You're free to disagree, however, that just makes you wrong. You're not disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with Jesus and the apostles. They said it ends. Why didn't you address the passages? They're still there. Jesus and the apostles said the aion ends. I could show you many more passages where the aion ends. How many do you need? The real question is why did you just brush these passages aside? How do you expect to find the truth of Scripture if you're brushing aside passages that don't agree with your theology?
Regarding Rev 14:11, look at the context. Those people are alive. You posted,
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 14:11.
The word translated "worship" is present active. That means they are worshipping. These people are alive. The next verse, 12 verifies this.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 14:12.
John says, "here" is the patients of the saint: "here" are they that keep the commandments of God. The word translated "here" means, at that location. The saints are at that location. Is it your contention that the saints are suffering eternal torment in the Lake of Fire? No, these people are alive and worshipping the Beast and the saints are there.
It's things like this that show me that many people who argue this position just use proof texts. If one actually reads the passage in context it's clear that these people are alive. The problem is, people see torment and forever and ever and immediately "assume" their doctrine. Here's something else to consider. Do you really believe there is day and night in this place of eternal torment? If this Lake of Fire is somewhere down in the earth when the ghosts of the dead are tormented, how could there be day and night? Doesn't that require the sun?
Again< you're free to disagree, but you're disagreeing with Scripture. Jude states palinly that what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was aionios fire or as the English puts it, eternal fire. Well, It's clear beyond any doubt that those two cities are not still burning. It was just them it was also the cities in the plains around them. That would be one massive fire. It would be visible from space. But yet it's not there This shows beyond any doubt that aionios fire is NOT eternal.
No, God didn't say, if you eat of the tree of Good and Evil you will be cast out of my presence. He said Adam would die. What was that death? God explains it Himself; we don't have to guess.
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 3:17–19.
The death Adam would die is returning to the dust.
You avoided the question.
Are God and Paul both wrong? If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then one must answer yes to this question. What say you?
If you disagree, show me where this teaching is found in Scripture. Taking a few passages out of context is not teaching. Where do God, the Prophets, Jesus, or the apostles, layout a teaching showing the consequences of sin.
To answer your question, no I am not a Calvinist.
It's not a question of can He. The question is, does He. Again, what did He say? 'The soul that sins shall die'. He didn't say anything about eternal torment. God could give eternal life to everyone. However, that's not what we find in the Bible. In the Bible eternal life is "only" given to believers.
I never said anything about the statement. You brought it up. However, if that's wicked, how much more so is, accept me or burn forever? Do you think it's better to burn forever than to simply die?
I need to consider a lot of Scripture? I've considered a lot of Scripture on this subject. I've literally studied it for years. Notice, the demons didn't ask if Jesus came to torment them forever. Let's look at what God said through David about the wicked.
Psalm 37
A Psalm of David.
1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers,
Neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.
3 Trust in the LORD, and do good;
So shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
4 Delight thyself also in the LORD;
And he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
5 Commit thy way unto the LORD;
Trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light,
And thy judgment as the noonday.
7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him:
Fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way,
Because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath:
Fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off:
But those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be:
Yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth;
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
12 The wicked plotteth against the just,
And gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13 The Lord shall laugh at him:
For he seeth that his day is coming.
14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow,
To cast down the poor and needy,
And to slay such as be of upright conversation.
15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart,
And their bows shall be broken.
16 A little that a righteous man hath
Is better than the riches of many wicked.
17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken:
But the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright:
And their inheritance shall be for ever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time:
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish,
And the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs:
They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again:
But the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.
22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth;
And they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD:
And he delighteth in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down:
For the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
25 I have been young, and now am old;
Yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken,
Nor his seed begging bread.
26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth;
And his seed is blessed.
27 Depart from evil, and do good;
And dwell for evermore.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment,
And forsaketh not his saints;
They are preserved for ever:
But the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell therein for ever.
30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom,
And his tongue talketh of judgment.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
None of his steps shall slide.
32 The wicked watcheth the righteous,
And seeketh to slay him.
33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand,
Nor condemn him when he is judged.
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way,
And he shall exalt thee to inherit the land:
When the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
35 I have seen the wicked in great power,
And spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not:
Yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright:
For the end of that man is peace.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together:
The end of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD:
He is their strength in the time of trouble.
40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them:
He shall deliver them from the wicked,
And save them, because they trust in him.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 37
Just in this one Psalm we see the wicked, cut off, perish, are destroyed, passed away, could not be found, shall not be, and his sword will enter his own heart. In all of those descriptions of what will happen to the wicked, there is no mention of eternal torment. In verse 20 the Hebrew word translated consume means to disappear. The wicked shall disappear, in smoke they shall disappear. That sure sounds like the Lake of Fire to me. They shall be burned up and disappear as smoke.
Seriously, I would urge you forgo your theology and take a serious look at the Scriptures. A theology built on proof texts is a house built on sand. We know what Jesus said about building our house on sand.
This place here is for "WARRIORS" when it is time to move, and not be in a place, where Angels fear to tread.
www.bcworldview.org
