The Error of Dispensationalism

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[God's Truth]

@Dave M
@PloughBoy
@Bethel
@God's Truth
@joestue

'Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss
for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:
for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,
and do count them but dung,
that I may win Christ,
And be found in Him,
not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law,
but that which is through the faith of Christ,
the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know Him,
and the power of His resurrection,
and the fellowship of His sufferings,
being made conformable unto His death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.'
(Philippians 3:8-10)

Hello there,

Coming back to this thread today, I thought I would listen to the video clip after all, and see what it had to say. However from the very first sentence I realised it would be a complete waste of time, because it was obvious that the man did not know what he was talking about, so I turned it off.

The goal of every believer is to go on to know Christ in all His fulness, and thereby know God Himself: for Christ makes Him manifest. So all true Bible study has this as it's object. I personally have found the dispensational approach to reading the Word of God very helpful, but it is merely a means to an end, and that end is as stated:- To know Christ, and be found in Him.

I see no profit in defending a means of study, for it is what is being studied that is important, not the means: and in the case of each one of us, it is the Bible that we study - The Word of Truth. Now that is worth defending.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hello complete, thanks for including me in the discussion. Would you mind explaining more to me what you mean? What do you mean the man did not know what he was talking about? What exactly is the "dipensational approach to reading the Word of God"?

 

[God's Truth]

@Dave M
@PloughBoy
@Bethel
@God's Truth
@joestue

'God, who at sundry times and in divers manners
spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son,
(Hebrews 1:1-4)

Hello again,

True Dispensationalists acknowledge the truth of Hebrews 1:1-2 (above).

1) God has spoken!
2) 'at sundry times' as well as 'in divers manners'.

* If we are to understand what He has spoken, we must learn to distinguish, not only the various peoples to whom He has spoken, and the 'sundry times' at which He has spoken to them, but also the 'divers manners' in which He did so.

* In Hebrews 1:1-2, the 'time' when God spoke 'to the fathers' is set in contrast with the time in which He hath 'spoken unto us'. The 'time' in which 'He spake by the prophets' stands in contrast with the time in which 'He spake by His Son.' And the 'time past' is obviously distinguished from 'these last days' .

* So that Times and Dispensations are inseparable from the Divine Word: not only the Times in which the Words were spoken, but the times of which they were spoken, and to which they refer. These different times are called Dispensations. Dispensation meaning 'the act of administering', or the time during which that administering is carried on.

* My job title at one time was, an 'administrator', because I helped look after the daily administration of the affairs of the business that I worked for. I dispensed the business administration on a daily basis. This is what Paul was called upon to do, when He was given the revelation of God concerning the 'fellowship' (ie., 'dispensaation') of the mystery (Ephesians 3:9 ): he dispensed God's Truth for that 'Time':-

'For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:​

but if against my will,​

a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.'​

(1Cor. 9:17)​

​

'That in the dispensation of the fulness of times​

He might gather together in one all things in Christ,​

both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;​

even in Him:'​

(Eph 1:10)​

'If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God​

which is given me to you-ward:'​

(Eph 3:2)​

​

'Whereof I am made a minister,​

according to the dispensation of God​

which is given to me for you,​

to fulfil the word of God; ... '​

(Col, 1:25)​

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The Old Testament was about earthy man, and earthly things. See Romans 7:4-6.

The New Testament is about the spiritual. See John 6:63.

The Old Testament was prophecies about what was coming. See Romans 16:26.

The New Testament is prophecies fulfilled, and revelations revealed about the spiritual. See Ephesians 6:19.

 

[God's Truth]

@Dave M
@PloughBoy
@Bethel
@God's Truth
@joestue

Hello yet again,

God's principles of administration were always perfectly adapted to the 'times and seasons' during which they were carried out. The Lord's principles of administration with Adam before the 'Fall', must have been quite different from those with Adam's immediate posterity after the 'Fall'. His administration with Israel 'under the law' was carried out on different principles from those which are now in operation during this present administration of grace. These again are obviously quite different from those which will characterise God's coming administration in Judgment. And these, again, will be necessarily quite different from those which will belong to the administration of glory in 'the fulness of times' when all things shall be gathered together in One under the Headship of Christ (Epheisians 1:10).

* The present administration of God is in Grace; not in Law, Judgment, or Glory. It belongs to the time which is called 'the Administration of the Mystery' ( or Secret): that Secret which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men,' (Ephesians 3:5). It was 'hid in God from the beginning of the world' (Ephesians 3:9). It was 'kept secret since the world began' (Romans 16:25). But Paul was made the special Administrator of all the truth connected with it. Committed to him by God.

* So, we see various administrations suited to the various and corresponding Times and Dispensations, during which they were carried out, and in force. In 'other ages' certain truths were hidden, which are contrasted with the truths which are 'now revealed.'

* In the same way the Lord Jesus said, 'I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now' (John 16:12).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Jesus came with grace, and he is the mystery revealed, he is the way even Gentiles who did not get circumcised and come into the first covenant would get saved

 

[God's Truth]

Those that think you can keep the law, or that anyone was justified by the law, or that the law leads to salvation. I urge you to read Romans, several times.

@God's Truth

Scriptures were given to you about those who were righteous/justified by the law.

Are you going to accept those scriptures for saying what they say?

As for the old way leading to salvation, of course not to the salvation we have in the new law, for the old law did not reconcile one to God and make people perfect as the the law does.

You do believe there is a new law, don't you?

Do you believe a person in the old testament times had to do the purification works or they would not be a child of God?

you say David kept the law,, did he not kill and commit adultery,,, that is braking the law is it not?

David was a man after God's own heart, for he did everything God told him to do---

1 Kings 9:4 "As for you, if you will walk before Me as your father David walked, in integrity of heart and uprightness, doing according to all that I have commanded you and will keep My statutes and My ordinances,

1 Kings 14:8 and tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you-- yet you have not been like My servant David, who kept My commandments and who followed Me with all his heart, to do only that which was right in My sight;

David is an prophetic of the coming new covenant---
David sinned, confessed his sins, repented of them, and was forgiven.
He is an example of the new covenant.

The new covenant is about confessing your sins to Jesus, repenting of them, and calling on Jesus to help you, to save you, to give you his Spirit.

David still suffered the affects of sin, but he did not lose his relationship with God.
Again, David was a glimpse into the salvation we would have through Jesus.
It doesn't mean a person can be saved through Jesus and keep sinning, it means that if a person confessing their sins, repents, and works our their salvation by really changing and training themselves, then they can keep their relationship with God in this life and the after life.

Romans 3

10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

That scripture is about AFTER Jesus came. Since Jesus, no one will be justified in God's sight, for since Jesus and the new covenant, one can only have justification through Jesus.

The old law's purification/ceremonial works used to justify a person, but now, Jesus does the purification for us, and a better purification, just by after our confessing and repenting of our sins---we believe, have faith, that Jesus' blood shed on the cross washes us clean, and that by asking him...calling on him, he will give us his Spirit to live in us.

 

[God's Truth]

@PloughBoy
@Bethel
@God's Truth
@joestue

'Even as Abraham believed God,
and it was accounted to him for righteousness.'
(Gal 3:6)

Hello @Dave M,

Coming back to your initial question made to me regarding salvation. God's plan of salvation (from the grave) has always been the same. In Hebrews chapter 11, each person referred to had faith in the message God had given to him or her, and believing they acted upon it. They were men and women of faith. Within each dispensation God's plans change, but the plan of salvation (from the grave) is a universal truth, it never changes. Today, when we hear and believe the good news of God concerning His Son, and trust in Him as our Saviour and Lord then we are saved from the power of death, and receive the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus.

'But these are written, that ye might believe
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through His name. '
(John 20:31)

For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works,
lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'
(Eph 2:8-10)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

What do you mean when you say the plan of salvation from the grave?
God made the plan for salvation to be through Jesus before anything was created.

 

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Replies #62 #63 & #64

Hello @God's Truth,

Thank you or your responses.

The speaker on the video clip in the OP began by saying that Dispensationalists completely separate the Old Testament from the New Testament, which is untrue. For Matthew continues on through the gospels from Malachi, linked as they are by the prophecy concerning the coming of John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus Christ, and it's fulfilment in the gospel record.

* That and his use of the word 'heresy' was enough for me, so I turned it off, without proceeding further.

* You ask me about dispensationalist teaching, ( https://believer.com/ ) - This is a link to a website which is one which I visit, and which has information concerning dispensational teaching, which can explain it far better than I.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

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What do you mean when you say the plan of salvation from the grave?
God made the plan for salvation to be through Jesus before anything was created.

Hello @God's Truth,

The believer is indeed saved from death through Christ's death and resurrection. For death no longer has power over Him, he has passed from death to life. He will be raised to life eternal at the appearing of Christ Jesus, our risen Lord and Saviour. For our life is hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3).

Death has no more dominion over him, in Christ Jesus. Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[God's Truth]

Replies #62 #63 & #64

Hello @God's Truth,

Thank you or your responses.

The speaker on the video clip in the OP began by saying that Dispensationalists completely separate the Old Testament from the New Testament, which is untrue. For Matthew continues on through the gospels from Malachi, linked as they are by the prophecy concerning the coming of John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus Christ, and it's fulfilment in the gospel record.

* That and his use of the word 'heresy' was enough for me, so I turned it off, without proceeding further.

* You ask me about dispensationalist teaching, ( Believer.com - Home Page ) - This is a link to a website which is one which I visit, and which has information concerning dispensational teaching, which can explain it far better than I.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks for the link, I will try to check it out today, but would like to know if you would continue discussion about what that link speaks about if I have further discussions?

 

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Thanks for the link, I will try to check it out today, but would like to know if you would continue discussion about what that link speaks about if I have further discussions?

Hello @God's Truth,

Yes, I will do my best.

 

[God's Truth]

Hello @God's Truth,

The believer is indeed saved from death through Christ's death and resurrection. For death no longer has power over Him, he has passed from death to life. He will be raised to life eternal at the appearing of Christ Jesus, our risen Lord and Saviour. For our life is hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3).

Death has no more dominion over him, in Christ Jesus. Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

When Jesus had his earthly ministry, he taught us the Way---the way to become an heir, a child of God.
He taught his last will and testament.
Like all last will and testaments, it states who is an heir and what the conditions of the inheritance are.
It also says what the heirs will receive.

Then, like all last wills and testaments, it does not go into force until the person who made the will dies.

When Jesus died, all could come to him to get saved, by first becoming a child of God, an heir, and then they receive the gift, the Holy Spirit, and they are at that time reconciled to God.

There is no such thing as the false teaching of just believe and that is it. That faith alone is dead and does not save.

We have to believe that we have to obey Jesus.

Jesus tells us what to do to become a child of God's and have eternal life.

He says we must humble ourselves as little children, we must confess our sins and repent of them and call on him.

 

[God's Truth]

Hello @God's Truth,

Yes, I will do my best.

This is so good to hear. Thanks.

 

[God's Truth]

strongly disagree with you, the bible teaches only Jesus did the work of law, all others failed they could not keep the law, the law only worked if you kept it perfectly. No man alive was able to keep them,

NO one is justified by the law,

The Jews used to be justified by the purification works of the law, but no more since Jesus. Jesus is the only way to be justified now.

Galatians 3:1-29​

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— .

Galatians 2:21​

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3:10​

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

The Galatians were talked into doing the old law's works, which are the purification works, such as circumcision in the flesh, various external baths, the observance of special days, and the dietary law, and the sacrifice of animals.

The Jews talked the Gentile Christians into observing special days and getting circumcised.

Those purification works are to be done no more by anyone.

 

[complete]

When Jesus had his earthly ministry, he taught us the Way---the way to become an heir, a child of God.
He taught his last will and testament.
Like all last will and testaments, it states who is an heir and what the conditions of the inheritance are.
It also says what the heirs will receive.

Then, like all last wills and testaments, it does not go into force until the person who made the will dies.

When Jesus died, all could come to him to get saved, by first becoming a child of God, an heir, and then they receive the gift, the Holy Spirit, and they are at that time reconciled to God.

There is no such thing as the false teaching of just believe and that is it. That faith alone is dead and does not save.

We have to believe that we have to obey Jesus.

Jesus tells us what to do to become a child of God's and have eternal life.

He says we must humble ourselves as little children, we must confess our sins and repent of them and call on him.

Hello @God's Truth,

Christ Himself is spoken of as being an heir, and we share in His inheritance. We died with Christ, were buried, quickened, raised and have ascended with Him in the eyes of God, and are sat in Him at God's right hand, awaiting His appearing when we too will appear with Him.

So, we have died and our life is now hid with Christ in God. The company of believers which is Christ's Body is God's own inheritance, in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 1). Redeemed Israel will be God's inheritance upon the earth .

We are indeed saved by grace alone and not by works, we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which He has already prepared for us.

Going offline now.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[PloughBoy]

@Dave M
@PloughBoy
@Bethel
@God's Truth
@joestue

'God, who at sundry times and in divers manners
spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son,
(Hebrews 1:1-4)

Hello again,

True Dispensationalists acknowledge the truth of Hebrews 1:1-2 (above).

1) God has spoken!
2) 'at sundry times' as well as 'in divers manners'.

* If we are to understand what He has spoken, we must learn to distinguish, not only the various peoples to whom He has spoken, and the 'sundry times' at which He has spoken to them, but also the 'divers manners' in which He did so.

* In Hebrews 1:1-2, the 'time' when God spoke 'to the fathers' is set in contrast with the time in which He hath 'spoken unto us'. The 'time' in which 'He spake by the prophets' stands in contrast with the time in which 'He spake by His Son.' And the 'time past' is obviously distinguished from 'these last days' .

* So that Times and Dispensations are inseparable from the Divine Word: not only the Times in which the Words were spoken, but the times of which they were spoken, and to which they refer. These different times are called Dispensations. Dispensation meaning 'the act of administering', or the time during which that administering is carried on.

* My job title at one time was, an 'administrator', because I helped look after the daily administration of the affairs of the business that I worked for. I dispensed the business administration on a daily basis. This is what Paul was called upon to do, when He was given the revelation of God concerning the 'fellowship' (ie., 'dispensaation') of the mystery (Ephesians 3:9 ): he dispensed God's Truth for that 'Time':-

'For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:​

but if against my will,​

a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.'​

(1Cor. 9:17)​

​

'That in the dispensation of the fulness of times​

He might gather together in one all things in Christ,​

both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;​

even in Him:'​

(Eph 1:10)​

'If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God​

which is given me to you-ward:'​

(Eph 3:2)​

​

'Whereof I am made a minister,​

according to the dispensation of God​

which is given to me for you,​

to fulfil the word of God; ... '​

(Col, 1:25)​

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

1st, you know I like you a lot. And it is very hard for a man like me to hurt, in anyway. “especially” a “Child of GOD” like you.
I have taken time and read your words and how you presented them.

But now I will “Draw The Long Bow”, out, “The English Bow” and try my best to “Hit The Mark” from a long way out.

Jeremiah, 13: 26,27
(NIV)
“I will pull up your skirts over face that your shame maybe seen,
Your adulteries and lustful neighings, your your shameless prostitution! I have seen your detestable acts on the hills and in the fields, Woe to you, O Jerusalem! How long will you be unclean?

Proverbs 16.5 (NASB).
“Everyone who is proud in heart is an “abomination” to The LORD. Be assured, he will not go unpunished”.

2 Cor. 12: 7-10 (BSB)

“So to keep me from becoming Conceited, I was given a Thorn in my flesh, a Messenger, of Satan, to Torment me,ff.

For you have spent so much time and effort to what you have label; A “TRUE Dispensationist” meaning; distinguishing from a “Disspensationalist”

‘I am not even going to address that” no matter how many hours or minutes you have on the internet to prove your point”

Moving on, from There!
The topic. “Administration”

Now, trying by best, and it hurts me, more than it is going to hurt you.

Romans 3: 5-7 (BSB) Preferred
“5But if our unrighteousness highlights the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict His wrath on us? I am speaking in human terms.6Certainly not! In that case, how could God judge the world?7However, if my falsehood accentuates God’s truthfulness, to the increase of His glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? 8Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, “Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved!”

who is the “god” of this world, Who is The ruler of this world, who rules “corporations”, who, and where the organizations sits at that determines how this “world” is run. Who are the real “Administrators” of This World, This Kingdom, And if so, how can the practices of This kingdom is to be a “Example of The Kingdom to Come.

And concerning righteousness,

Your quote:
“God’s Principles of “Administration” were “Always Perfectly” perfectly adapted to the times and seasons during which they were carried out”

“administrations”.

I am going to stop here. “Tact and Diplomacy”, Plus, I Iike you to much, and you “fog” my theological thought patterns. Meaning, a clean way, and nothing “Offensive” to be shame of.
But enough, to curve my pen.

 

[God's Truth]

May I ask, what theological school of thought are your basis? Before I decide to engage you. For this is very important, in order to access it, whether it would be futile or not benefiting concerning both of us and the body of “Christ”.

Humbly speaking.

Can you be more specific? I believe we have to obey Jesus' teachings in the New Testament to get saved and to stay saved. I go against faith alone, and Calvin and Lutheran regeneration doctrine.

 

[God's Truth]

You are in error, and I do not have to prove it, The Bible defends it self. I do not have to defend it. You are in error. And if so, then “GOD” the Father has blinded you to this Truth. So no matter what I may do or may say, HE shows “The Light” as HE pleases.

You trying to condemn me only hurts you.

Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

[God's Truth]

Hello @God's Truth,

Christ Himself is spoken of as being an heir, and we share in His inheritance. We died with Christ, were buried, quickened, raised and have ascended with Him in the eyes of God, and are sat in Him at God's right hand, awaiting His appearing when we too will appear with Him.

So, we have died and our life is now hid with Christ in God. The company of believers which is Christ's Body is God's own inheritance, in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 1). Redeemed Israel will be God's inheritance upon the earth .

Jesus tells us how to be an heir and we have to believe him.

We are indeed saved by grace alone and not by works, we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which He has already prepared for us.

People misunderstand Paul when he says "not of works".
Paul is speaking about the purification works of the law.

Paul would not ever say not of obeying Jesus.

Many people misunderstood Paul even in the days of the Apostles.
Peter says the unstable and unlearned misunderstand Paul, and then he warns us to obey, see 2 Peter 3:16, 17, and James calls the people foolish for misunderstanding. See James 2:20.

Going offline now.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I have to go for now too and will try to get on this afternoon or this evening.

 

[PloughBoy]

Can you be more specific? I believe we have to obey Jesus' teachings in the New Testament to get saved and to stay saved. I go against faith alone, and Calvin and Lutheran regeneration doctrine.

I going to say this, in a type of kindness but Strong. You may, have studied the “Doctrines of “John Calvin” & “ Martin Luther” to make so many assessments of These men, theological thoughts. I haven’t and don’t care what they thought, but I have read their “Biographies” on how they “Lived”! in the same way I have read “The Biography of “Jesus The Christ” of GOD, And The Biographies of “The Acts of The Apostles” as They have been Recorded in “The BOOK”. so in essence, I have no idea what you would be referring too, and don’t care.
Not being mean, I just do not care about The Doctoring of “John Calvin or Luther”. And ain’t going to spend the time in studying it.

So you may, address another of your “Caliber”! For I carry a “Colt” not a “Mauser”!

 

[God's Truth]

PloughBoy, you asked me this:

May I ask, what theological school of thought are your basis? Before I decide to engage you. For this is very important, in order to access it, whether it would be futile or not benefiting concerning both of us and the body of “Christ”.

Humbly speaking.

So I replied to you.

So then why did you say to me this:

I going to say this, in a type of kindness but Strong. You may, have studied the “Doctrines of “John Calvin” & “ Martin Luther” to make so many assessments of These men, theological thoughts. I haven’t and don’t care what they thought, but I have read their “Biographies” on how they “Lived”! in the same way I have read “The Biography of “Jesus The Christ” of GOD, And The Biographies of “The Acts of The Apostles” as They have been Recorded in “The BOOK”. so in essence, I have no idea what you would be referring too, and don’t care.
Not being mean, I just do not care about The Doctoring of “John Calvin or Luther”. And ain’t going to spend the time in studying it.

So you may, address another of your “Caliber”! For I carry a “Colt” not a “Mauser”!