What is Sin & is it OK to be Sin Free?

[B-A-C]

@BAC Jesus said he NEVER knew them that means they were never saved to me,

OK... I said... for sake of debate... lets say that is true... now what about the rest?

Ok they were never saved. But why not? Because of they kept on sinning.
That was the point.

 

[Born Again 2004]

OK... I said... for sake of debate... lets say that is true... now what about the rest?
Ok they were never saved. But why not? Because of they kept on sinning.
That was the point.

I posted the below at @ 9:21 AM
You posted the above @ 12: 30 AM and asked Brother Dave the same thing. Did you not want to answer my 2 questions below!

I personally don't agree that they were never saved.
@B-A-C , You and I have debated for a long time now and I know how you stand.
But as you say, for the sake debate, would you mind answering the two following questions:

• Are you a true "Born Again" Christian?
• Can you Leave God or otherwise do the things that you say that these people do?

 

[Hekuran]

On the verses from Matthew 7, don't miss the next step in jesus' thought: 'Therefore anyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice...' The 'words' are the sermon on the mount. Who can attain to that standard of perfection?

 

[At Peace]

Ecclesiastes 7:20 ESV / 10 helpful votes
Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.


Romans 3:23 ESV / 41 helpful votes
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

1 John 1:8 ESV / 34 helpful votes
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Romans 6:6 ESV / 13 helpful votes
We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Romans 7:18 ESV / 12 helpful votes
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Galatians 5:16 ESV / 11 helpful votes
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Kind of a a mixed message there...
Do you have a point?

 

[At Peace]

I personally don't agree that they were never saved. But for sake of debate, lets say they never were saved.
What determines this? How do we know they aren't saved? Let's look at Jesus's words in this passage.

As "salvation" wont be assured till after the final judgement, for the sake of debate about where they "will" end up, let's look at 1 John 3...
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
It seems pretty clear that sinners are not born of God, so have no assurance of a good judgement.
Grape vines cannot bear figs.
God's seed remains in those that "will be" saved.

 

[At Peace]

On the verses from Matthew 7, don't miss the next step in jesus' thought: 'Therefore anyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice...' The 'words' are the sermon on the mount. Who can attain to that standard of perfection?

The reborn from God's seed can.
Thanks be to God!

 

[Dave M]

Kind of a a mixed message there...
Do you have a point?

you just said the word of God is a mixed up message

 

[Lanolin]

This is funny that many versions of the bible miss out one really important word in Luke 5:32

I will post the KJV. People who dont read the KJV probably dont even know about this important word.

What word is it...? If you took the end of the verse/sentence out it would read very differently. Jesus could be just calling people names!

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The reborn from God's seed can.
Thanks be to God!

With God nothing is impossible.

Also people are forgetting there were righteous and faithful are the ones doing what God says..with His help. Jesus sends us the helper...we arent doing it on our own.

Does anyone know the song

The wise man built his house upon the rock...
The wise man built his house upon the rock...

This is from Matthew 7

Whar about the foolish man? He has a verse too.

Does God make it impossible for anyone to be wise? Well no hes given us books of wisdom and proverbs to learn from! If we ask God for wisdom we He will give it liberally. So I wouldnt say its impossible for anyone to become like Jesus and be perfect if they walk in Jesus ways. They wont fall. Maybe someone might throw a stumbling stone their way but even if perhaps they do fall they can pick themselves up again and keep going! And He also leads us from temptation and delivers us from evil, what an amazing God!

 

[B-A-C]

I am reminded of a story in a newspaper a few years back about an elderly man whose wife died.
He wanted to clean out his house, so he hired some college kids to help him go through all of his stuff.
But everytime they suggested he throw something away, he told them he wanted to keep it for some reason or another. They went through the shed, the attic, the basement, the garage, the spare bedroom, and even boxes hidden under the bed. It took them a week to go through all of this stuff, but in the end... the man only ended up getting rid of a small bag of a few things. It turns out... he didn't really want to get rid of everything after all.

It's funny we tell people they shouldn't sin. Some even say, well if they were really a Christian they wouldn't do those things. We write articles about the power of God, how He changed our lives, how He can heal, and give us wisdom and do miracles. How He has the power to resurrect from dead, not only Himself but us as well.

We ask people "Will homosexuals go to heaven? Child molesters? Murderers? Wife beaters? Drug dealers?"
..and usually people say "no". Not unless they repent and quit doing those things.

Then we say something like... well, they don't have the power to change their lives on their own. Only God, or only by the power of the Holy Spirit God can change you.....

...so far, so good....

But then after that, we turn around and say... "just kidding". You can't really change. God really doesn't have the power to change peoples hearts and make them hate sin. I guess we tricked them... we really had those people fooled... they thought our God had had some mystical power to really make them stop sinning. Too bad for them we know it doesn't really work that way.

We never stop sinning, we never change, ... I repent alright... heck, I been repenting of that same sin every day for 30 years.

Or maybe we tell them.... it's OK if you do "little sins"... but not "big sins". Child molesters and homosexuals won't make it to heaven... but those of us who struggle with pornography, lust, drinking, and cursing... we are covered.

Jesus forgives "some sins", but not "all sins". Really? Where does He draw the line? My Bible says if break even a small sin, we are just as guilty as if we did every sin. There are no "small white lies" and there are no "big sins".... all sin is sin.
...Period...

We look at the sermon of the mount... and say to ourselves... "that's just too hard... that's impossible". I'll never be able to do that. Well with that attitude... you never will. You call yourself a believer... but you don't really believe God has the power to do what He said He would do. Destroy the works of Satan. Even the ones that came from you. (in some people's cases... still coming from them). They say... I don't serve the devil... but those same people say...
"I just can't quit gambling".. I just can't stop cursing... I just can't stop looking at pornography.... It's too hard for me...
and it's too hard for God.

... really..?

Matt 19:26; And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Mark 9:23; And Jesus said to him, " 'If You can?' All things are possible to him who believes."

Luke 18:27; But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God."

The power of Jesus isn't just to "forgive" your sins. The Spirit also enables us "to walk by the Spirit".
OSAS people say God never leaves you or forsakes you... but then they turn around and say "He leaves you long enough to let you sin sometimes". These are the same people who say... "if you were really a Christian, you wouldn't do those things".

Luke 24:49; "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."
Acts 1:8; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings men,

Nice to see a wholesome discussion going on. Please don't forget the OP.


Bless you ....><>

 

[SearchforBelievers]

Romans 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

 

[SearchforBelievers]

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[Dave M]

I do not believe anyone in here has said you can keep being a sinner, what they are saying (i think) is you wont be perfect and you wont be a slave to sin but since you are still of flesh you will have a in-pure thought which makes you compared to God a worthless Rag and with out Jesus Christ to cover for your sins you are nothing. What people here are saying (i think) is yes there is a huge difference between being a slaved to sin and being saved as you will have a transformed life but if you are honest with yourself you still will have a un-pure thought and that makes you a sinner.

The closer I get to God the more I realize what a sinner I am. I do not know of one preacher that preaches we will perfect while in the in the flesh, its impossible. No one in this thread is suggesting that you do not change, no one in this thread is suggesting its ok to remain practicing sin. .

thats my take on it which seems very different from your view, you seem to be thinking we will be perfect and sinless or do you agree with me that we will never be perfect and sinless until we have glorified bodies, BUT WE WILL BE MUCH BETTER AND FAR DIFFERENT FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD !! but please stay humble as God has done that to us, we have not changed our own hearts God does that.


I have people trying to argue with me about sin and it can not be un-intentional however God speaks about this in the book Of Leviticus so if we can have sin that is un-intentional how can we ever be perfect.

THE STUFF IN YOUR POST HAS NOTHING TO WITH WHAT PEOPLE ARE CLAIMING IN THIS THREAD BROTHER @BAC

 

[Born Again 2004]

OSAS people say God never leaves you or forsakes you... but then they turn around and say "He leaves you long enough to let you sin sometimes". These are the same people who say... "if you were really a Christian, you wouldn't do those things".

I have often debated you on OSAS and I agree that God has said " He would never leave or forsake us", so I am partly "one of your people" but who is that have said " He leaves you long enough to let you sin sometimes" ????? who would say such a thing? Your response is full of untruths...I have NEVER heard such a thing, much less, that God would let you sin????......If you have time would you please answer to the questions I asked you some threads ago:

• Are you a true "Born Again" Christian?
• Can you Leave God or otherwise do the things that you say that these people do?

 

[B-A-C]

I have NEVER heard such a thing, much less, that God would let you sin????......If you have time would you please answer to the questions I asked you some threads ago:

• Are you a true "Born Again" Christian?
• Can you Leave God or otherwise do the things that you say that these people do?

If God doesn't "let" you sin... then how are you able to sin at all?

Am I born again Christian? Of course every Christian "thinks" they are born again.
In my case... B-A-C stands for Born Again Christian.

We are of course able to be born physically, and we are more than capable of "dying" physically.
We can be born spiritually... and we are capable of dying spiritually.

I myself have never left God... but I've known dozens of people who have. Some have been pastors,
missionaries, worship leaders. Even more relevant... I know people who "think" they are living Godly lives...
simply by virtue of "believing in Jesus".

God never forsook anyone... but the Bible is full of dozens of verses of people that forsook Him. Here is a small sampling, there are many more.

Deut 29:25; "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
Deut 32:15; "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Jdgs 2:12; and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdgs 2:13; So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
Jdgs 10:6; Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.
1Kin 9:9; "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.'"

 

[At Peace]

you just said the word of God is a mixed up message

You just posted three verses that are mistakenly used to justify sin in the believer, and one against the same position.
What is your position on the OP?

 

[At Peace]

I am reminded of a story in a newspaper a few years back about an elderly man whose wife died.
He wanted to clean out his house, so he hired some college kids to help him go through all of his stuff.
But everytime they suggested he throw something away, he told them he wanted to keep it for some reason or another. They went through the shed, the attic, the basement, the garage, the spare bedroom, and even boxes hidden under the bed. It took them a week to go through all of this stuff, but in the end... the man only ended up getting rid of a small bag of a few things. It turns out... he didn't really want to get rid of everything after all.

It's funny we tell people they shouldn't sin. Some even say, well if they were really a Christian they wouldn't do those things. We write articles about the power of God, how He changed our lives, how He can heal, and give us wisdom and do miracles. How He has the power to resurrect from dead, not only Himself but us as well.

We ask people "Will homosexuals go to heaven? Child molesters? Murderers? Wife beaters? Drug dealers?"
..and usually people say "no". Not unless they repent and quit doing those things.

Then we say something like... well, they don't have the power to change their lives on their own. Only God, or only by the power of the Holy Spirit God can change you.....

...so far, so good....

But then after that, we turn around and say... "just kidding". You can't really change. God really doesn't have the power to change peoples hearts and make them hate sin. I guess we tricked them... we really had those people fooled... they thought our God had had some mystical power to really make them stop sinning. Too bad for them we know it doesn't really work that way.

We never stop sinning, we never change, ... I repent alright... heck, I been repenting of that same sin every day for 30 years.

Or maybe we tell them.... it's OK if you do "little sins"... but not "big sins". Child molesters and homosexuals won't make it to heaven... but those of us who struggle with pornography, lust, drinking, and cursing... we are covered.

Jesus forgives "some sins", but not "all sins". Really? Where does He draw the line? My Bible says if break even a small sin, we are just as guilty as if we did every sin. There are no "small white lies" and there are no "big sins".... all sin is sin.
...Period...

We look at the sermon of the mount... and say to ourselves... "that's just too hard... that's impossible". I'll never be able to do that. Well with that attitude... you never will. You call yourself a believer... but you don't really believe God has the power to do what He said He would do. Destroy the works of Satan. Even the ones that came from you. (in some people's cases... still coming from them). They say... I don't serve the devil... but those same people say...
"I just can't quit gambling".. I just can't stop cursing... I just can't stop looking at pornography.... It's too hard for me...
and it's too hard for God.

... really..?

Matt 19:26; And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Mark 9:23; And Jesus said to him, " 'If You can?' All things are possible to him who believes."

Luke 18:27; But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God."

The power of Jesus isn't just to "forgive" your sins. The Spirit also enables us "to walk by the Spirit".
OSAS people say God never leaves you or forsakes you... but then they turn around and say "He leaves you long enough to let you sin sometimes". These are the same people who say... "if you were really a Christian, you wouldn't do those things".

Luke 24:49; "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."
Acts 1:8; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

AMEN!
May the glory and power of the Holy Spirit continue to "keep the light on" for you and yours.

 

[At Peace]

Romans 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Would you be kind enough to say what this is relevant to?

 

[At Peace]

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I guess your POV is that it is NOT OK to be sin free. (As per the OP)
In 1 John 1, John is describing the walk of two kinds of men.
Those who walk in the darkness-sin, and those who walk in the light-God.
John uses an A-B, A-B, A-B, style of writing here, (as did Paul in Romans 8...Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh)
A, is those in darkness...They cannot say they have fellowship with God, they cannot say they have no sin, and they cannot say they never sinned.
B, is those who walk in the light...They can say they have fellowship with God, they can say the have no sin, and they can say they confessed their past sins before being washed of all sin by the blood of Christ.

It is only men walking in darkness who cannot say they have no sin.

 

[B-A-C]

THE STUFF IN YOUR POST HAS NOTHING TO WITH WHAT PEOPLE ARE CLAIMING IN THIS THREAD BROTHER @BAC

I do have to agree with you at least partly... this perception that they are two different things...
Maybe I didn't do a good job of explaining that it is really one and the same thing.

Perhaps you can do a better job of explaining how they are in fact.... two separate things?

I promise you, I am not being facetious here. I am really interested in how they are "different".

As I write this.. I am praying that God will reveal the truth (not my truth... not your truth... but His truth)
to all of us.