The Trinity

[Christ4Ever]

With Him as all things are to be reconciled unto Him through Christ Col 1:20 Absolutely scriptural. Unless, like B-A-C, you don't believe that that verse means
exactly what it says.
Col 1:19-21 For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to
reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated
IN YOUR MIND by wicked works, yet now hath HE RECONCILED......

Every person is born condemned in their own mind whether they understand that or not is irrelevant. The reconciliation is a choice of God and it
shows His righteousness in that it was necessary for man to be rebellious in order to experience good and evil and to participate in the same.
This is why the condemnation was pronounced from the very first act of disobedience. God knowing we must have the experience in order to
be like Him allowed all of it to happen on purpose. He already had the fix and that was the crucifixion of the one who would be His Son and
take on all sin that was committed by all. Thus He condemned all and in His righteousness He provided the resolution to our condemnation.
He gifts the faith necessary to believe to those He has chosen for this time period as in all time periods. No prophet of God ever chose to be one.
But they all were because God made them one.
Now since the condemnation was necessary and is still in full effect today God is slowly but surely selecting a governing body (Christ) to take
the first dominion Mic 4:8 This does not mean He is losing anyone, He has His plan and will fulfill that plan at His own leisure. We who are part of
the elect and will receive the first dominion have an amazing opportunity to remain faithful and become better than the least in the kingdom at
this time. This is where exhortation of all comes into play for I don't believe most understand what the calling and election is about.
They all just want to go to heaven. Can't say I blame them but it is much more than that.
When the judgement comes, those not chosen or those who fell away, where unto they were appointed, will also, through refining fire and
I believe a more intense maturation processing in good and evil, come into the same life we received by the crucifixion of the Son of God by the same
GRACE extended to us in this first dispensation.
As I mentioned to B-A-C there is no way that all the human race can be accounted for in this dispensation of time. Too many have died prior to
Jesus and too many were not chosen, but the Bible clearly states that all things are to be reconciled unto God through Jesus Christ and that will
require another dispensation of time and another death period. Second death.
And as all things are of God, He is only reconciling what is His. Everything.
Eph 1:9-10
9-Having made known unto us the mystery of HIS WILL, according to HIS GOOD PLEASURE which HE HATH PURPOSED IN HIMSELF:
10-That in the dispensation of the fullness of the TIMES He might gather together IN ONE (Spirit) ALL THINGS IN CHRIST(the anointing), both which
are in heaven and which are on earth, even in Him.
And this agrees with Col 1:20
And John 17:21 and John 17:23 That they ALL would be one as He and the Father were one in Spirit.
1 Co 6:17 For he who is joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT with Him.

I know its a lot to understand but you can't say a meal worthy of teeth wasn't served.

Dear Samson2020,

In truth before I even start, I have to thank you. Delving into this was nothing I have intended doing. Being in Christ Jesus and praying for the hope of others that they too may know that belief through the faith given one to believe was really my focus. That each person has/had the choice was evident to me through a God that desired all to be saved but would not have no one who did not want Him.

Well, your opening is comparing me to others. I guess which is justified since I did compare you to being like other Universalist.

Note: I added the following to show I did consider them in their proper meaning (reconcile & all)

Reconcile Lexicon :: Strong's G604 - apokatallassō

I - to reconcile completely
II - to reconcile back again
III - bring back a former state of harmony

All things Lexicon :: Strong’s G3956 – pas

I - Individually
A - Each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
II - Collectively
A - Some of all types

Note 2: From what you have done, in highlighting and bolding has a tendency to downplay the other words included. Probably not your intent, but it does make the eyes look to them to the exclusion of the others. That is why I only attempt to use underline and/or italics alone. It does not detract as much to the rest of what is being said.

However, as much as Col1:19-21 and what it means requires us to delve into the meaning of “reconciliation” and “all”, but also how they are used contextually with the rest of Scripture. I would add “punishment” to this as well because for many they go hand in hand. However, I see that as another subject and I believe should not be confused with Salvation, its purpose and meaning. Which when we talk about reconciliation is what we are talking about. If a person is to be reconciled than a foundation must exist which a person travels from to, and because of the use of “all” it also must be seen collectively given/accomplished unless there is a condition tied to it that is necessary for that reconciliation to occur.

I thought about reading others to see how they came to believe in the position they hold but realized that I had the best Helper one could have in the Holy Spirit! I mean lacking the education of many, I now see how the Pharisee’s/Sadducees were amazed at the Apostles and how they could appear to be more than they were!

I truly enjoyed (not really) the conundrum of looking at what just the implication of those two words did to the majority of Scripture, as found in the New Testament. It brought many questions to mind that I believed needed to be answered, at least initially that is how I started out! However, I soon came to realize with some help (Holy Spirit) that the questions themselves only moved me away from what I was seeking to areas that were almost endless in and of themselves! Down the rabbit hole so to speak! Though it does leave questions that you will need to address if you are to be consistent in your own analysis of what you believe to be true. Maybe, you have already, in truth I do not know you well enough to say yea or nay to this. We shall see.

Col 1:19-21 For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to
reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated
IN YOUR MIND by wicked works, yet now hath HE RECONCILED......

I’ve added a couple other verses that follow for context.

[Col 1:19-23 KJV] 19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The question is who Paul was writing to (you), and if the “reconciliation” being talked about was conditional and to what purpose. This is the reason I added the above verses 22-23 which provide the necessary context. Always keeping in mind that numbering which I was going to remove but didn’t was not in existence when the original writings were done.

Now we know the following concerning reconciliation, at least to its meaning in the Greek and as it pertains to these verses and not in others. I hope you do not mind that I use the KJV/Strongs to state the meaning of words here and moving forward. I am not a master of languages, and so am dependent upon externals and not my own knowledge base for accuracy. For this very reason I will only deal with the surface meaning, and not break it down to lose sight of why we are doing this!

Repeating the verses I have added for your consideration:

[Col 1:22-23 KJV] 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Do you notice what adding verses 22& 23 does contextually to both “all & reconciled” found in the other verses? It sets purpose and conditions to them. Without which I would read its significance just as you have. Adding the verses shows that it is all encompassing in only if conditions apply. This is why context is important.

The death of Christ on the Cross has allowed the one being talked to “you” to be presented “holy and unblameable and unreproveable” (purpose). What then follows is a condition set for the preceding of “all & reconciliation” to be true, and that is “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”.

No one has an excuse because it has been preached to every creature under heaven! Though it makes you wonder the “how” when it says, “which was preached to every creature which is under heaven”. Some things are difficult to digest in one sitting, and the reason smaller portions are easier for me. Being the simple man that I am. Thankfully the Holy Spirit works with my inadequacies. Alleluia! \o/ Even though He did wake me up in the middle of the night to write this out! lol

Looking at the rest of what you wrote will have to wait until I hear your response to the above.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[B-A-C]

The word reconcile doesn't always mean "get back together".
It means even up the score, make the balance even. Settle up the accounts.

The accounts "WILL" be paid one way or another. If you don't have the money you owe you'll go to jail or prison. That won't necessarily make the person you owe any happier, because they want their money.
But as far as the judicial system is concerned, they do their time and the debt is paid. In some cases, doing a complete lifetime sentence is required. These people are never free to re-enter society.
And in rare-cases, people are give multiple lifetime sentences. Depending on the source a "lifetime" sentence can be as small as 15 years in some cases. The legal system knows there are loopholes,
so in some cases people are given a 3 lifetime sentence or a 5 lifetime. Lucy Letby was given a 15 lifetime sentence. 15 x 15 years = 225 years without the possibility of parole. She killed 7 babies.
What is the sentence for someone like Mao Zedong, or Joseph Stalin, or Adolph Hitler?

The wages of sin is death. You can accept Jesus, and He will pay the debt for you. Or... you can reject Him and you can pay the debt yourself.
But make no mistake... the debt "WILL" be reconciled, one way or another.

The Bible says everyone lives forever. Everyone. No one just "dies" and that's the end. The Bible doesn't support annihilation anywhere. For people who don't accept Jesus, they face a second death.
( the Lake of Fire ). The Bible says people will be there forever and ever. Forever is a long time. A popular old hymn says "

"When we've been there ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun, we've no less days to sing God's praise, than when we'd first begun."

It's speaking of heaven, but the same is true for those who go to the lake of Fire. They never die in the sense that they cease to exist. But they can never pay their own debt, so....
If anyone's name is not in the Book of Life they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Samson2020]

Being in Christ Jesus and praying for the hope of others that they too may know that belief through the faith given one to believe was really my focus. That each person has/had the choice was evident to me through a God that desired all to be saved but would not have no one who did not want Him.

It is good that you are looking into this instead of summarily dismissing it for it is the truth.

Firstly your statement above. "That they too may know that belief through the FAITH GIVEN ONE TO BELIEVE" this is correct thinking, it is given, a gift.
However each person had/has a choice is not.
We both know that God makes the choice of us not the other way around and that the GIFTS and CALLING of God are without repentance, so whatever
He gave you is yours period. The Faith to believe and the Holy Ghost to guide you into all truth, they are yours, will we frustrate the HG? Probably, but
we were made lower than the angels so not so smart.

Which when we talk about reconciliation is what we are talking about. If a person is to be reconciled than a foundation must exist which a person travels from to, and because of the use of “all” it also must be seen collectively given/accomplished unless there is a condition tied to it that is necessary for that reconciliation to occur.

Good point and is answered in
Mic 4:10 Be in pain and labor to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: For now shalt thou
go forth of the city (God), and dwell in the field (earth), and go even unto Babylon (fallen carnal state of man), THERE shall thou be delivered,
THERE shalt thou be redeemed from the hand of thine enemies.
Who made this choice of us and for us? God

Where did everyone come from-God, where did everyone go-Earth, what state did God put everyone in -Carnally minded. Where are the same to be delivered
and redeemed -right where they are here on earth. Is this where it happened for you? It was for me.

Traveled from God and reconciled back to Him through His redeeming of us/them done by the blood of Jesus. As I mentioned in the other post all of our experience
in good and evil is a prerequisite in becoming like God. Therefore the whole of mankinds condition was orchestrated by our Father.
Condemnation through the man Adam, and the reconciliation through the man Jesus Christ. As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
To put a little twist to it God said let us make man in our image. Right? But is the current state of man an actual reflection of God? I hope you said no.
it is Gods intention to transform us into the express image of Jesus as sons. Correct? And Jesus is the express image of God, thus when that will have been
accomplished the reality of mankind being created in the IMAGE of the invisible God will have been fulfilled. For we will be like Jesus who is just like His Father thus all
will bear a striking resemblance to one another.

[Col 1:19-23 KJV] 19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The question is who Paul was writing to (you), and if the “reconciliation” being talked about was conditional and to what purpose. This is the reason I added the above verses 22-23 which provide the necessary context. Always keeping in mind that numbering which I was going to remove but didn’t was not in existence when the original writings were done.

The elect in Colossae. No need to write to those not elect yet as it would just be foolishness to them, as it once was to all of us prior to our own election.
Ok the reconciliation is one thought the other is whether you are actually Holy and unreproveable in His sight. There is a period after verse 20 and it ends that
thought and I for one believe they got it correct. The grounded faith is what causes you to be Holy and unblameable and unreprovable but not reconciled.
Again the gifts(faith and HG) and calling of God are without repentance on His part. Rom 11:29

Do you notice what adding verses 22& 23 does contextually to both “all & reconciled” found in the other verses? It sets purpose and conditions to them. Without which I would read its significance just as you have. Adding the verses shows that it is all encompassing in only if conditions apply. This is why context is important

Same answer as above for being reconciled is one thing but being Holy, unblameable, and unreprovable is another. And again if you have been GIVEN the FAITH
as you say in the opening, which I agree with, then He will not repent or draw the gift back under any circumstance. These verses have 2 thoughts not just
one. Reconciliation unconditional as God won't repent, the other, Holy etc is conditional upon grounded faith.

The death of Christ on the Cross has allowed the one being talked to “you” to be presented “holy and unblameable and unreproveable” (purpose

2 Thoughts not just one, the death of the Son is what causes the reconciliation. Rom 5:18 The other is your grounded faith to be presented holy, unblameable and
unreproveable.

Paul wrote the same message to the Romans 5:18 the Colossians 1:20 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 1 Timothy 4:9-11 Ephesians 1:1-6
Why would He make such claims to them all if this were not so?

It is good to ask questions of God for if a man lack knowledge let him ask of God. How He chooses to answer? Well His prerogative.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

To me the trinity is like a candle. The candle has three parts: the wax, the fire, the wick.

Nope that's "Modalism". GOD ducking into a phone booth and changing clothes to be something else as required.

The TRINITY is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all of which are ONE GOD all the time.

 

[Samson2020]

The TRINITY is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all of which are ONE GOD all the time.

If that is the case then help enlighten us as to Pauls meaning of this statement:

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ................
2 C0 11:31 The GOD AND FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ...........

And our second witness Peter
1 Pe 1:3 Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ............

Are they wrong? is the HG wrong? He had them write those statements.

 

[Samson2020]

It is the Father (the God and father of Jesus) that draws, leads, drags one to Jesus who in turn reveals the Father(Jesus' God) to you.
In the Trinitarian theory it is Jesus who draws ,leads, drags you to Himself as the Son, then the Son reveals that He really is the Father all along.
But Jesus also stated that life eternal was to know BOTH the only TRUE GOD(his Father)and Jesus Christ............... John 17:3
Anybody see the problem with this?

 

[Bill]

Nope that's "Modalism". GOD ducking into a phone booth and changing clothes to be something else as required.

The TRINITY is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all of which are ONE GOD all the time.

That's what I said , you paid too much attention to the individual parts of the candle and the candle as a whole is the Trinity

 

[Charlie24]

If we go back to Isaiah 9:6 we find who Christ really is,

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

All of these titles belong to Jesus Christ, including "The everlasting Father."

Now if anyone is foolish enough to believe they can understand this and then explain it, then by all means show us how foolish you really are!

 

[Bill]

If we go back to Isaiah 9:6 we find who Christ really is,

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

All of these titles belong to Jesus Christ, including "The everlasting Father."

Now if anyone is foolish enough to believe they can understand this and then explain it, then by all means show us how foolish you really are!

There are three parts to the candle. The wick, the wax, and the fire. Each part is equally important, and each part can be looked upon as the trinity because the candle is one

 

[Charlie24]

There are three parts to the candle. The wick, the wax, and the fire. Each part is equally important, and each part can be looked upon as the trinity because the candle is one

Their is also the ice symbols that represent the Godhead, but none of it explains the relationship of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

In other words, it can't be explained with our mortal minds, and when try to do so we create false doctrine.

 

[Samson2020]

If we go back to Isaiah 9:6 we find who Christ really is,

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

All of these titles belong to Jesus Christ, including "The everlasting Father."

Now if anyone is foolish enough to believe they can understand this and then explain it, then by all means show us how foolish you really are!

Ok here we go,
First of all a child is to be born, a human, God is/was never a man. Num 23:19
Second the government shall be upon His shoulder- It is Jesus who is the king and must reign including in the millennial kingdom so the government of the kingdom
is his, until all enemies are put under him. But the one who puts all things under Him is not subject to Jesus, but Jesus is subject to Him(GOD). Thus not equal. 1 Co 15:27
Third His name SHALL BE CALLED :
It wasn't IS, it was SHALL BE. Why?
For He had not been matured as the first begotten son of God yet. It was only after He suffered through the things God put Him through that He was perfected
and became a life giving Spirit- A God, not the One and ONLY TRUE GOD HIS FATHER. Heb 1:5 John 17:3
1 Co 15:45 And so it is written the first man Adam became a living being, the last Adam(Jesus Christ) BECAME a LIFE giving spirit.
God doesn't need to become a life giving Spirit for He always was and the one who gave that life to His only begotten Son to give to us.

The Father gave this life to the Son to give to whomsoever........John 5:26
This means that God, the God and Father of Jesus, is the true Father of everybody including Jesus. Psa 82:6
Jesus gives us life when we are drawn to him by the father, this then being the reason He is consider/called the mighty father, and why we are considered
as adopted into the family, as we are the seed of JC. Gal 4:6 The life goes through Jesus but came from the Father originally.
It is impossible to deny that JC is the everlasting Father from the moment he became the One whom through life would be given to us, thus SHALL BE CALLED.
This then would align with Rev 3:14 where He states that He is the "faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD. Why?
Because He witnessed His Father to the world and foretold of what was coming, sonship, and He Himself was the first ,and only so far, to complete
that path. As the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD it should be obvious what He became- a God in the sense He now gives life to whomsoever.
And as Jesus BECAME a life giving spirit He could not have been co-eternal either.

The problem arises when you do not consider that all of us including Jesus came out from the Father, John 16:27 as spirits in physical Adamic bodies. MAN
He has completed what God had for Him to do. It is finished. We are the next step in the process.
When we consider where ALL of us came from, that being God, we also are co eternal in that we were/are a part of God but incapable of self sustaining life.
Psa 82:6
This is the reason He chose us from within Himself and destined us to become sons, so that we would have self sustaining eternal life.
He chose to do this through one man that being JC. I have come so that they might have life and have it more abundantly. John 10:10
Wouldn't you say that self sustainable life eternal is more abundant than simply being a non self sustainable part?

 

[Charlie24]

Ok here we go,
First of all a child is to be born, a human, God is/was never a man. Num 23:19
Second the government shall be upon His shoulder- It is Jesus who is the king and must reign including in the millennial kingdom so the government of the kingdom
is his, until all enemies are put under him. But the one who puts all things under Him is not subject to Jesus, but Jesus is subject to Him(GOD). Thus not equal. 1 Co 15:27
Third His name SHALL BE CALLED :
It wasn't IS, it was SHALL BE. Why?
For He had not been matured as the first begotten son of God yet. It was only after He suffered through the things God put Him through that He was perfected
and became a life giving Spirit- A God, not the One and ONLY TRUE GOD HIS FATHER. Heb 1:5 John 17:3
1 Co 15:45 And so it is written the first man Adam became a living being, the last Adam(Jesus Christ) BECAME a LIFE giving spirit.
God doesn't need to become a life giving Spirit for He always was and the one who gave that life to His only begotten Son to give to us.

The Father gave this life to the Son to give to whomsoever........John 5:26
This means that God, the God and Father of Jesus, is the true Father of everybody including Jesus. Psa 82:6
Jesus gives us life when we are drawn to him by the father, this then being the reason He is consider/called the mighty father, and why we are considered
as adopted into the family, as we are the seed of JC. Gal 4:6 The life goes through Jesus but came from the Father originally.
It is impossible to deny that JC is the everlasting Father from the moment he became the One whom through life would be given to us, thus SHALL BE CALLED.
This then would align with Rev 3:14 where He states that He is the "faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD. Why?
Because He witnessed His Father to the world and foretold of what was coming, sonship, and He Himself was the first ,and only so far, to complete
that path. As the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD it should be obvious what He became- a God in the sense He now gives life to whomsoever.
And as Jesus BECAME a life giving spirit He could not have been co-eternal either.

The problem arises when you do not consider that all of us including Jesus came out from the Father, John 16:27 as spirits in physical Adamic bodies. MAN
He has completed what God had for Him to do. It is finished. We are the next step in the process.
When we consider where ALL of us came from, that being God, we also are co eternal in that we were/are a part of God but incapable of self sustaining life.
Psa 82:6
This is the reason He chose us from within Himself and destined us to become sons, so that we would have self sustaining eternal life.
He chose to do this through one man that being JC. I have come so that they might have life and have it more abundantly. John 10:10
Wouldn't you say that self sustainable life eternal is more abundant than simply being a non self sustainable part?

Oh boy! This is some the most messed up theology I have ever seen.

No wonder you are in argument with everyone.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It is the Father (the God and father of Jesus) that draws, leads, drags one to Jesus who in turn reveals the Father(Jesus' God) to you.
In the Trinitarian theory it is Jesus who draws ,leads, drags you to Himself as the Son, then the Son reveals that He really is the Father all along.
But Jesus also stated that life eternal was to know BOTH the only TRUE GOD(his Father)and Jesus Christ............... John 17:3
Anybody see the problem with this?

Yup - it's totally meaningless. Other than that it's excellent "Theology".

 

[Samson2020]

Oh boy! This is some the most messed up theology I have ever seen.

No wonder you are in argument with everyone.

How is it that you reject the simple statements like Paul and Peters, that our Father is the GOD AND FATHER of Jesus Christ, noted above in post 105
But rather cling to twisted scripture to support a theory that is easily disproven by the simple scriptures concerning both our Father and our Lord?

Unless you fall into the camp of those spoken of in 2 Ti 3:7 "Ever learning, and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

 

[Charlie24]

How is it that you reject the simple statements like Paul and Peters, that our Father is the GOD AND FATHER of Jesus Christ, noted above in post 105
But rather cling to twisted scripture to support a theory that is easily disproven by the simple scriptures concerning both our Father and our Lord?

Unless you fall into the camp of those spoken of in 2 Ti 3:7 "Ever learning, and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I'm sorry Sam, but it's you who's resisting by not having a proper understanding of the Scripture. In fact, I haven't seen such a vast misunderstanding of Scripture as you display!

For example, let's take a look at your response in post # 111, just the first line. to cover the rest of your mistakes would carry me well past midnight.

You said that God is not a man and use for reference Numbers 23:19.

Sam, God was and is a man in Jesus Christ, unless you care to deny the deity of Christ. He is sitting beside God right now a man in indestructible flesh (a glorified body) the same body He ascended into heaven with. Mortal flesh cannot enter into heaven but immortal flesh, the glorified body can.

Numbers 23:19 is not saying that God is not a man, it's saying God is not as a man who lies. In other words, God is not a liar as man.

 

[Samson2020]

Sam, God was and is a man in Jesus Christ, unless you care to deny the deity of Christ. He is sitting beside God right now a man in indestructible flesh (a glorified body) the same body He ascended into heaven with. Mortal flesh cannot enter into heaven but immortal flesh, the glorified body can.

Jesus was the man whom God resided in while reconciling the world to Himself. 2 Co 5:19 God is a Spirit. Jesus of Nazareth was a man.
God cannot be tempted with evil but Jesus could be. Satan tempted Jesus, not God. Satan cannot temp His creator to worship him. And he didn't.

Numbers 23:19 is not saying that God is not a man, it's saying God is not as a man who lies. In other words, God is not a liar as man.

You just can't help adding to or taking away from scripture to support your position. Num 23:19 states "God is NOT A MAN, that He should lie..............
It does not say he is not LIKE A MAN.................

But twist away not my concern anymore I gave you what you asked for and you cannot understand it.

 

[Bill]

Their is also the ice symbols that represent the Godhead, but none of it explains the relationship of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

In other words, it can't be explained with our mortal minds, and when try to do so we create false doctrine.

The best explanation I ever heard of what the holy spirit is. Is that the love of the father to the son, and the love of the son to the father is what the holy spirit is

 

[Bill]

Dear Samson2020,

In truth before I even start, I have to thank you. Delving into this was nothing I have intended doing. Being in Christ Jesus and praying for the hope of others that they too may know that belief through the faith given one to believe was really my focus. That each person has/had the choice was evident to me through a God that desired all to be saved but would not have no one who did not want Him.

Well, your opening is comparing me to others. I guess which is justified since I did compare you to being like other Universalist.

Note: I added the following to show I did consider them in their proper meaning (reconcile & all)

Reconcile Lexicon :: Strong's G604 - apokatallassō

I - to reconcile completely
II - to reconcile back again
III - bring back a former state of harmony

All things Lexicon :: Strong’s G3956 – pas

I - Individually
A - Each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
II - Collectively
A - Some of all types

Note 2: From what you have done, in highlighting and bolding has a tendency to downplay the other words included. Probably not your intent, but it does make the eyes look to them to the exclusion of the others. That is why I only attempt to use underline and/or italics alone. It does not detract as much to the rest of what is being said.

However, as much as Col1:19-21 and what it means requires us to delve into the meaning of “reconciliation” and “all”, but also how they are used contextually with the rest of Scripture. I would add “punishment” to this as well because for many they go hand in hand. However, I see that as another subject and I believe should not be confused with Salvation, its purpose and meaning. Which when we talk about reconciliation is what we are talking about. If a person is to be reconciled than a foundation must exist which a person travels from to, and because of the use of “all” it also must be seen collectively given/accomplished unless there is a condition tied to it that is necessary for that reconciliation to occur.

I thought about reading others to see how they came to believe in the position they hold but realized that I had the best Helper one could have in the Holy Spirit! I mean lacking the education of many, I now see how the Pharisee’s/Sadducees were amazed at the Apostles and how they could appear to be more than they were!

I truly enjoyed (not really) the conundrum of looking at what just the implication of those two words did to the majority of Scripture, as found in the New Testament. It brought many questions to mind that I believed needed to be answered, at least initially that is how I started out! However, I soon came to realize with some help (Holy Spirit) that the questions themselves only moved me away from what I was seeking to areas that were almost endless in and of themselves! Down the rabbit hole so to speak! Though it does leave questions that you will need to address if you are to be consistent in your own analysis of what you believe to be true. Maybe, you have already, in truth I do not know you well enough to say yea or nay to this. We shall see.



I’ve added a couple other verses that follow for context.

[Col 1:19-23 KJV] 19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The question is who Paul was writing to (you), and if the “reconciliation” being talked about was conditional and to what purpose. This is the reason I added the above verses 22-23 which provide the necessary context. Always keeping in mind that numbering which I was going to remove but didn’t was not in existence when the original writings were done.

Now we know the following concerning reconciliation, at least to its meaning in the Greek and as it pertains to these verses and not in others. I hope you do not mind that I use the KJV/Strongs to state the meaning of words here and moving forward. I am not a master of languages, and so am dependent upon externals and not my own knowledge base for accuracy. For this very reason I will only deal with the surface meaning, and not break it down to lose sight of why we are doing this!

Repeating the verses I have added for your consideration:

[Col 1:22-23 KJV] 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Do you notice what adding verses 22& 23 does contextually to both “all & reconciled” found in the other verses? It sets purpose and conditions to them. Without which I would read its significance just as you have. Adding the verses shows that it is all encompassing in only if conditions apply. This is why context is important.

The death of Christ on the Cross has allowed the one being talked to “you” to be presented “holy and unblameable and unreproveable” (purpose). What then follows is a condition set for the preceding of “all & reconciliation” to be true, and that is “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”.

No one has an excuse because it has been preached to every creature under heaven! Though it makes you wonder the “how” when it says, “which was preached to every creature which is under heaven”. Some things are difficult to digest in one sitting, and the reason smaller portions are easier for me. Being the simple man that I am. Thankfully the Holy Spirit works with my inadequacies. Alleluia! \o/ Even though He did wake me up in the middle of the night to write this out! lol

Looking at the rest of what you wrote will have to wait until I hear your response to the above.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

This is a really great post. I will reread it later tonight. I just wanted to tell you, very impressed

 

[Bill]

Jesus was the man whom God resided in while reconciling the world to Himself. 2 Co 5:19 God is a Spirit. Jesus of Nazareth was a man.
God cannot be tempted with evil but Jesus could be. Satan tempted Jesus, not God. Satan cannot temp His creator to worship him. And he didn't.

You just can't help adding to or taking away from scripture to support your position. Num 23:19 states "God is NOT A MAN, that He should lie..............
It does not say he is not LIKE A MAN.................

But twist away not my concern anymore I gave you what you asked for and you cannot understand it.

It's a little bit comical, that what you're accusing Charlie of is also the same thing you're doing. Taking away and adding to scripture to fit your own view.

You do know that Satan himself can defend himself using scripture. It has to do with using single lines, versus the whole narrative.

 

[Charlie24]

The best explanation I ever heard of what the holy spirit is. Is that the love of the father to the son, and the love of the son to the father is what the holy spirit is

I would agree with that! Love definitely is the core of all He does.

I see the Holy Spirit as our means of relationship with Christ, and therefore the Father also. He does much more than this, but this is all I need to know now.