So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!

[B-A-C]

BAC, now you just need to concede to the fact that if Jimmy Swaggart had a heart attack when he was with the prostitute, he would still have gone to heaven

If God knows the future. Then He knows when Jimmy is going to die. If Jimmy dies before he repents, into the fire he goes.

1Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1Cor 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Heb 13:4 Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge
I believe they can be forgiven... "IF" ... and only if.. they repent.

Psa 51:1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness; According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity And cleanse me from my sin.
Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.

 

[KingJ]

that is always a issue when WE envision , no need for that God gave us his word. What happens is we create something in our minds that is not reality.

I said it was inferred from Rom 2:6. I agree 100% with us not teaching something not in scripture. If we infer or state our opinion, we must be clear about that.

So, do you agree that something like Dante's inferno is 100% unscriptural? We have Luke 16:19-31, we don't need opinions or dreams.

the word of God says the exact opposite, but ones mind has to accept what God says,,, not what one thinks,, are you able?? Or will you make something up in your mind and pretend it does not say what it says in the word of God??

2 Corinthians 5:10​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

I accept this scripture for sure. But it does not state repay evil with evil.

Evil with evil would be committing the same sin as the one committed. Example, a rapist gets raped. In instances like this, the executioner is no less a wicked sinner than the actual sinner.

Would you have agreed with the Russians who, after WW2, did not want to sign the Geneva convention?

 

[KingJ]

We seem to go back to the same discussions frequently

That's because you are stubborn and do not want to concede!!

I don't believe God tortures.

Great!!

But He allows people to be tortured.

No!!! Allowing it to take place is the same as doing it!!!

The Bible says God doesn't tempt anyone. But He allows Satan to tempt people.
He allowed Peter to be tested, He allowed Jesus to be tempted, and He allowed Job to be tested.
There is probably a fine line between being tortured and being in torment. But I'm not sure there is a big difference.

Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

It seems some people will be "tormented" forever. Satan and the false prophet also, eventually.

Rev 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Is God Himself tormenting them? I don't believe so, but is He allowing them to be tormented? Scripture speaks for itself.

If God allows torture in the hereafter when people do not need to be tested any longer, it would make Him guilty of it!! It is like a prison warden who overlooks, equips and allows inmates to be cruel to one another.

Always assuming the absolutely worst interpretation of the word 'torment', is a massive mistake we must not make! A Christian's one job is to be an ambassador for God 2 Cor 5:20 and that entails properly representing Him to the lost. Please immediately stop implying the absolute worst with verses like this. There is no way to defend God as good if you teach and believe He tortures! As explained here Discussion on Torture.

Hell is terrible 'and' there is no torture. You don't need 'torture' to make it terrible.

Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Some say this is a separation from God, but I do notice in Rev 14:10 this torment ( or torture if you prefer ) will be in the presence
of the Lamb. Jesus will be right there watching. No rest day or night from the torment. Forever and ever.

As I have said before, the fact that Rev 14:10 states ''tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb'' should tell us with crystal clarity that God will not hide what he does to the wicked from us. Us, being Christains that do not approve of torture. The suffering they endure in fire will be something we approve of. IE Agonizing torment as mentioned in Luke 16 and not torture in fire with something like a brazen bull torture device!

We can go with what we think is right or wrong, or we can go with scripture. Scripture speaks for itself.

Matt 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 13:50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This "furnace of fire" doesn't sound like a very pleasant place to spend vacation.

You can't say ''we can go with''. God says He is good Psalm 136:1. God says He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. God says He is light with no darkness in Him 1 John 1:5. Going with anything other then best, most sane and righteous interpretation is error!

Fire is not pleasant, but we cannot add to scripture what is not there. The only passage in the entirety of scripture that explains suffering in fire is from Jesus, the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Rich man can hold a conversation. Rich man asks Abraham to dip his finger in water and put it on his tongue. This a far stretch from a brazen bull type experience. In that instance you cannot talk, you scream and you ask for a bucket load of water, not a drop.

As for weeping and gnashing of teeth. The only passage in the entirety of scripture that gives an actual reason for why people would do that is in Luke 13:28. IE Separation. Jesus never mentions the rich man weeping and gnashing his teeth!

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 

[Bill]

I am not Catholic, but I believe only really Catholics can maintain a belief in God being good whilst holding to an anti - once saved always saved belief. Purgatory would be the place to come right. A Christian who lost their salvation would go to Purgatory and not be among those that go straight to hell.

Imagine seeing Jimmy Swaggart, who fell from grace and was seen with a prostitute, in hell for all eternity. Those that completely and utterly HATE Jesus from the bottom of their hearts, and Jimmy Swaggart in the same cell as them for all eternity. I would like to hear what @B-A-C and others think of that.

Jimmy Swaggart did fall from grace, but i can tell you he really did find God again. I know, because God sent me to Jimmy. We spent a long time talking, and i am happy to say, Jimmy did repent before God.

He does not preach my faith. And i was not sent to Jimmy to make him Catholic. I was sent to him to bring him back to God.

 

[Bill]

There are many who believe that Jimy Swaggart, like David and Samson, was restored. Jimmy Swaggart is ministering again.

Jimmy Swaggart Ministries

www.jsm.org

However, he was dismissed from the Assemblies of God.

Why the Assemblies Dismissed Swaggart - Christianity Today

TELEVANGELISMThe denomination decides two million members and integrity are more important than one man.As he stood sobbing on the platform in his rose-carpeted Family Worship Center, televangelist Jimmy Swaggart was most apologetic towards the Assemblies of God.“To its thousands and thousands...

www.christianitytoday.com

'What's Past Is Past' : A Defiant Swaggart Returns to the Pulpit

Jimmy Swaggart, defrocked but defiant, returned to the pulpit Sunday and sought to save his troubled ministry by unleashing the talent that once had made him and his operation the envy of television evangelism.

www.latimes.com

I am one who thinks Jimmy repented.

But to answer your question... cells in hell, now there is a new concept.

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him.
Luke 8:31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss.

The word abyss here is interesting.

ἄβυσσος
abussos; from 1 (as a neg. pref.) and βυσσός bussos = 1037; abyss, underworld:—
abyss(9).

The same word is in Rev 9:1, it's called a bottomless pit there. It's also used in Rev 9:11.

But you may be right, there may be different levels of hell.

[NASB]
Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

[KJV]
Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Perhaps the fires in "the lowest hell" burn hotter than other levels, I don't know. But in the end, I'm not sure it matters.
I believe hell is a temporary place. Anyone who goes there, will not be there for eternity.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hell, and anyone who's name is not in the Book of Life, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. That's where they will spend eternity.
So then, I suppose the question becomes, are there different levels in the Lake of Fire?

I don't see any evidence of this in the Bible, but I'm not really planning on finding out.

To me hell is hell , separation from God's love, that is hell

 

[Dave M]

He does not preach my faith.

what is your faith?

 

[B-A-C]

God says He is good Psalm 136:1. God says He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. God says He is light with no darkness in Him 1 John 1:5. Going with anything other then best, most sane and righteous interpretation is error!

We are back to this circular logic again. But if the Bible says God is good, and the Bible says some people will be tormented forever.
How do we reconcile the two?

Do we just say the Bible is wrong? Or do we say we are wrong, and maybe something we thought was evil, isn't so evil if God is going to do it.

 

[KingJ]

We are back to this circular logic again. But if the Bible says God is good, and the Bible says some people will be tormented forever.
How do we reconcile the two?

Do we just say the Bible is wrong? Or do we say we are wrong, and maybe something we thought was evil, isn't so evil if God is going to do it.

It is not circular. You just assume the worst of God.

If one day God does what is evil, you are ok with that?

Evil is evil. Doesn't matter who does it.

 

[Dave M]

Evil is evil. Doesn't matter who does it.

what is evil please tell us your definition

 

[Rhema]

Do we just say the Bible is wrong?

For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.​

(Jeremiah 7:22 NRSV)

I am extremely reluctant to say that the above is wrong.

Rhema

And I am extremely reluctant to pass judgment to declare that the above scripture doesn't say what it does.

 

[Rhema]

If one day God does what is evil, you are ok with that?

Evil is evil. Doesn't matter who does it.

​

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.​

(Isaiah 45:7 KJV)

 

[Twistie]

High level, you are correct. The thinking is that mortal sinners would bypass Purgatory and go straight to hell. But according to my memory, it is not always taught as a given. It is possible to go to Purgatory if you are guilty of a mortal sin.

Except there's no purgatory.. not in the afterlife anywho.

 

[Bill]

what is your faith?

You know my faith.

When God has it rain, does He only let the rain fall on Christians and not Jews? Or if God allows a hurricane, does it only go on the unfaithful or is it both the faithful and the unfaithful?

The same happens when God reaches out to me and has me reach out to a person. I don't go there to teach them to be Catholic, I go there to bring them back to the Father.

In heaven no one claims to be of One Faith or another, they always claim to be children of God

 

[Christ4Ever]

Too many what if scenarios @KingJ
Speculating about the impossible benefits no one.

@Bill - Individuals are either brothers or sisters in Christ Jesus, or they are not, though they may well become so in the future. We pray for all who do not yet know Him as Lord and Savior. There is only one church, and that is Jesus as the Head of it and we as the Body of Christ belong to Him.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Dave M]

In heaven no one claims to be of One Faith

I think maybe you are mixing up faith and denomination, in heaven we will not need faith. Faith the believing in the unseen.

Hebrews 11:1​

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

 

[Rhema]

When God has it rain, does He only let the rain fall on Christians and not Jews? Or if God allows a hurricane, does it only go on the unfaithful or is it both the faithful and the unfaithful?

That almost sounds like Universalism. Does salvation follow the paths of rain and the hurricane?

(Not that I think you to be a Universalist.)

Rhema

 

[KingJ]

Too many what if scenarios @KingJ
Speculating about the impossible benefits no one.

I am not speculating about the impossible. Please see post # 48.

 

[KingJ]

Except there's no purgatory.. not in the afterlife anywho.

And that fact should tell us that God would then properly vet people before grafting them into heaven.

 

[KingJ]

​

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.​

(Isaiah 45:7 KJV)

We live in a space where everything is created by God. I can do you one better than 'create', God placed the devil with Adam and Eve.

It is very important to grasp the fact that in 'God the creator's space', creating evil is not the same as committing evil.

It is a Christians 'one' job to explain why God would create evil and place the devil in Eden. As opposed to further trying to incriminate Him!!!

 

[KingJ]

what is evil please tell us your definition

This is an important topic. I will create a new thread to discuss this and not further derail this one.