The ten commandments helpful?

[papajim]

Your right David, when we are in the flesh we cannot obey the law it is not possible, but we are not in the flesh we are in the Spirit. If you would give me a chance I could explain it to you but it will take time.

Read verses 3, 4 of Romans 8, Romans 3:31

Paul is constantly telling that through faith we can overcome. In chapter 6 Paul tells us that we are dead to sin. The flesh can only sin that is the makeup of the flesh but, in Christ the flesh is to be crucified read also chapter 5.

Turn to Romans chapter 5 verse 19. We read "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Through Adam we all became sinners literaly. so we are talking in the literal sense. So bythe obedience of one (Jesus) many shall be made righteous, literaly.

verse 20, Moreover the law entered that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

Paul is telling us that grace is much stronger than sin. A comformation of verses 19, and 20. Notice that the through the law comes the offence. I suggest that through grace comes the defence which is greater than the offence.

verse 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. So sin which is made know by the law did reign (past tense) brings death, righteousness through Jesus Christ brings life. Sin is death, righteousness is life.

chapter 6 verse 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? I want you to notice what Paul says in verse 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Paul says that we are dead to sin. He is still talking in the literal sense as mentioned in chapter 5 verse 19 We are literaly dead to sin.

Read the rest of chapter 6 and notice in verse 6knowing this, that our old man is crucified whit Him (that would be our sinful flesh the one that cannot obey) that the body of sin might be destroyedhenceforth we should not serve sin.7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

So the law tells us what sin is so that we can understand the offence. But through the grace God our sinful nature is crucified in Christ.

By the flesh I cannot obey
In Christ I can.

If I sin I am in the flesh if I obey then I am in Christ. The law tells me where I am in my spiritual walk with Christ.

Shall I continue?

 

[papajim]

Jiggyfly,
this will be my last post to you.

The confusion is that we are talking about two different aspects of the gospel. You are talking about the imputed righteousness of Christ, I am talking about the imparted and the imputed righteousness of Christ. You hold on to one part of the gospel while completely ignoring the rest. There is plenty of evedince to support the law but you refuse to look and search. In your mind you have nothing more to learn. You have tunnel vision. You are blind and yet you say you see, you say you hear, but yet you choose to be deaf.

Jesus did far more at the cross than you realize and the message is far more powerful than you know.

I'm sorry that it turned out this way. Jesus brought us freedom from all unrighteousness, all I wanted to share is what that is and what that means.

 

[jiggyfly]

Jiggyfly,
this will be my last post to you.

The confusion is that we are talking about two different aspects of the gospel. You are talking about the imputed righteousness of Christ, I am talking about the imparted and the imputed righteousness of Christ. You hold on to one part of the gospel while completely ignoring the rest. There is plenty of evedince to support the law but you refuse to look and search. In your mind you have nothing more to learn. You have tunnel vision. You are blind and yet you say you see, you say you hear, but yet you choose to be deaf.

Jesus did far more at the cross than you realize and the message is far more powerful than you know.

I'm sorry that it turned out this way. Jesus brought us freedom from all unrighteousness, all I wanted to share is what that is and what that means.

I believe the confusion is on your end. But at any rate like you said I have tunnel vision especially when it comes to religious teachings that try to bring others under bondage to the law in any fashion. Your trying to teach something that your confused about so again please refrain from doing it here at TJ. The law has been put away by God, period.

 

[David777]

Dear papajim.

You need to immerse yourself in the New Testament completely.

To those under the law (Jews) Paul reached out to them under the law. But to those without the law (Gentiles) Paul is not under the law.

This written code was done away with at the cross of Christ. Old things have passed away Papajim. Our Holy Spirit recreates us in Jesus. You are under the royal law of Love.

 

[papajim]

I understand what Jesus gave to us it is the perfect righteousness of God, which no longer requires the law. But it is a covenant, an agreement, a pact if you will. It is not what Jesus gave to us that I am questioning, He gave that to every human being. Every man woman and child has been made the prefect righteousness of God in Christ. It is the perfect gift.

You don't understand what it means to be in Christ. You need to learn the rest of the story. Bye the way Paul wrote the letter to the Romans who were the Gentiles.

We recieve that perfect gift through faith. "righteousness comes by faith" our part of the covenant is to believe. The greater our faith the more the gift is manifested in our works, cause and effect. "Faith without works is dead." When we come to the fullness of the faith then we have recieved the gift in full.

Paul says in His letter to the Romans that our flesh, that is our sinful nature needs to be crucified in Christ, we need to be born again so that the old man (our sinful nature) dies and a new man is born, in which babtism is a symbol. Until our old man is completely dead we are still under the law. The fault lies within us not with Him. Does that mean that I need to go out and try and keep the law? absolutely not! It means I need to build a greater relationship with Christ so that He enables me to keep the law. It is His gift working in me, cause and effect.

If you covet you are under the law because the law says "thou shall not covet." If you don't covet that law dosen't apply to you, so you are free from it. That was the gift that Jesus gave to us His perfect obedience to that law so that we no longer need it. Again we recieve that Perfect gift through faith. As we grow up into Christ the law applies to us less and less and when that perfect faith comes we recieve the perfect gift in full.

When someone gives you a gift it dosen't benifit you until you take it. If you don't take it then you don't recieve it. But even taking the gift is a process. First you have to except it in your mind then you have to reach out and take it. (only a metaphor)

In Revelation 14:12 We read about a group of people that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. God's last faithful people on earth. The law is written in thier mind and in thier hearts.

Look at Revelation 19:8 "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." Wouldn't you say that those same saints are the same saints that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. It was the faith of Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit that enabled Him to keep the commandments of God, in which He was our exapmle.

There is just to much in the new testament to prove this point.

You say the law was for the Jews alone but, Paul says in Romans 2:28,29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that of circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Galations3:28,29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Abraham was the father of many nations.

I could go on for days or even weeks giving you scripture to prove the gospel in full. We can't pick one part and make a religion out of it. It must be taken in it's full context or we miss out.

I do appreciate your comments as they have helped me in my walk with Christ. I have meditated on Him and His word day and night in regards to your remarks.
For three nights in a row the Lord has gotten me out of bed to reply to you. Wednesday it was one thirty in the morning, Thursday it was three thirty in the morning and this morning it was two thirty in the morning. The first thing that pops into my head when I get up is to answer you remarks and I can't go back to sleep until I do, if it is not to late. I have to be at work at 7 a.m.

The Lord knows your heart and wants you to know everything about Him so that you can be sactified in the truth.

 

[papajim]

David777

You said that Jesus is the fullfillment of the law in which you are correct, but wouldn't that same Jesus working in you also fullfill the law in you, for it is no longer you but Jesus living in you? Isn't Jesus the same yesterday today and forever?

Isn't that what the gospel is about? I die that Jesus may live!

 

[TouchTestimony]

the volume of responses did come as a surprise, and i wonder why the 10 commandments aren't part of the educational system. can any one point a single bad thing about them???

 

[papajim]

My depest opoligies to jiggyfly for my harsh words against him, and I hope that we will learn to love one another in spite of our differences in the word of God.

papajim

 

[David777]

Dear Papajim.

We need to be far more precise and methodical if we are to solve this problem. Please do not take this debate in a personal way. I have noticed this problem of Law and Grace before. I suspect it has to do with old traditional interpretations of scripture.

So Papajim you said,

"You don't understand what it means to be in Christ. You need to learn the rest of the story. Bye the way Paul wrote the letter to the Romans who were the Gentiles."

Let's look at the above post you made previously, and examine what you said.

I will ignore the first line, now, you are under the impression that the letter to the Romans is a letter to the Gentiles.

Please explain the following verse to me in 15 lines or less.

Romans 2:17-18 (NKJV)

"17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,"

 

[Giggles4God]

I'm just going to answer what was asked.

I guess I go to what Jesus said when He gave us the two commandments. Love the Lord Your God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength; and Love your neighbor as yourself.

If we do these things, we will be able to keep the ten commandments. Since we are still on this Earth, we will sin no matter how hard we try not to do so.

It is what I strive for, to be more like Jesus and sin not.

Thank God for His grace that abounds!

 

[papajim]

No worries David777 I have not taken offence by our conversation and I hope that I have not offended you. I have also delt with this subject and it has been my primary study for a while. I didn't get at first, but through the Lords patients and persistants with much study I have come to learn the wonderful truth.

You are correct that the letter is to the Christian Jews primarly, and I stand corrected.

 

[papajim]

To Jiggyfly and David777

Our battles are not with each other, it is a far bigger battle than that as you already know.

I understand what you both have been saying I really do, and for the most part I whole heartedly agree. When you send me texts I can see them and understanding what they are saying, but by your responses about them I know that you are not seeing what I am seeing. I mean this with all love and sincerity.

You see I have that same piece to my puzzle that you have, but I have another piece to go with it which gives me a bigger picture. The more pieces we have the greater and more clear the picture becomes. I don't claim to have all the pieces but I do have another piece.

In your minds I am talking about bondage and the way I think that you are seeing it I would have to agree. But I have not been talking about bondage at all, but 100 percent freedom.

It is because of this freedom that we have in Christ that I have been so persistant. Now I know when I say we have freedom in Christ you will say that is what I have been saying and I believe this is where Satan is bringing confusion between us, and where the language barrier is at least in part.

There is a language barrier between us and Satan would have it so, because he dosen't want you to understand what I understand.

I know that this may sound pompas and arrogant, but I mean this with all humbleness of heart. So please bear with me and continue to have patients.

I am not good with words and have a difficult time expressing my ideas in this I have the greater frustration.

 

[jiggyfly]

To Jiggyfly and David777

Our battles are not with each other, it is a far bigger battle than that as you already know.

I understand what you both have been saying I really do, and for the most part I whole heartedly agree. When you send me texts I can see them and understanding what they are saying, but by your responses about them I know that you are not seeing what I am seeing. I mean this with all love and sincerity.

You see I have that same piece to my puzzle that you have, but I have another piece to go with it which gives me a bigger picture. The more pieces we have the greater and more clear the picture becomes. I don't claim to have all the pieces but I do have another piece.

In your minds I am talking about bondage and the way I think that you are seeing it I would have to agree. But I have not been talking about bondage at all, but 100 percent freedom.

It is because of this freedom that we have in Christ that I have been so persistant. Now I know when I say we have freedom in Christ you will say that is what I have been saying and I believe this is where Satan is bringing confusion between us, and where the language barrier is at least in part.

There is a language barrier between us and Satan would have it so, because he dosen't want you to understand what I understand.

I know that this may sound pompas and arrogant, but I mean this with all humbleness of heart. So please bear with me and continue to have patients.

I am not good with words and have a difficult time expressing my ideas in this I have the greater frustration.

Do you deny that Paul said God has put away the whole old covenant including all the law? If Christ fulfilled and satisfied the law and yet the law needs to be fulfilled again then the law is a greedy, dishonest thief.

 

[papajim]

No I am agreeing with Paul and you that Christ is the fullfillment of the law. Jesus will always be the fullfillment of the law, that same Jesus that is in you and me is still the fullfillment of the law. It will always be about Jesus and who He is.

John the Babtist said it well when he said that He (Christ) must increase and I must decrease.

 

[Christ4Ever]

10C Helpful? Yes

the volume of responses did come as a surprise, and i wonder why the 10 commandments aren't part of the educational system. can any one point a single bad thing about them???

Surprised! Sorry, but I'm not. You also will probably not get a response to your question either. Did a "poll" on this, and some of the respondents to this posted there as well. Well, intentioned questions aren't always answered. Hey, that's okay, since we still continue to grow!

I guess I go to what Jesus said when He gave us the two commandments. Love the Lord Your God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength; and Love your neighbor as yourself.

If we do these things, we will be able to keep the ten commandments. Since we are still on this Earth, we will sin no matter how hard we try not to do so.

It is what I strive for, to be more like Jesus and sin not.

Thank God for His grace that abounds!

Now this pretty much says how and what I've been trying to say. Thanks G4G. However, some equate the Ten Commandments from the perspective of “salvation” alone and not as you’ve stated. By Grace alone in regards to salvation, and Love in practice which is easily evidenced when compared to the law.
YBIC

 

[David777]

Dear Papajim.

The point that we are trying to make is that the law which includes the Ten Commandments is the written code. This written code condemned the nation of Israel as you observed in the O.T.

What many do not understand when they read the N.T is that the authors are Jewish. Hence, the letters are riddled with references to the law. Gentiles or the uncircumsised were never under the Mosaic law. We Gentiles came to Jesus "apart" from the law, we have no use for the law.

More importantly the written code is for the ungodly, murderers, thieves, etc. It is for the flesh, it condemns the flesh. You will notice in Paul's letter to the Galatians that this is the very point that Paul deals with. These Galatians were set free from death through the Spirit in Christ, but now they have fallen under the law. Paul fears they may be lost, they were bewitched!

These Galatians were combining the law and Christ, this was a fatal error. Like i said before they do not mix.

 

[papajim]

You and I are getting a little closer in our thinking now, but we are not quite there yet. In your last paragraph you have repeated what I have said earlier but not word for word. "That the law is for the ungodly" If I covet it is ungodly wouldn't you say?

Let us go back into the old testatment for a moment for what you are saying, if I am understanding you correctly is that sin didn't exist until the written code and it was only written for the Jews.

400 years before the written code, in the time of Joseph, Potifer's wife wanted to lay with Joseph. Joseph said how can I do this wicked thing against God. Joseph new that it was adultry and wanted no part of it. The law was written in his heart. Let's go back even more when Cain killed his brother he knew that he had done evil, but there was no written law to say thou shalt not kill. Let's go back even more to the fall of Eve when she was decieved by the serpant. Didn't eve put her own self interest be for God's command, which said in the written law thou shalt have no other gods before me. Didn't that same law apply to satan when he wanted to be like the most high?

So the law applies to those who disobey it.

Now I agree that disobedience is of the flesh and our DNA is of the flesh, therefore it cannot obey it is not possible for me to obey the law. I have tried and failed and I know that you have too.

In reality disobedience is not the the root of the problem it is the problem manifesting itself through disobedience. If it is not the root of the problem then me trying to keep the law isn't the solution.

I am made of sinful flesh as I said before all I can do in the flesh is sin, so no matter how hard I try I cannot obey the law. A lepeord cannot change his spots "Through the law comes the knowledge of sin" it dosen't have the power to help me overcome and I don't have the power to overcome. So now I have a problem, I am a sinner, and the wages of sin is death. I then have to die or should I say my sinful nature needs to die. I have no power to crucify my sinful nature which is the flesh, now I need a savior someone to take my sinful nature and my past sins and make it die. If someone dosen't take my sinful nature and my sins I will die.

Jesus came in the likeness of my sinful flesh yet without sin. Lived a life of obedience to the law perfectly. Took my sinful nature upon Himself and crucified it. Now I have a way out, Jesus traded me places. He took my disobedience and gave me His obedience. Now I can come to Jesus with out the law because the law condemns sin in which Jesus paid the penalty.

Now when I live it is no longer I who lives but Christ lives in me. This same Jesus lived in perfect obedience to the law is now living His obedience in me because that is who He is. I am dead and Christ is alive. If Christ is alive in me then I am free from sin and the condemnation of the law, because it is no longer me but Christ in me.

If Christ is in me I cannot sin I am now born of God. "Whoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remainth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God." 1John3:9

When I am born of God there is a literal change that takes place in me, because it is now Christ that lives. I become Christlike a partaker of the divine nature and my sinful nature is dead in Christ.

Now I have come to the root of the problem, and also found the solution. Read John chapter 17 it is Jesus's prayer, notice in verse 21 "That they all may be one: as thou Father, art in me, and I in them that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou has sent me." wow what a powerful prayer!

In my very first post I said that sin was seperation from God, so the solution is to be united with God. As Christ and God are one, we are to be one in them. Then we can truly be called the sons of God.

When we look at the gospel in this way that it is no longer us but Christ in us, it all begins to make sense. When we come to the fullness of the faith we will be just like Christ. My favorite verses are 1John2,3

This applies to both Jew and Gentiles

 

[David777]

Very good Papajim.

Yes what you have said is correct. Old things have passed away and we live not in the flesh but in the newness of the Spirit.

Your problem with the alloy of Law and Grace is a very old problem.

Jesus was sent to the Jews, his ministry was amongst those under the Law. Jesus healed on the Sabbath this was His undoing. But He also died for the Gentiles. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles hence mention of the Law is almost non existant in his letters.

I am not suprised that people have Christ and the Ten Commandments, it takes some maturity to see the error in this approach. That's why the letter to the Galatians is in the New Testament, to correct this error.

 

[papajim]

Thank you David,

Can you see the gospel in the Sabbath? It is there.

 

[David777]

More.

Yes Papajim we have entered the sabbath rest in Jesus Christ. In Jesus everything is contained, all the fullness. We Gentiles or Uncircumsised have no sabbath but in Jesus we have that sabbath rest. Rest from trying to appear good enough through our own efforts at righteousness. Now this is truly rest.