What Is HELL ?

[Butch5]

The elephant is created by your belief. As you believe death = annihilation, you have to believe life = living / no annihilation.

When you understand that death is not annihilation, you will understand that life is not simply "living".

What is death?

 

[Butch5]

I can promise you that ending someone's existence is not love. Honoring the choice of their decision to not repent of their sins and creating a place for them to continue to live, is.

No free will is evil. Imagine killing a lady that refuses to marry you. If you don't think it's evil, you have clearly not thought on it.

God is good in that He creates a home for the wicked.

The problem with eternal torment is not with scripture or God's " love", it is with assumptions arrived at by those who cherry pick verses on hell, as I have tried to explain in this forum on a million occasions .

Most envision a brazen bull type suffering for the wicked in hell after reading verses stating "fire" in hell. Jesus gives us an idea of suffering in fire in Luke 16 and it is far from a brazen bull. We can expect the most humane punishment and life for the wicked that is possible. God does not repay evil with evil.

God is not only "love" , He is also just and righteous in all His ways job 34:12, Psalm 145:17.

This is what happens when someone takes a parable literally.

 

[Butch5]

Somehow we've gone from from what Jesus and the apostles say, to what David says... but that's not "bait and switch"?

It's another one of God's people saying the same thing. The dead are dead

I can not see how this doesn't answer the question. Dead people will feel torment forever. You can ignore these verses if you want to.
I have yet to see you address them in any post.

No offense but this is ridiculous. Do they give dead bodies anesthesia before an autopsy?

Psa 146:4; His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
Eccl 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Psa 104:29; You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.

"His" spirit ( the man's spirit )
"their" spirit ( the person's spirit )

Right! Both his and their are possessive. They indicate possession, not person. They have a spirit, not they are a spirit. What spirit do they have? The breath of life from God found in Genesis.

I have, it's not in ANY Bible I have, nor ANY lexicon I have.

Then all I can suggest is to invest in a quality lexicon. If a simple Google search reveals more than your lexicon it's time to upgrade.

Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

From Strongs

αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Total KJV occurrences: 71

From NASEC

αἰώνιος
aiōnios; from 165; eternal:—
eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

From Google

https://translate.google.com/?sl=el&tl=en&text=%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%8E%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82%20&op=translate

From concordant

The Greek Words Aiõn and Aiõnios - Concordant Publishing Concern

www.concordant.org

What I must conclude from this that you source of authority is Mr. Strong, Google, and Concordant, rather the Jesus and the apostles. If you had mentioned this upfront we could have avoided all of this. My source of authority is Jesus and the apostles. Apparently we have different sources of authority.

 

[Bill Taylor]

The elephant is created by your belief. As you believe death = annihilation, you have to believe life = living / no annihilation.

When you understand that death is not annihilation, you will understand that life is not simply "living".

I go a little deeper than that and I might be wrong but Ruah has not taught me differently. I see the Great White Throne in Heaven and every lost man and woman will be there for their sentencing. They are judged by Yashuah and they will see they were wrong and they will know the glory of our Elohime and the splender of Heaven.

I am not knowledgeable enough to pronounce the Lake of Fire a metaphor or a fact but either way, with the known defensiveness of the Lost Man I can see the wailing and gnashing of teeth. And then there is the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man where the man could see Heaven, it is food for thought.

 

[KingJ]

What is death?

See my post #211

 

[KingJ]

This is what happens when someone takes a parable literally.

Its not a parable.

Even if it is, it is the only passage of scripture that explains suffering one can expect in fire. Any teaching to the contrary is therefore 100% unscriptural.

 

[KingJ]

@Butch5

Your replies are now the third dodge of my arguments against your belief.

Your teaching suggests God is unjust. It is heretical.

You believe God is ''love'' but not ''just''. Imagine that.

 

[Butch5]

See my post #211

You said,

"Butch, you cherry pick logic. Using your reasoning, Jesus should not exist right now. Death should be annihilation. You must not believe any can be saved........

What logic you are dodging is the fact that if the wages of sin is death and the death of Jesus satisfied God's demands, then what Jesus endured is clearly ''death''.

1. Beaten and bruised for our iniquities Isa 53:10
2. Crucified / physical death Matt 27
3. Completely abandoned by God Matt 27:46

1 + 2 + 3 = Death"

No, Jesus should be alive right now because He was resurrected

The death of Jesus did not satisfy God's demands. That's Penal Atonement. Another erroneous doctrine that came out of the Reformation .

Beaten and bruised is not death.
Separation from God is not death. Saul was completely separated from God and was quite alive.

The crucifixion "CAUSED" death. Death is the cessation of life. You seem to be obsessed with the word annihilation. The dead are dead.

You guys have to realize that you can't make things up as you go.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5

Your replies are now the third dodge of my arguments against your belief.

Your teaching suggests God is unjust. It is heretical.

You believe God is ''love'' but not ''just''. Imagine that.

No, what is heretical is imposing a penalty other than what God said. Not only that but it's misrepresenting God to the world. That's a dangerous place to be

For the wages of sin is death.
The soul that sins shall die.

I haven't dodged your question. You simply ingored the answer.

Is stealing candy a sin? Yes or no?
Does the soul that sins die? Yes or no?

You see I answered your question. You just didn't like the answer.

If God says capital punishment is the sentence for jay walking then it's just.

Just because KingJ doesn't think it's just doesn't change anything.

 

[Butch5]

Its not a parable.

Even if it is, it is the only passage of scripture that explains suffering one can expect in fire. Any teaching to the contrary is therefore 100% unscriptural.

No it's not.

And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

as is clearly evident fron the passage Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. The Pharisees didn't believe in ghosts.

"Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

The Holy Bible: King James Version

As is clearly evident in the passage Jesus only spoke to them in Parables. Thus, the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable.

It's also not the only place where someone suffers in fire in hell Jesus is actually alluding to the song of Moses. God gave the song to Moses to teach to the Isrselites about how in the latter days they would turn away from God.



"They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God;
They have provoked me to anger with their vanities:
And I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people;
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
For a fire is kindled in mine anger,
And shall burn unto the lowest hell,
And shall consume the earth with her increase,
And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
I will heap mischiefs upon them;"
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

We see here that it is God's anger that shall burn to the Lowest hell or Hades when this judgment takes place. Paul also quotes from this passage and applies it to his day. So, we know when it was. This is flame that the Rich Man is suffering in Hades.

This passage and the one in the "Parable" of the Rich Man and Lazarus are the only two passages of Scriputre that speak of fire in Hades. So, it's clear that Jesus was referring back to this passage.

I spent a whole chapter in my book breaking this parable down. Look at the details and see if you can figure out what they mean.

 

[KingJ]

No, what is heretical is imposing a penalty other than what God said. Not only that but it's misrepresenting God to the world. That's a dangerous place to be

For the wages of sin is death.
The soul that sins shall die.

I haven't dodged your question. You simply ingored the answer.

Is stealing candy a sin? Yes or no?
Does the soul that sins die? Yes or no?

You see I answered your question. You just didn't like the answer.

If God says capital punishment is the sentence for jay walking then it's just.

Just because KingJ doesn't think it's just doesn't change anything.

As a Christian who should agree with God, you would sign an order to have a child that stole candy receive the lethal injection? Yes or no. Stop dodging. Just answer yes or no.

Now when you grasp that every person on this planet with a working brain given them by God would say no, good luck defending a God who would say yes. Then teaching He is " good" and "just". It's actually quite funny.

This is why the unsaved correctly call some Christians, mad.

 

[KingJ]

No it's not.

And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

as is clearly evident fron the passage Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. The Pharisees didn't believe in ghosts.

"Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

The Holy Bible: King James Version

As is clearly evident in the passage Jesus only spoke to them in Parables. Thus, the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable.

It's also not the only place where someone suffers in fire in hell Jesus is actually alluding to the song of Moses. God gave the song to Moses to teach to the Isrselites about how in the latter days they would turn away from God.



"They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God;
They have provoked me to anger with their vanities:
And I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people;
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
For a fire is kindled in mine anger,
And shall burn unto the lowest hell,
And shall consume the earth with her increase,
And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
I will heap mischiefs upon them;"
The Holy Bible: King James Version.

We see here that it is God's anger that shall burn to the Lowest hell or Hades when this judgment takes place. Paul also quotes from this passage and applies it to his day. So, we know when it was. This is flame that the Rich Man is suffering in Hades.

This passage and the one in the "Parable" of the Rich Man and Lazarus are the only two passages of Scriputre that speak of fire in Hades. So, it's clear that Jesus was referring back to this passage.

I spent a whole chapter in my book breaking this parable down. Look at the details and see if you can figure out what they mean.

Disagree, but as I said in my post, parable or story is irrelevant in this instance.

Anyone who suggests a torturous fire are outside of scripture from Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

As a Christian who should agree with God, you would sign an order to have a child that stole candy receive the lethal injection? Yes or no. Stop dodging. Just answer yes or no.

Now when you grasp that every person on this planet with a working brain given them by God would say no, good luck defending a God who would say yes. Then teaching He is " good" and "just". It's actually quite funny.

This is why the unsaved correctly call some Christians, mad.

This is the fallacy known as an appeal to emotion. It's an error in reasoning.

Why does the child who steals candy die? If that was his only sin would he still die?

All Adam did was simply disobey and command. He didn't even steal anything.

At the resurrection when you judge God let know how that turns out.

 

[Butch5]

People say they believe the Bible, but unreality they really don't.

Paul said the wages of sin is death. In order to hold to ETC one must disbelieve this. Instead they must believe that the penalty for sin eternal torment.

God said, 'the soul that sins shall die.'

To hold the ETC doctrine one must disbelieve God. They must hold that the soul that sins will live and suffer eternal torment.

Scriputre tells us that the dead nothing and that their reasoning perishes the very day they die

To hold the ETC doctrine one must disbelieve these Scriptures. The doctrine holds that the dead know a lot and remember a lot.

These are just few of the passages the the ETC doctrine flatly contradicts. In order to hold the doctrine one must disagree with these passages.

As Christians, you guys are In a dangerous place. It's not even a matter of interpretation. You're forced to disagree with Scripture. I'd be rethinking this doctrine quickly if it were me.

 

[KingJ]

This is the fallacy known as an appeal to emotion. It's an error in reasoning.

Why does the child who steals candy die? If that was his only sin would he still die?

All Adam did was simply disobey and command. He didn't even steal anything.

At the resurrection when you judge God let know how that turns out.

Lol, it's 100% not an appeal to emotion. It's right and wrong. Just and unjust.

You believe and teach God is unjust. You dance around this fact.

On judgemental day I will not need to judge God, I will understand and agree with His decisions. Just like Abraham did with Sodom in Gen 18 and Moses with Jews worshiping the golden calf.

When you stand before God oneday, good luck explaining to Him how you ratified teaching Him as unjust to the lost He loves and died for. All because you held fast to "death = annihilation" and did not accept correction even when your belief was identified as heretical as you are guilty of terribly misrepresenting Him as unjust. When scripture is crystal clear that He is just Job 34:12.

 

[Butch5]

Lol, it's 100% not an appeal to emotion. It's right and wrong. Just and unjust.

You believe and teach God is unjust. You dance around this fact.

On judgemental day I will not need to judge God, I will understand and agree with His decisions. Just like Abraham did with Sodom in Gen 18 and Moses with Jews worshiping the golden calf.

When you stand before God oneday, good luck explaining to Him how you ratified teaching Him as unjust to the lost He loves and died for. All because you held fast to "death = annihilation" and did not accept correction even when your belief was identified as heretical as you are guilty of terribly misrepresenting Him as unjust. When scripture is crystal clear that He is just Job 34:12.

It's not I who is conflict with Scripture. I'm not the one saying that God tortures the wicked. You and other have repeatedly ignored what God Himself said. 'The soul that sins shall die.' As I said, you guys don't believe that. Thus you reject Scripture. That statement isn't a question of interpretation. It's crystal clear. 'The soul that sins shall die.' From what you have said here I have to conclude that you believe candy thieves will receive eternal life. But, why stop at candy? What about tv's, cars, etc? I guess everyone gets salvation, huh?

I notice you side stepped the question about Adam. You've not addressed God's words either, 'the soul that sins shall die.'

Pretending to be just doesn't work when you claim there is an infinite punishment for a finite crime. That sends your whole justice argument up in smoke. Let me ask, will that candy thief suffer eternally for his deed? Then please explain how that is just. You see another problem that comes from holding to Platonic Dualism.

My friend, if anyone has shown a doctrine false here, it's me. We're on page 14 and not one of you has explained how and where the wicked get eternal life. Not one of you can produce a passage of Scripture that states man "IS" a spirit or breath. Everyone's making that claim but not one has substantiate it from Scripture. Why is that? I'll tell why it is. It's because it's not in Scripture. If it was, surely someone would have presented it by now.

You guys are mixing Greek philospohy with Scripture. That's what the Gnostics did. That's the reason the second death get redefined to mean eternal life. That's why some are in here preaching reincarnation instead of resurrection. People are preaching Platonic Dualism. If Platonic Dualism is what the Scripture teach ask yourself why it is that neither the Saducees, Pharisees, nor the Scribes, believed that man was a ghost? These were the men who were trusted with interpreting God's word. They did so for several thousand years and never came to the conclusion that man is a ghost. Why is it that after God's word goes to the Greeks we suddenly see this idea that man is a ghost?

If you guys were as determined to get to the truth as you are to prove me wrong you'd learn a lot.

 

[KingJ]

It's not I who is conflict with Scripture. I'm not the one saying that God tortures the wicked.

Those who teach torture as described in this thread Discussion on Torture need to be terrified of misrepresentation of God, we agree on that.

Annihilationism = 2/10 'bad' in that it raises the eyebrow on God's justness and righteousness.
Torture in hell = 11/10 'bad' as it implies God sit atop a list of the most evil beings to ever exist.

You and other have repeatedly ignored what God Himself said. 'The soul that sins shall die.' As I said, you guys don't believe that. Thus you reject Scripture. That statement isn't a question of interpretation. It's crystal clear. 'The soul that sins shall die.' From what you have said here I have to conclude that you believe candy thieves will receive eternal life. But, why stop at candy? What about tv's, cars, etc? I guess everyone gets salvation, huh?

To clarify my belief, which I can support with scripture. I believe one who is ''sold out to a love of what is evil / can never truly repent' goes to eternal hell. There will be levels of suffering in hell according to the actual sins you are guilty of. Just as in heaven, there will be levels, but you are there as your repentance of sins carries weight with God.

God will punish the devil with fire in front of the host of angels according to Revelations, this because He knows all will agree with this punishment for the devil. Nobody will say ''oh he was only a candy thief who never wanted to return the candy''. If that were the case, everyone in heaven would object. Please try understand that.

I notice you side stepped the question about Adam. You've not addressed God's words either, 'the soul that sins shall die.'

I address 'death in post #211

Pretending to be just doesn't work when you claim there is an infinite punishment for a finite crime.

Separation can be seen as a 'punishment' but its not really. Its their choice to not repent. God creates a home for the wicked. That a place where wicked are is terrible is unavoidable. God does thus not beat around the bush in calling it a place of eternal torment.

I believe there are so many intricacies to hell that many do not grasp because they do not properly meditate on God and the topic. A lot like earth which has a lot more going on then merely the four curses God verbalized to Adam and Eve.

That sends your whole justice argument up in smoke. Let me ask, will that candy thief suffer eternally for his deed? Then please explain how that is just. You see another problem that comes from holding to Platonic Dualism.

If the candy thief never wants to return the candy, you think such a person will ever live with those who do truly repent of their sins? Of course not.

This however does not then equate to the candy thief being placed with unrepentant rapists or receiving lethal injection. Imagine that.

Paul ''REBUKES'' Christians who cannot judge matters better then the unsaved in 1 Cor 6:1-9. Now we assume God will be first on that list? That's hilarious.

My friend, if anyone has shown a doctrine false here, it's me. We're on page 14 and not one of you has explained how and where the wicked get eternal life.

As I have stated in an earlier post, you have created the elephant in the room. The question only exists if you believe death = annihilation.

Not one of you can produce a passage of Scripture that states man "IS" a spirit or breath. Everyone's making that claim but not one has substantiate it from Scripture. Why is that? I'll tell why it is. It's because it's not in Scripture. If it was, surely someone would have presented it by now.

?

There are a few scriptures that state we are body, soul and spirit.

1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You guys are mixing Greek philospohy with Scripture. That's what the Gnostics did. That's the reason the second death get redefined to mean eternal life. That's why some are in here preaching reincarnation instead of resurrection. People are preaching Platonic Dualism. If Platonic Dualism is what the Scripture teach ask yourself why it is that neither the Saducees, Pharisees, nor the Scribes, believed that man was a ghost? These were the men who were trusted with interpreting God's word. They did so for several thousand years and never came to the conclusion that man is a ghost. Why is it that after God's word goes to the Greeks we suddenly see this idea that man is a ghost?

If you guys were as determined to get to the truth as you are to prove me wrong you'd learn a lot.

You are too caught up in this. You need to take a step back and think more logically.

Accept the fact that @BUTCH would never ever, in a centillion years place an unrepentant candy thief with unrepentant serial rapists, let alone give them the lethal injection.

God '''IS'''' 10000000000% Just. That is a fact. That is a known part of the equation. You cannot remove that from your 'X'. X being a vastly 'unknown' future event.

 

[Bill Taylor]

As a Christian who should agree with God, you would sign an order to have a child that stole candy receive the lethal injection? Yes or no. Stop dodging. Just answer yes or no.

Now when you grasp that every person on this planet with a working brain given them by God would say no, good luck defending a God who would say yes. Then teaching He is " good" and "just". It's actually quite funny.

This is why the unsaved correctly call some Christians, mad.

I dislike the basis your metaphor is constructed upon, it is an emotional extreme. Scripture, i.e. Rom 3:10 & Rom 3:23, teaches that all sin, save repentance unto salvation, receives Eternal Punishment in the Lake of Fire. We do not live for Yehovah and Yashuah by man-made wisdom but we Live for our God by the instruction found in The Word.

 

[KingJ]

I dislike the basis your metaphor is constructed upon, it is an emotional extreme. Scripture, i.e. Rom 3:10 & Rom 3:23, teaches that all sin, save repentance unto salvation, receives Eternal Punishment in the Lake of Fire. We do not live for Yehovah and Yashuah by man-made wisdom but we Live for our God by the instruction found in The Word.

Can you be more specific on which line you disagree with.

Remember that God has given us and angels the ability to grasp what is good and evil Gen 3:22. God forbid we not use what we are given to judge all things 1 Cor 2:15.

This belief and insinuation that God has an evil side and we can't judge Him for it is sick and rotten Christianity. Terribly lazy discernment of God and scripture.

Makes me feel sick to be honest. Christians who are " ok " with evil actions from God are serving the wrong god.

If any teach or imply something that paints and taints God as evil they are guilty of misrepresenting God and scripture. Scripture is crystal clear that God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

Perhaps explain what you envision when you think of fire from a good God? That way I wont make false assumptions about your belief.

 

[Bill Taylor]

Can you be more specific on which line you disagree with.

Remember that God has given us and angels the ability to grasp what is good and evil Gen 3:22. God forbid we not use what we are given to judge all things 1 Cor 2:15.

This belief and insinuation that God has an evil side and we can't judge Him for it is sick and rotten Christianity. Terribly lazy discernment of God and scripture.

Makes me feel sick to be honest. Christians who are " ok " with evil actions from God are serving the wrong god.

If any teach or imply something that paints and taints God as evil they are guilty of misrepresenting God and scripture. Scripture is crystal clear that God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

Perhaps explain what you envision when you think of fire from a good God? That way I wont make false assumptions about your belief.

the example of little person who is not responsible for their sin until the age of accountability.