The war within

[At Peace]

@At Peace I hope you have a wonderful weekend buddy I will have to bow out of this conversation, you and eye will not come to complete agreement on some things and thats ok.

...but the seed HAS been planted, and I pray that God will nourish and tend it with great care.

 

[At Peace]

Greetings,



If God permits may i add some to this?

The Temple was a sacred place, with courts, areas and porches, etc and as you entered it there were limits put on each person as to how far 'in' they could go.
We need to stop and consider this more 'correctly' in order to better grasp some of these references made as we travel the road.

For example, at a certain place, one could not proceed with death being the punishment if they did, these being such as Gentiles, those who had had contact with dead bodies, various sick people, those who had had contact with menstruous women, those who had that day been through one of the ritual cleansings from the various needed/prescribed cleansings, women, etc etc

The keeping of the 'rules and regulations' was a very serious task and the solemnity with which the holiness of the Temple was to be approached and entered was detailed as well as thourough in its carrying out of all the requirements so that no profanity would defile the Temple. Inviolable is a word that describes it well - we get 'violate' from the same word. So to get the picture, there were many ways the Temple could be violated and the keeping it holy was a must.

What we can, but must not forget is this:
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
we see this again in Exodus 34:14 ; Deuteronomy 6:15

The sort of jealousy we need to understand as very much a part of the not defiling the Temple with any unclean thing, be it an image or a person, the uncleaness was met with the strongest of vehement indignation and wrath. If we can better understand this we also will see a lot more clearly the things that were behind many of the Scriptures we read, in the New Testament.

For us now we have the same intensity to face and to expect from the same GOD and LORD of the Old Testament times. When we read and/or quote verses about the Temple we MUST keep these things in mind so that in our interpretations we do not suggest profanity against that which He HAS made Holy.

We have two verses being touched on here that must be considered...

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 1Corinthians 3:16 and 1Corinthians 3:17

If you loked at the previous Scriptures regarding the jealousy of GOD you will see, in these two verses, a significant deliberation put forth by the Apostle. He knew what he was talking about, the Apostle Paul probably better than any of the Apostles, having been, previous to conversion, a level one Pharisee and a zealous one at that.
To refresh your mind,
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Exodus 34:14
(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. Dueteronomy 6:15
So, if any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy, takes on a whole new meaning.
Now, ye are the Temple of God, the Temple of God is holy, which you are.... we must consider by what means was the Old Temple clean? Once a year the High priest, after he had offered up all sacrifice for himself (to be cleaned and acceptable) entered in to the Holy of Holies, the innermost part of the Temple. He HAD to be extra clean, so to speak. Throughout the year, daily the strictest of rules/law/requirements had to be adhered to.

How then is the New Temple made clean? Is it by anything we can do?

Who HAS made His Temple clean, Holy, acceptable?

Guarantee to you is that it is none of us either prior nor after conversion at any point in time either now or in eternity that any of us or all of us altogether can make any part of the Temple He has Cleansed any cleaner.

Now, stop here. Ye are the Temple which is Holy, made holy By Christ Jesus alone. Think about it.
Not one has done the work of Christ. None can.
So, ye are the Temple. We are told that if any man defile the Temple... that is, defile you, usually plural, not individuals, which we tend to overlook... him will God destroy.
THIS is not about us, the members of the Temple doing the defiling but those who might come in from the outside uncleaned and so defile it (us, the Temple) with the pollution whereby he is defiled.
Our God IS a jealous God and ye are His. Do not be deceived.
we read in 2Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
....Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it; that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians 5:25-27
yes, let us be thankful that we do have a high priest....
For such an High Priest became us, Who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26
and has entered in....
and to recap, It is and was because the Spirit of God was/is indwelling the Temple that the Temple is Holy. Ye are the Temple of God, not made with hands, yes, ye are the Holy Temple kept Holy by the indwelling of the Spirit of God.
Be encouraged and take confidence, not in yourselves but in Him, Who has entered in....
Bless you ....><>
Know ye not that ye are the Temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the Temple of God is Holy, which Temple ye are. 1Corinthians 3:16-17

"Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." (Heb 9:21-23)
We, the temple of God on earth now in the NT, were "purged" by the blood of Christ.
It is nice to see the "patterns" in action sometimes.

 

[At Peace]

Remember, I asked you on another thread, and you could not give me a answer. I asked, "If Jesus was God in the flesh, and he was, how could Jesus ever be tempted when the scripture says", "God can NOT be tempted with evil, neither does he tempt any man?" (James 1:3) If you do not fully understand that man has two natures, a divine, and a human nature, you could not possibly answer this question.

1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The only thing that ALL men have in "common" with each other is that we all have a human nature. Not all men have the divine nature. (not born again) When Jesus was tempted it was not his divine nature because God can not be tempted with evil. It was in his human nature he was tempted. All born again children of God are also tempted in their human nature, which is why this scripture says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man:"
Now, we should be able to understand this scripture.

1John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Man has a divine nature within himself which is Christ in us. Christ can never be tempted to sin, for it can not sin, but mans human nature which is common to all men can.

While "God cannot be tempted with evil", temptations can still be brought to bear...but uselessly.
Jesus was tempted during His forty day fast, but the temptations were ludicrous to Jesus.
The Jews in the wilderness tempted God, but the temptations were a useless endevour. (Psalm 78, 106)
I think a better way to read..."God cannot be tempted with evil" might be..."God cannot be swayed, or compelled to do something, with evil".
Evil has no leverage on Him...thanks be to God.

James writes...".Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:13-15)
Here we see..."God cannot be tempted WITH evil" which agrees with my "better way to read..."

BTW, as it requires lust to complete the formula to commit sin, (verse 13 above), and Paul writes..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)...doesn't it stand to reason that we can't be tempted to commit sin by evilness either?
The devil may never quit tempting me with the wickedness I once did, but those evil deeds don't influence my walk in "newness of life".
Thanks be to God!
The verses don't say He can't be tempted, they say He cannot be tempted with evil.

 

[At Peace]

So who are God's children?

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." I John 3:9-10

If we sin at all are we God's children? Are we born again or perhaps we are still in the womb or still in the birth canal?
People are often quick to say that they are born again, when perhaps the process of birth is incomplete. The child is undergoing formation before it exposed to the Light for 9 months. The child does not breath air alone until after 9 months.

Even when the child is born it is still immature for a number of years. What is it we are looking for? What is it that God wants from us?

You inadvertently feed the defense of abortion with your inaccurate conclusion.
The "child" is always the reflection of it's parent at every stage of development.
It is never confused with a dog or pony or turtle.

 

[At Peace]

My spirit yes, my physical body no. Your body in which you are now living in is "corruptible", and if it isn't, your physical body would never die. The Apostle Paul never claimed to be sinless, in fact he said...

"YOUR" physical body"?
It is written..."What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Cor 6:19-20)

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

The last verse of Phil 3 will tell you what Paul had yet to "attain"..."Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."
Paul wanted his new "body".

What is sin?
Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)

• All unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17)
  ; that is, if it is not righteous, it is sin.
• Failing to do something you should have done is sin, because James 4:17
  states, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
• Whatsoever is not done in faith is sin (Roman 14:23)
  
• The thought of foolishness is sin (Proverbs 24:9)
  
• A proud heart is sin (Proverbs 21:4)
• Anyone who says they are sinless in this life has a "proud heart" and is committing sin!

Does everyone who has had ALL their sins washed away by the blood of Christ have a "proud heart"?
All sin.
The only thing that can cause that circumstance to change would be a false "turn from" sin.
It seems to me that it is those who raise themselves up against Christ that have the proud heart.
But God will forgive even that if the "heart" will turn permanently to God.

 

[amadeus2]

You inadvertently feed the defense of abortion with your inaccurate conclusion.
The "child" is always the reflection of it's parent at every stage of development.
It is never confused with a dog or pony or turtle.

You certainly read without understanding. My post consisted primarily of questions which hopefully will be read as questions a person needs to ask of himself and of God. The gist is found here:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

 

[Curtis]

While "God cannot be tempted with evil", temptations can still be brought to bear...but uselessly.
Jesus was tempted during His forty day fast, but the temptations were ludicrous to Jesus.
The Jews in the wilderness tempted God, but the temptations were a useless endevour. (Psalm 78, 106)
I think a better way to read..."God cannot be tempted with evil" might be..."God cannot be swayed, or compelled to do something, with evil".
Evil has no leverage on Him...thanks be to God.

James writes...".Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:13-15)
Here we see..."God cannot be tempted WITH evil" which agrees with my "better way to read..."

BTW, as it requires lust to complete the formula to commit sin, (verse 13 above), and Paul writes..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)...doesn't it stand to reason that we can't be tempted to commit sin by evilness either?
The devil may never quit tempting me with the wickedness I once did, but those evil deeds don't influence my walk in "newness of life".
Thanks be to God!
The verses don't say He can't be tempted, they say He cannot be tempted with evil.

So, you think Jesus was not really tempted at all? That is totally not true as you are just making up things as they fit your thinking. Jesus was tempted to just as the scriptures say.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Jesus was tempted exactly how a Christian is tempted!!!

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

God can not be tempted with evil. It was Jesus in his human nature that was tempted to sin just like any Christian would be. After 40 days of fasting Jesus was "hungry"

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

What was his first temptation?

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Jesus's "divine nature " does not need any food to sustain life, but the human nature which is a part of the physical body does need food to stay alive.

Jesus had a divine nature, and a human nature. All temptation is directed towards man's human nature, not our divine nature which is Christ is in us!!!

The word "lust" simply means "strong desire". Any one after fasting for 40 days would have a "strong desire" to eat food!!!

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, (strong desire) and enticed.

Jesus was hungry and was "enticed" by the devil to turn stones into bread.

 

[Dave M]

@Curtis

great write up thanks for sharing, let me ask you why would it be sin if Jesus had turned the rock into bread to eat, or maybe further why did he fast and why would it be sin if he broke the fast??

if this is off topic and takes aways from your teaching you could PM if that is better.

thanks

 

[Curtis]

@Curtis

great write up thanks for sharing, let me ask you why would it be sin if Jesus had turned the rock into bread to eat, or maybe further why did he fast and why would it be sin if he broke the fast??

if this is off topic and takes aways from your teaching you could PM if that is better.

thanks

The Apostle Paul tells us "whoever you obey you become their slave...." (Romans 6:16) Certainly Jesus would not want to become the devils slave for doing what he said. Jesus only did what his father showed, and told him to do, any thing else would have been a sin. This is why we are to walk in the Spirit, and that can only be done as we have our mind set on the things of the Spirit as he leads us. What ever is not of faith is sin, which is why we walk by faith not by sight.

 

[Dave M]

The Apostle Paul tells us "whoever you obey you become their slave...." (Romans 6:16) Certainly Jesus would not want to become the devils slave for doing what he said. Jesus only did what his father showed, and told him to do, any thing else would have been a sin. This is why we are to walk in the Spirit, and that can only be done as we have our mind set on the things of the Spirit as he leads us. What ever is not of faith is sin, which is why we walk by faith not by sight.

thanks Curtis

so in other words The father told Jesus to fast for 40 days if he had not obeyed it would of been a sin. that makes sense now funny how some things so obvious allude me and then bam just like that light shines through

 

[Curtis]

thanks Curtis

so in other words The father told Jesus to fast for 40 days if he had not obeyed it would of been a sin. that makes sense now funny how some things so obvious allude me and then bam just like that light shines through

Remember what Jesus said after the devil told him "make these stones bread...." Jesus said "man shall not live by bread along, but by every word that cometh out of the mouth of God." Referring he only did what his Father told him.
In my Christian life when the Lord tells, or shows me something in his Word, I think how could I ever have missed that, it is so simple to understand. I never try and figure anything out, I just believe what the Lord tells me.

 

[At Peace]

So, you think Jesus was not really tempted at all? That is totally not true as you are just making up things as they fit your thinking. Jesus was tempted to just as the scriptures say.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Jesus was tempted exactly how a Christian is tempted!!!

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

God can not be tempted with evil. It was Jesus in his human nature that was tempted to sin just like any Christian would be. After 40 days of fasting Jesus was "hungry"

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

What was his first temptation?

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Jesus's "divine nature " does not need any food to sustain life, but the human nature which is a part of the physical body does need food to stay alive.

Jesus had a divine nature, and a human nature. All temptation is directed towards man's human nature, not our divine nature which is Christ is in us!!!

The word "lust" simply means "strong desire". Any one after fasting for 40 days would have a "strong desire" to eat food!!!

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, (strong desire) and enticed.

Jesus was hungry and was "enticed" by the devil to turn stones into bread.

Yes, Jesus was tempted just as we are.
He just can't be tempted with evil.

 

[Curtis]

Yes, Jesus was tempted just as we are.
He just can't be tempted with evil.

So, Jesus was tempted to do good?

 

[At Peace]

You certainly read without understanding. My post consisted primarily of questions which hopefully will be read as questions a person needs to ask of himself and of God. The gist is found here:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

What does John the Baptist have to do with "not quite born", so not subject to "Whosoever is born of God cannot commit sin"?
By your implication that a child in the birth canal "doesn't really count yet" you give fodder to those who say life doesn't begin till the baby is outside of the womb.

 

[At Peace]

So, you think Jesus was not really tempted at all? That is totally not true as you are just making up things as they fit your thinking. Jesus was tempted to just as the scriptures say.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Jesus was tempted exactly how a Christian is tempted!!!

I agree completely.
But the devil cannot use "evil" to tempt God.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
God can not be tempted with evil. It was Jesus in his human nature that was tempted to sin just like any Christian would be. After 40 days of fasting Jesus was "hungry"
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

Where is the "evil" in feeding oneself?

What was his first temptation?
Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Jesus's "divine nature " does not need any food to sustain life, but the human nature which is a part of the physical body does need food to stay alive.
Jesus had a divine nature, and a human nature. All temptation is directed towards man's human nature, not our divine nature which is Christ is in us!!!
The word "lust" simply means "strong desire". Any one after fasting for 40 days would have a "strong desire" to eat food!!!
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, (strong desire) and enticed.
Jesus was hungry and was "enticed" by the devil to turn stones into bread.

Yes, Jesus was tempted to reveal that He was the Son of God.
Would He have been accused of sin if He had done so?
BTW, I could find no verses relevant to Jesus having a "divine nature".

The scrip' we are talking about says..."for God cannot be tempted with evil," (James 1:13)
I can only assume that the same holds true "for the Word cannot be tempted with evil", and thus "Jesus cannot be tempted with evil".
It isn't evil to eat or to take power over all that was already His.
Show the evil that was used to tempt Jesus.

 

[At Peace]

thanks Curtis

so in other words The father told Jesus to fast for 40 days if he had not obeyed it would of been a sin. that makes sense now funny how some things so obvious allude me and then bam just like that light shines through

Got a scripture for God telling Jesus to fast for forty days?
You are jumping to conclusions.

 

[Curtis]

I agree completely.
But the devil cannot use "evil" to tempt God.

True, Jesus's divine nature within him could not be tempted with evil, but Jesus's human nature could, and was tempted with evil.

BTW, I could find no verses relevant to Jesus having a "divine nature".

Would you call God the Father as being divine?

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 

[At Peace]

So, Jesus was tempted to do good?

"To do" has nothing at all to do with the discussion.
He can't be tempted with evil.
He can be tempted to turn stones into bread, and to reveal Himself earlier than He wanted to.
He can be tempted to usurp the power that was already His.
But He cannot be tempted with evil.

True, Jesus's divine nature within him could not be tempted with evil, but Jesus's human nature could, and was tempted with evil.

What evil was He tempted with?

 

[Curtis]

"To do" has nothing at all to do with the discussion.
He can't be tempted with evil.
He can be tempted to turn stones into bread, and to reveal Himself earlier than He wanted to.
He can be tempted to usurp the power that was already His.
But He cannot be tempted with evil.

This is why you can not understand the scriptures, because Jesus was a man with a human nature that could be tempted, and he was God with a divine nature that could not be tempted.
Would a man sweat drops of blood because he was being tempted to good or because he was being tempted to not do the will of his Father?


Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luk 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

 

[At Peace]

Would you call God the Father as being divine?

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Yes, I would.

Kinda makes me think...If we were made in His image, He must also have a "human" nature.
I thank God for making His divine nature available to us here and now. (2 Peter 1:4)