Talk Jesus Statement of Faith

[First and the Last]

1 Corinthians 15:24-28:
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

This passage means that the role of the Son, Jesus Christ in his mediatorial and redemptive function, will be fulfilled and completed. Once the purpose of the Son's role in redemption is accomplished, the Sonship will be subject to God, leading to God being "all in all."

Since the role of the Son of God is temporary and not eternal, why did God choose to reveal Himself through the Son? Why did He beget the Son? The primary purpose of the Son is to be our Savior. The work of salvation required many roles that only a human being could fulfill, including the roles of sacrifice, propitiation, substitute, kinsman-redeemer, reconciler, mediator, advocate, high priest, last Adam, and example. These terms overlap in many ways, but each represents an important aspect of the work of salvation that, according to the plan of God, could only be done by a human being.

According to God’s plan, the shedding of blood was necessary for the remission of human sins (Hebrews 9:22). The blood of animals could not take away human sin because animals are inferior to humans (Hebrews 10:4). No other human could purchase redemption for someone else because all had sinned and so deserved the penalty of death for themselves (Romans 3:23; 6:23). Only God was sinless, but He did not have flesh and blood. Therefore, God prepared a body for Himself (Hebrews 10:5), that He might live a sinless life in flesh and shed innocent blood to save humanity.

He became flesh and blood so that He could through death defeat the devil and deliver humanity (Hebrews 2:14-15). In this way Christ is our propitiation—the means by which we obtain forgiveness, the satisfaction of God’s justice, the appeasement of God’s holy wrath (Romans 3:25). The sacrifice of Christ is the means by which God pardons our sin without compromising His righteousness. We are saved today through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ—through the offering of the Son of God (Hebrews 10:10-20; John 3:16). Thus the Son is the sacrifice and propitiation for our sins.

When the Son of God became a sacrifice, He also became a substitute for us. He died in our place, bore our sins, and paid the penalty of death for our sins (Isaiah 53:5-6; I Peter 2:24). He was more than a martyr; He actually took our place. He tasted death for every person (Hebrews 2:9). Of course, the only way Jesus could be our substitute and die in our place was by coming in flesh as a descendant of Adam.

Through His humanity, Jesus Christ is able to mediate, that is, to go between humanity and God and represent humanity to God. As a mediator, Jesus reconciles us to God; He brings us back into fellowship with God (II Corinthians 5:18-19). The gap between a holy God and sinful humans was bridged by the sinless man Jesus Christ: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (I Timothy 2:5).

We should notice how carefully Paul maintained the oneness of God in this verse. There is no distinction in God, but a distinction between God and the man Christ Jesus. There are not two personalities in God; the duality is in Jesus as God and Jesus as man. It is not God who mediates between God and humans, nor is it “God the Son” who does so. Rather it is the man Jesus who mediates; only a sinless man could approach a holy God on behalf of humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The Greatest mystery is not whether God is One or Three. The greatest mystery is how an all full powerful God can be contained in a human body and be sinless.

There is another aspect of Christ’s victory over sin in the flesh. Not only did Jesus come in the flesh to die, but He also came to give us an example of an overcoming life so that we could follow in His footsteps (I Peter 2:21). He showed us how to live victoriously over sin in the flesh. He became the Word of God enacted in flesh (John 1:1). He became the living Word so that we could understand clearly what God wanted us to be like. Of course, He also gives us power to follow His example. Just as we are reconciled by His death, we are saved by His life (Romans 5:10). His Spirit gives us the power to live the righteous life that He wants us to live (Acts 1:8; Romans 8:4).

 

[Charlie24]

1 Corinthians 15:24-28:
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

This passage means that the role of the Son, Jesus Christ in his mediatorial and redemptive function, will be fulfilled and completed. Once the purpose of the Son's role in redemption is accomplished, the Sonship will be subject to God, leading to God being "all in all."

Since the role of the Son of God is temporary and not eternal, why did God choose to reveal Himself through the Son? Why did He beget the Son? The primary purpose of the Son is to be our Savior. The work of salvation required many roles that only a human being could fulfill, including the roles of sacrifice, propitiation, substitute, kinsman-redeemer, reconciler, mediator, advocate, high priest, last Adam, and example. These terms overlap in many ways, but each represents an important aspect of the work of salvation that, according to the plan of God, could only be done by a human being.

According to God’s plan, the shedding of blood was necessary for the remission of human sins (Hebrews 9:22). The blood of animals could not take away human sin because animals are inferior to humans (Hebrews 10:4). No other human could purchase redemption for someone else because all had sinned and so deserved the penalty of death for themselves (Romans 3:23; 6:23). Only God was sinless, but He did not have flesh and blood. Therefore, God prepared a body for Himself (Hebrews 10:5), that He might live a sinless life in flesh and shed innocent blood to save humanity.

He became flesh and blood so that He could through death defeat the devil and deliver humanity (Hebrews 2:14-15). In this way Christ is our propitiation—the means by which we obtain forgiveness, the satisfaction of God’s justice, the appeasement of God’s holy wrath (Romans 3:25). The sacrifice of Christ is the means by which God pardons our sin without compromising His righteousness. We are saved today through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ—through the offering of the Son of God (Hebrews 10:10-20; John 3:16). Thus the Son is the sacrifice and propitiation for our sins.

When the Son of God became a sacrifice, He also became a substitute for us. He died in our place, bore our sins, and paid the penalty of death for our sins (Isaiah 53:5-6; I Peter 2:24). He was more than a martyr; He actually took our place. He tasted death for every person (Hebrews 2:9). Of course, the only way Jesus could be our substitute and die in our place was by coming in flesh as a descendant of Adam.

Through His humanity, Jesus Christ is able to mediate, that is, to go between humanity and God and represent humanity to God. As a mediator, Jesus reconciles us to God; He brings us back into fellowship with God (II Corinthians 5:18-19). The gap between a holy God and sinful humans was bridged by the sinless man Jesus Christ: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (I Timothy 2:5).

We should notice how carefully Paul maintained the oneness of God in this verse. There is no distinction in God, but a distinction between God and the man Christ Jesus. There are not two personalities in God; the duality is in Jesus as God and Jesus as man. It is not God who mediates between God and humans, nor is it “God the Son” who does so. Rather it is the man Jesus who mediates; only a sinless man could approach a holy God on behalf of humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The Greatest mystery is not whether God is One or Three. The greatest mystery is how an all full powerful God can be contained in a human body and be sinless.

There is another aspect of Christ’s victory over sin in the flesh. Not only did Jesus come in the flesh to die, but He also came to give us an example of an overcoming life so that we could follow in His footsteps (I Peter 2:21). He showed us how to live victoriously over sin in the flesh. He became the Word of God enacted in flesh (John 1:1). He became the living Word so that we could understand clearly what God wanted us to be like. Of course, He also gives us power to follow His example. Just as we are reconciled by His death, we are saved by His life (Romans 5:10). His Spirit gives us the power to live the righteous life that He wants us to live (Acts 1:8; Romans 8:4).

This concept of the Sonship coming to an end is incorrect!

Hebrews 7:17

"For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

Christ became the High Priest through His atoning work on the Cross and His resurrection, as a man. His Priesthood is superior to the Levitical priesthood, as the author of Hebrews has shown us.

One had to be from the tribe of Levi to be a priest, it was the Law. The Levitical priesthood addressed only the Jews. In order to address the Gentile world, and to be the High Priest of both Jew and Gentile, Christ had to be born outside the tribe of Levi. Christ was born of the tribe of Judah to accomplish this, so He could be the High priest of both the Jews and the Gentiles. All of this done in His humanity.

He accomplished all of this as a man. He ascended into heaven as a man in the glorified flesh and He will return the second time in the glorified flesh. In fact, He will remain a man as our High Priest forever. His humanity will never end, therefore, His Sonship will never end.

All that Christ accomplished for man He did as a man. His humanity is how He associates with us.

 

[Curtis]

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[Charlie24]

This concept of the Sonship coming to an end is incorrect!

Hebrews 7:17

"For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

Christ became the High Priest through His atoning work on the Cross and His resurrection, as a man. His Priesthood is superior to the Levitical priesthood, as the author of Hebrews has shown us.

One had to be from the tribe of Levi to be a priest, it was the Law. The Levitical priesthood addressed only the Jews. In order to address the Gentile world, and to be the High Priest of both Jew and Gentile, Christ had to be born outside the tribe of Levi. Christ was born of the tribe of Judah to accomplish this, so He could be the High priest of both the Jews and the Gentiles. All of this done in His humanity.

He accomplished all of this as a man. He ascended into heaven as a man in the glorified flesh and He will return the second time in the glorified flesh. In fact, He will remain a man as our High Priest forever. His humanity will never end, therefore, His Sonship will never end.

All that Christ accomplished for man He did as a man. His humanity is how He associates with us.

Something I forgot to add.

Christ became the High Priest not after the Levitical order that addressed only the Jews, but after the order of Melchisedec, a man whom Abraham paid a tithe, one tenth of all he had.

This would have been a game changer for the Jews, who respected Abraham as the father of the Hebrews.

 

[First and the Last]

This concept of the Sonship coming to an end is incorrect!

Hebrews 7:17

"For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

Christ became the High Priest through His atoning work on the Cross and His resurrection, as a man. His Priesthood is superior to the Levitical priesthood, as the author of Hebrews has shown us.

One had to be from the tribe of Levi to be a priest, it was the Law. The Levitical priesthood addressed only the Jews. In order to address the Gentile world, and to be the High Priest of both Jew and Gentile, Christ had to be born outside the tribe of Levi. Christ was born of the tribe of Judah to accomplish this, so He could be the High priest of both the Jews and the Gentiles. All of this done in His humanity.

He accomplished all of this as a man. He ascended into heaven as a man in the glorified flesh and He will return the second time in the glorified flesh. In fact, He will remain a man as our High Priest forever. His humanity will never end, therefore, His Sonship will never end.

All that Christ accomplished for man He did as a man. His humanity is how He associates with us.

The Lord’s glorified human body is immortal just like ours will be (I John 3:2; I Corinthians 15:50-54). Although the glorified body of Christ will continue to exist, all the reasons for the reign of the Son will be gone and all the roles played by the Son will be over. Even the Son will be placed under subjection so that God may be all in all. It is in this sense that the Sonship will end. He we no longer be called Son he will just be God our High Priest and King forever.

 

[First and the Last]

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

That is right God never changes

 

[Charlie24]

The Lord’s glorified human body is immortal just like ours will be (I John 3:2; I Corinthians 15:50-54). Although the glorified body of Christ will continue to exist, all the reasons for the reign of the Son will be gone and all the roles played by the Son will be over. Even the Son will be placed under subjection so that God may be all in all. It is in this sense that the Sonship will end. He we no longer be called Son he will just be God our High Priest and King forever.

NO, it's not in the sense the Sonship will end. You have interpreted that, although I don't know how or why!

There's no implication whatsoever of that, you need much more than this to establish your claim!

 

[Charlie24]

NO, it's not in the sense the Sonship will end. You have interpreted that, although I don't know how or why!

There's no implication whatsoever of that, you need much more than this to establish your claim!

@First and the Last, there's nothing wrong with running against the grain, that is, if you have the Scriptural support to do that.

My suggestion is to find that Scriptural support or stop running against the grain!

 

[Curtis]

People under the influence of the powers of darkness can not believe in what they do not know and they certainly can not experience what they do not believe.

 

[First and the Last]

NO, it's not in the sense the Sonship will end. You have interpreted that, although I don't know how or why!

There's no implication whatsoever of that, you need much more than this to establish your claim!

I Corinthians 15:23-28 This passage of Scripture is impossible to explain if one thinks of a “God the Son” who is coequal and coeternal with God the Father. But it is easily explained if we realize that “Son of God” refers to a specific role that God temporarily assumed for the purpose of redemption. When the reasons for the Sonship cease to exist, God will cease acting in His role as Son, and return to His original role as Father, Creator, and Ruler of all. Ephesians 5:27 describes this same scene in different terms: “That he [Christ] might present it to himself a glorious church.” Jesus will present the church to Himself! How can this be, in light of I Corinthians 15:24, which describes the Son presenting the kingdom to the Father? The answer is clear: God in His role as Son, and as His final act as Son, will present the church to Himself in His role as God the Father.

We find another indication that the Sonship has an ending. In Acts 2:34-35, Peter quoted David in Psalm 110:1: “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand until I make thy foes thy footstool.”

After Satan is cast into the lake of fire and all sin is judged at the last judgment (Revelation 20), there will be no further need for the Son to exercise the throne of power. Jesus Christ will cease acting in His Sonship role and will be God, King and High Priest forever. Now in heaven we will most likely still refer to Him as God, Jesus or Lord or even My King.

Does this mean that God will cease using the resurrected and glorified body of Christ? We believe that Jesus will continue to use His glorified body throughout eternity. This is indicated by Revelation 22:3-4, which describes a visible God even after the last judgment and after the creation of the new heaven and earth: “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: and they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.” Jesus is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:21),

 

[Charlie24]

I Corinthians 15:23-28 This passage of Scripture is impossible to explain if one thinks of a “God the Son” who is coequal and coeternal with God the Father. But it is easily explained if we realize that “Son of God” refers to a specific role that God temporarily assumed for the purpose of redemption. When the reasons for the Sonship cease to exist, God will cease acting in His role as Son, and return to His original role as Father, Creator, and Ruler of all. Ephesians 5:27 describes this same scene in different terms: “That he [Christ] might present it to himself a glorious church.” Jesus will present the church to Himself! How can this be, in light of I Corinthians 15:24, which describes the Son presenting the kingdom to the Father? The answer is clear: God in His role as Son, and as His final act as Son, will present the church to Himself in His role as God the Father.

We find another indication that the Sonship has an ending. In Acts 2:34-35, Peter quoted David in Psalm 110:1: “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand until I make thy foes thy footstool.”

After Satan is cast into the lake of fire and all sin is judged at the last judgment (Revelation 20), there will be no further need for the Son to exercise the throne of power. Jesus Christ will cease acting in His Sonship role and will be God, King and High Priest forever. Now in heaven we will most likely still refer to Him as God, Jesus or Lord or even My King.

Does this mean that God will cease using the resurrected and glorified body of Christ? We believe that Jesus will continue to use His glorified body throughout eternity. This is indicated by Revelation 22:3-4, which describes a visible God even after the last judgment and after the creation of the new heaven and earth: “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: and they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.” Jesus is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:21),

No, No ,No! The "Son of God is not a role to be played. He is a person and must be looked at as a person.

To look at Him as the Son, and it just being a role to be played is standing at the threshold of blasphemy.

 

[First and the Last]

No, No ,No! The "Son of God is not a role to be played. He is a person and must be looked at as a person.

To look at Him as the Son, and it just being a role to be played is standing at the threshold of blasphemy.

Did the Son of God have a role to play in the plan of Salvation or not?

 

[Charlie24]

Did the Son of God have a role to play in the plan of Salvation or not?

Roles are temporary, the person of Jesus Christ/The Son of God is not temporary.

As I said, this is bordering blasphemy.

All of who Christ is and what he has done is permanent. Why can't you understand this?

 

[First and the Last]

@First and the Last, there's nothing wrong with running against the grain, that is, if you have the Scriptural support to do that.

My suggestion is to find that Scriptural support or stop running against the grain!

I quote scripture with almost everything I post.

 

[Charlie24]

I quote scripture with almost everything I post.

Well then, show me the Scripture where the Son is no longer the Son in the future.

That will settle all of this.

 

[First and the Last]

Roles are temporary, the person of Jesus Christ/The Son of God is not temporary.

As I said, this is bordering blasphemy.

All of who Christ is and what he has done is permanent. Why can't you understand this?

The Sonship—or the role of the Son—began with the child conceived in the womb of Mary. The Scriptures make this perfectly clear. Galatians 4:4 says, “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.” The Son came in the fullness of time—not in eternity past. The Son was made of a woman—not begotten eternally. The Son was made under the law—not before the law. (See also Hebrews 7:28.) The term begotten refers to the conception of Jesus described in Matthew 1:18-20 and Luke 1:35. The Son of God was begotten when the Spirit of God miraculously caused conception to take place in the womb of Mary. This is evident from the very meaning of the word begotten and also from Luke 1:35, which explains that because the Holy Ghost would overshadow Mary, therefore her child would be the Son of God. We should notice the future tense in this verse: the child to be born “shall be called the Son of God.”

Jesus Was God from the Beginning of His Human Life God was manifest in the flesh through Jesus Christ, but at what point in His life did God indwell the Son? The Bible unequivocally declares that the fullness of God was in Jesus from the moment when Jesus’ human life began.

We should consider the dual nature of Christ in the framework of biblical terminology. The term “Father” refers to God Himself—God in all His deity. When we speak of the eternal Spirit of God, we mean God Himself, the Father. “God the Father,” therefore, is a perfectly acceptable and biblical phrase to use for God (Titus 1:4). However, the Bible does not use the phrase “God the Son” even one time. It is not a correct term because the Son of God refers to the humanity of Jesus Christ. The Bible defines the Son of God as the child born of Mary, not as the eternal Spirit of God (Luke 1:35). “Son of God” may refer to the human nature or it may refer to God manifested in flesh—that is, deity in the human nature.

“Son of God” never means the incorporeal Spirit alone, however. We can never use “Son” correctly apart from the humanity of Jesus Christ. The terms “Son of God,” “Son of man,” and “Son” are appropriate and biblical. However, the term “God the Son” is inappropriate because it equates the Son with deity alone, and therefore it is unscriptural.

 

[First and the Last]

All of who Christ is and what he has done is permanent. Why can't you understand this?

I believe that

 

[Charlie24]

The Sonship—or the role of the Son—began with the child conceived in the womb of Mary. The Scriptures make this perfectly clear. Galatians 4:4 says, “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.” The Son came in the fullness of time—not in eternity past. The Son was made of a woman—not begotten eternally. The Son was made under the law—not before the law. (See also Hebrews 7:28.) The term begotten refers to the conception of Jesus described in Matthew 1:18-20 and Luke 1:35. The Son of God was begotten when the Spirit of God miraculously caused conception to take place in the womb of Mary. This is evident from the very meaning of the word begotten and also from Luke 1:35, which explains that because the Holy Ghost would overshadow Mary, therefore her child would be the Son of God. We should notice the future tense in this verse: the child to be born “shall be called the Son of God.”

Jesus Was God from the Beginning of His Human Life God was manifest in the flesh through Jesus Christ, but at what point in His life did God indwell the Son? The Bible unequivocally declares that the fullness of God was in Jesus from the moment when Jesus’ human life began.

We should consider the dual nature of Christ in the framework of biblical terminology. The term “Father” refers to God Himself—God in all His deity. When we speak of the eternal Spirit of God, we mean God Himself, the Father. “God the Father,” therefore, is a perfectly acceptable and biblical phrase to use for God (Titus 1:4). However, the Bible does not use the phrase “God the Son” even one time. It is not a correct term because the Son of God refers to the humanity of Jesus Christ. The Bible defines the Son of God as the child born of Mary, not as the eternal Spirit of God (Luke 1:35). “Son of God” may refer to the human nature or it may refer to God manifested in flesh—that is, deity in the human nature.

“Son of God” never means the incorporeal Spirit alone, however. We can never use “Son” correctly apart from the humanity of Jesus Christ. The terms “Son of God,” “Son of man,” and “Son” are appropriate and biblical. However, the term “God the Son” is inappropriate because it equates the Son with deity alone, and therefore it is unscriptural.

Yes, the Son of God had a beginning in His humanity, He was begotten at a certain time in history. On this we agree!

He also became our Saviour at a certain time in history, and our High Priest at a certain time in history.

Will He no longer be our Saviour and High Priest in the future?

All that He is will last through eternity, including being the Son of God!

 

[First and the Last]

Well then, show me the Scripture where the Son is no longer the Son in the future.

That will settle all of this.

I believe that God will not "cease to be the Son" in terms of ceasing to be Jesus Christ, but rather that the specific roles and functions associated with the Sonship—particularly those of mediation and redemption—will be completed. In my view, Jesus Christ, who is the manifestation of the one true God, will continue to exist eternally. However, the distinct role of the Son as mediator will be fulfilled, and God will be understood fully and completely as one.

After the final defeat of all enemies, including death, the Son will subject Himself to the Father. I interpret this as the completion of the Son's mediatorial role, leading to God being "all in all."

While passages affirms the eternal nature of Jesus' priesthood, I believe that His intercessory role as mediator will reach its fulfillment once His redemptive work is fully accomplished.

 

[First and the Last]

Will He no longer be our Saviour and High Priest in the future?

All that He is will last through eternity, including being the Son of God!

He will always be our Saviour and High Priest throughout eternity, I never doubted that at all. But on that side of Heaven I most likely wouldn't refer to Him as the Son of God I would just simply call Him God, maybe that's just me.