant/Catholic wars
than many other Christian websites.

That being said, we have a couple of members that press Roman Catholic beliefs to an extreme, prophecy's from Mary,
prayers to Mary, Vision from the Queen mother, etc... ( I can post links to these threads if necessary )
These are generally heresy to Protestant members, and will be criticized as such appropriately.

My take is... I don't frequent Roman Catholic websites, or Mormons, or Jehovah Witnesses, or Christ Scientists, or even pro-atheist
websites. I don't try to convert people. That isn't our job. We tell the truth, and the rest is between them and God.
If you want to spread Roman Catholic dogma, go to a Roman Catholic website. Why post all that here?

One of the criticisms against the Protestant church is that we have so many denominations, - Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans,
Pentecostals, Church of Christ, etc... but to be honest, it seems like many people claiming to be Roman Catholics or at least
Roman Catholic experts cannot agree on what the RC church adheres too either. I see many disagreements about what Catholics believe
on here.

If you want to talk about Grace, Love, Peace, Joy, Jesus, the Father, the Holy Spirit, Salvation, Sin, Repentance, Angels, Heaven, Hell,
Eternity, the Rapture, the Millennial reign, the New Jerusalem and hundreds of other subjects, more power to you.

If you want to talk about Transubstantian, Priests, the Pope, and the Virgin Queen mother, please go elsewhere.

 

[EverlastingWinter]

Never noticed this tread until now, I am excited to read it all .

I think debate is healthy but what you mentioned back in 2008 with the term bashing, I agree. It is not educational nor helpful. Wow never realized this site has been up so long, I was a young child then.

I am Conservative Anglican but in training to convert to the RCC.

 

[Rhema]

Catholics don't believe that though. They believe it is 100% symbolic. Which it is.

"The only possible meaning is that the bread and wine at the consecration become Christ’s actual body and blood."
From -

Transubstantiation for Beginners

What is Transubstatiation and where does this essential Catholic teaching find it's origins? Click here for a brief history.

www.catholic.com

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

Article considers: the fact of the Real Presence; the several allied dogmas grouped about it; and the speculations of reason, so far as speculative investigation regarding the august mystery under its various aspects is permissible, and so far as it is desirable to illumine it by the light of...

www.newadvent.org

( I see @B-A-C "beat me to the punch".)

 

[Bill]

God knows everything and has no limits,

I strongly disagree with you,

Please provide one shred of scripture that suggest God does not know who will repent and who does not, for God knows us before the foundation of the world. I fear you have made God to fit what is in your mind and not what is in the bible

Ephesians 1:4​

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love.​

Judas was written about in the OT, it is all part of Gods plan, there is no plan B there is no alternate plan what if? God is perfect Holy and knows all things, to suggest God does not know all things is not the God of the bible

It is true that God knows us before we are born. And that is the mystery of God if you want to put it that way because he does give us the free will to make the choice to put ourselves in Hell or not. Just like with Lucifer.

I mean you could make the argument knowing that God knows everything, that God is a sadist because he creates and already knows that they're going to fall. So they're those that are going to fall are going to go to hell and he already knows that, correct. So why should we worship a god that is a sadist?

Scripture tells us that God knows everything. And that God is nothing but love. So how can he create something that he knows is going to fail if he is nothing but love?

I would say that it is free will, that you have the freedom to choose one way or the other just like Lucifer had the freedom to choose. He knew he was going to go against God, he knew that God is the creator. Those are facts.

I would say that Lucifer had a similar false premise like Judas and so many others who felt comfortable being in the position of being saved. Like Jesus said, to the disciples your names are written in heaven. Evidently Judas Iscariot got too comfortable for himself feeling he's not going to fall. God is love why would he worry about failure if his name is already written in heaven. So he can do whatever he wants now like so many Christians out there that feel that once they're saved they're always saved so they can do whatever they want no matter what they want. And this is where the false premise comes in, the whole concept that you know what I'm saved I don't have to worry about a damn thing. I don't have to worry about Sin that's all covered I accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior I don't have to do another thing I can do whatever I want.

David this is a very same concept that Christians are going to have when it comes to the mark of the beast. They are going to think that you know what our poop doesn't stink. I can do whatever I want I'm a born again Christian. And they're going to shout it from the rooftops I can do whatever the heck I want it doesn't matter what it says in the scripture because guess what I'm a Christian I'm born again I'm saved.

And yet Jesus tells us, the story of the guy who comes before the king. When the king says away from me. And the guy says but Lord I cast out demons in your name I healed people in your name.

( I also need to point out something in this very phrase, or the guy claims to have cast out demons in the name of Jesus. We already know via the scripture that a person on their own cannot cast out demons. A person cannot use another demon to cast out demons. The only way a person can cast out demons is if God is with them. That's what the scriptures tells us )

So based on this that the scripture tells us this, that the guy who the king was rejecting had to have been with the Lord at least some part of his time. I often think that that particular story that Jesus tells about the Judgment with the King is exactly talking about Judas Iscariot. Because that is exactly how it was with Judas that he cast out demons that he healed people cuz the Lord sent them out to the towns Jesus gave him the authority to do that. And the only way that you just could have cast out demons is with the authority of God. God had to have been with him Judas.

It was Judas who chose to do what he did and betrayed Jesus. It had nothing to do with God. God did not make Judas betray his son. God knew what Judas was going to do, because God is divine. Again I say that is part of the mystery of God. But God did not create Judas to become evil. Judas became evil on his own

So again Christians who accept Jesus as Lord and savior, can fall from Heaven. Just like Judas. Just like Lucifer if you want to look at it that way cuz Lucifer had everything he was with God For Heaven's Sake. And he threw it all away over pride.

Christians during the time of the mark of the beast are going to accept the mark feeling that they are above everyone else. When so clearly it states in the scripture that those who take the mark of the beast condemn themselves.

And that sin, taking the mark of the beast, is a sin against the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rhema]

Please provide one shred of scripture that suggest God does not know who will repent and who does not, for God knows us before the foundation of the world. I fear you have made God to fit what is in your mind and not what is in the bible

Ephesians 1:4​

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love.​

I've always been fascinated that Evangelicals think the word "before" means "prior to" as opposed to "in front of."

And yet Foundation is a noun, not a verb to be seen as "prior to the founding of the world."

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.​

(Matthew 10:32 KJV)

Blessings,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

What is a Protestant? Someone who is "protesting" the Roman Catholic church. By definition we are "bashing the Catholics".

Technically ....

The term was applied to the Electors of the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire of the Germanic Nations. The Emperor thought that he had the divine right to decide what religion his subjects should follow. But the Electors thought that they had the right to select if their lands were to be Catholic or Lutheran (Reformed).

In that the sales campaign for indulgences was draining Germany of money, nearly destroying the economy, the Electors were trying to save their kingdoms. It really wasn't about theology as much as money.

But of course as language morphs, the term "Protestant" became more generally applied.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[KingJ]

Transubstantiation: A fundamental Catholic belief about the Eucharist - TheCatholicSpirit.com

Transubstantiation is a theological term derived from two Latin roots, trans (prefix), a preposition that means “over” or “across,” and substantia (root), a noun that means “substance.” To transubstantiate is to change one substance into another. The initial substance is bread and wine, and it...

www.thecatholicspirit.com

Apparently not.

I know what transubstantiation is and what they believe. Like I said the symbolism is as literal as symbolism can be. There is nothing wrong with that.

Think on how real the warning in 1 Cor 11:27 is ''Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord''.

 

[KingJ]

God knows everything and has no limits,

I strongly disagree with you,

Please provide one shred of scripture that suggest God does not know who will repent and who does not, for God knows us before the foundation of the world. I fear you have made God to fit what is in your mind and not what is in the bible

Ephesians 1:4​

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love.​

Judas was written about in the OT, it is all part of Gods plan, there is no plan B there is no alternate plan what if? God is perfect Holy and knows all things, to suggest God does not know all things is not the God of the bible

God's omniscience and the existence of true free will is a probably one of the hardest points to convince someone of.

It will derail this thread. When I have time, I will copy your post to the free will thread i have already created and we can discuss there.

Understand that neither of us are wanting to incriminate God. You teach free will whilst God is omniscient, that is good. I teach free will with God needing to limit His omniscience. There is only a problem, when someone does not support true free will. As scripture is crystal clear that we all have true free will!

 

[KingJ]

TalkJesus is primarily a Protestant website. If you read the statement of faith here, it's all Protestant beliefs.
What is a Protestant? Someone who is "protesting" the Roman Catholic church. By definition we are "bashing the Catholics".
I've been on here since 2008. Wow, 16 years goes by fast. In all the time I've been on this website we've had several
RC members. For the most part everyone gets along and in my opinion, we've had a lot less Protestant/Catholic wars
than many other Christian websites.

That being said, we have a couple of members that press Roman Catholic beliefs to an extreme, prophecy's from Mary,
prayers to Mary, Vision from the Queen mother, etc... ( I can post links to these threads if necessary )
These are generally heresy to Protestant members, and will be criticized as such appropriately.

My take is... I don't frequent Roman Catholic websites, or Mormons, or Jehovah Witnesses, or Christ Scientists, or even pro-atheist
websites. I don't try to convert people. That isn't our job. We tell the truth, and the rest is between them and God.
If you want to spread Roman Catholic dogma, go to a Roman Catholic website. Why post all that here?

One of the criticisms against the Protestant church is that we have so many denominations, - Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans,
Pentecostals, Church of Christ, etc... but to be honest, it seems like many people claiming to be Roman Catholics or at least
Roman Catholic experts cannot agree on what the RC church adheres too either. I see many disagreements about what Catholics believe
on here.

If you want to talk about Grace, Love, Peace, Joy, Jesus, the Father, the Holy Spirit, Salvation, Sin, Repentance, Angels, Heaven, Hell,
Eternity, the Rapture, the Millennial reign, the New Jerusalem and hundreds of other subjects, more power to you.

If you want to talk about Transubstantian, Priests, the Pope, and the Virgin Queen mother, please go elsewhere.

A Christian has to help their brothers and sisters in the Lord!!! James 5:19-20, Matt 7:3-5.

Calling an immaterial disagreement a ''DEADLY SIN'' as has been done just a few days ago, is not helpful in converting RCC members to Protestantism. That is the purpose of this thread. Please re-read the OP.

Matt

 

[KingJ]

Never noticed this tread until now, I am excited to read it all .

I think debate is healthy but what you mentioned back in 2008 with the term bashing, I agree. It is not educational nor helpful. Wow never realized this site has been up so long, I was a young child then.

I am Conservative Anglican but in training to convert to the RCC.

I would not convert, please read the first 3 posts in this thread, PROBLEMS WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Conservative Anglican is a very good denomination to belong to. If you compare church to eating at a restaurant. Your restaurant serves really good food!