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What is the best analogy to explain the Trinity?

LOL, I don't have that argumentative gene you have.
It's not about being argumentative. You guys are laying out one side of the argument and I'm laying out the other. Those who are following along can evaluate each side and determine which one, if any, they believe is valid.
 
You're right. It is foolish and stupid for any mortal human to think they can understand who and what the Trinity is on significant level.
God doesn't lie. If He said "I am...." and everything in the Bible it's true.
Some of it is parables and allegory b/c trying to explain it would be lost on us. When people and places are named you know it's not either of these but literal accounts.
Humans label and group everything good or bad.
God is a trinitarian being.
Of course his nature would bring up countless questions.
Trying to be on God's level is what started this mess.
Be careful my friend. That's the thinking that leaves us open to error. A person can argue anything is true if we allow them a false premise. When we say God cannot be understood, people can make just about any claim they want and it can't be denied. If we say God can't be understood then someone can claim God is a chocolate bar and say prove me wrong. To which you have no legitimate response. Why, because God can't be understood. If we can't understand God then we can't know that He isn't a chocolate bar.

In all seriousness, it's been my experience that Christians, for the most part, don't think through the implications of their doctrines. If they did, I believe the Christian faith would very different than it is. People Keep saying man can't understand God and the Trinity is a doctrine that we just can't understand. That's the argument. The problem is, The Trinity doctrine was formed by men, who supposedly can't understand God and the Trinity doctrine. Riddle me this, If man can't understand the Trinity doctrine, how did he form it? If man can't understand God, how did he form a doctrine that describes God's nature. See, the problem is those who hold the doctrine want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to tell us the nature of God that He is a being of three persons. However, when that is questioned they want duck behind the "we can't understand God" shield. We can't claim to know God's nature when it's convenient and then claim it can't be known when it's not convenient. We have to choose one or the other.
 
One thing I seriously cannot grasp, is why, in light of all of the evidence, you guys continue to argue for this doctrine. I'm serious, what is it that drives you to continue to argue for it? The evidence against it is overwhelming.

This doctrine wasn't accepted by the church until the fifth century. It was around 450 Ad. That's 350 years after the last apostle. That means for the first 400 years of Christianity Christians didn't know this doctrine. And, according to the Athanasian Creed they couldn't be saved. So, according to the Athanasian creed the first 400 years of Christians we're saved. That would include the apostles.
We have the Nicene Creed of 325 and 386. Neither of which say anything about one God in three persons. They actually counter the doctrine saying that God came out of God and that the Son was begotten.
The doctrine isn't found in Scripture.
The doctrine is refuted all through Scripture. Paul said there is one God, the Father. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. John and Paul both said no one has seen God. Paul said no one can see God . Paul said God is invisible. People have seen Jesus.
Jesus said that the Comforter and Spirit of Truth is figurative language about the Father.
Luke tells us that the Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest.
Luke also records the angel that went to Mary and told her the Holy Spirit would come upon her and she would conceive. That means that the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus. So, either the Holy is the Father, or the Father is not the Father or Jesus. If the Holy Spirit is a third person then He is the father of Jesus.
Jesus said no knows the Son but the Father and no one knows the Father but the Son and whoever the Son reveals Him to. So, how is it that we have three persons that are equally God in a Godhead and the third person of the Godhead doesn't even know the other two? How is that possible?
One being called God consisting of 3 persons is a logical contradiction.
When Paul gives his greetings in his letters to the churches he says things akin to, grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. He doesn't include the Holy Spirit. He's giving greetings to the Chruch from the Godhead and he doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. If we had three persons we would expect Paul to say something akin to, grace to you and peace from God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. But it's not there.
Paul often speaks of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. God can't have a God. God can't be His own Son. God can't be His own Father.
Different accounts of the same event conflate the Father and the Holy Spirit.
As I pointed out today, the doctrine collapses in on itself into a catch 22. The doctrine says that there is one God in three persons, the Father, Son, and Spirit. Each is fully God. So, Jesus is fully God, Does God lie? No. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. So Jesus said someone else is God. So, the Trinitarian who holds that Jesus is God is faced with a conundrum. If they hold to the Trinity doctrine they have to disbelieve what Jesus said. They have to disbelieve God. If they are correct in their disbelief of what He said, they have to hold that He is wrong or lying. In either case he would not be God. On the other hand, if they believe Jesus, then they have to acknowledge that He is not God. Either way the Trintiy doctrine collapses.
Paul said that Jesus is the first born of creation.
Paul said in Hebrews that Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are. James said God cannot be tempted with sin. It can't be both.
Paul calls Jesus the Wisdom of God and proverbs 8 tells us that God begat Wisdom.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Co 2:6–8.

Paul says we speak the Wisdom of God in a mystery. What was the mystery?

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Eph 3:1–5.

Here Paul speaks of the mystery of Christ that was hidden and only revealed in the latter days. Paul said he received it by Revelation. In 1 Cor. he said he was speaking of the hidden Wisdom that God ordained before the world. Then speaking of that Wisdom he says had they known it they wouldn't have crucified the Lord or Glory. That's Jesus. they didn't know God's Wisdom, Jesus. if they had they wouldn't have crucified Him. Proverbs 8 says that God begat Wisdom.

Proverbs 8 Septuagint

22 The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways,
for the sake of his works.
23 Before the present age he founded me,
in the beginning.

24 Before he made the earth and before he made the depths,
before he brought forth the springs of the waters,
25 before the mountains were established
and before all the hills, he begets me.
26 The Lord made countries and uninhabited spaces
and the habitable heights of that beneath the sky.
27 When he prepared the sky, I was present with him,
and when he marked out his own throne on the winds.
28 When he made strong the clouds above
and when he made secure the springs beneath the sky,
29 when he made strong the foundations of the earth,
30 I was beside him, fitting together;
it is I who was the one in whom he took delight.
And each day I was glad in his presence at every moment,

31 when he rejoiced after he had completed the world
and rejoiced among the sons of men.
Pr 8:22–31.

Notice it says before the present age He founded me. Then He says before the hills He begets Me. God begot His Son prior to the creation. Then He says I was beside Him and was glad in His presence. Wisdom says I was beside Him fitting together. The Father spoke and the Son created. Scripture says all things were made through the Son. In this passage He is beside God fitting things together. However, take notice to verse 30. He says, "it is I who was the one in whom He took delight." Who was the one that God delight in?

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Lk 3:22.

The word translated "I am well pleased" also means to delight in, but it's in the wrong tense. It's not in the present tense as our English Bibles read. It's in the Greek past tense. It should read, Thou art my beloved Son in whom I was well pleased or in whom I delighted. God said He delight in His Son. In Proverbs 8:30 It's Wisdom speaking and He says He was the one that God delighted in. Wisdom is the Son of God. That's why Paul said if the rulers of this age had known the Wisdom of God they would not have killed the Lord. Proverbs 8 says that God begat Wisdom. Wisdom, the only begotten Son.

I could go on, but really, if this isn't enough evidence to make anyone considered the doctrine I don't know that any amount would suffice.
 
One thing I seriously cannot grasp, is why, in light of all of the evidence, you guys continue to argue for this doctrine. I'm serious, what is it that drives you to continue to argue for it? The evidence against it is overwhelming.

This doctrine wasn't accepted by the church until the fifth century. It was around 450 Ad. That's 350 years after the last apostle. That means for the first 400 years of Christianity Christians didn't know this doctrine. And, according to the Athanasian Creed they couldn't be saved. So, according to the Athanasian creed the first 400 years of Christians we're saved. That would include the apostles.
We have the Nicene Creed of 325 and 386. Neither of which say anything about one God in three persons. They actually counter the doctrine saying that God came out of God and that the Son was begotten.
The doctrine isn't found in Scripture.
The doctrine is refuted all through Scripture. Paul said there is one God, the Father. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. John and Paul both said no one has seen God. Paul said no one can see God . Paul said God is invisible. People have seen Jesus.
Jesus said that the Comforter and Spirit of Truth is figurative language about the Father.
Luke tells us that the Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest.
Luke also records the angel that went to Mary and told her the Holy Spirit would come upon her and she would conceive. That means that the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus. So, either the Holy is the Father, or the Father is not the Father or Jesus. If the Holy Spirit is a third person then He is the father of Jesus.
Jesus said no knows the Son but the Father and no one knows the Father but the Son and whoever the Son reveals Him to. So, how is it that we have three persons that are equally God in a Godhead and the third person of the Godhead doesn't even know the other two? How is that possible?
One being called God consisting of 3 persons is a logical contradiction.
When Paul gives his greetings in his letters to the churches he says things akin to, grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. He doesn't include the Holy Spirit. He's giving greetings to the Chruch from the Godhead and he doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. If we had three persons we would expect Paul to say something akin to, grace to you and peace from God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. But it's not there.
Paul often speaks of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. God can't have a God. God can't be His own Son. God can't be His own Father.
Different accounts of the same event conflate the Father and the Holy Spirit.
As I pointed out today, the doctrine collapses in on itself into a catch 22. The doctrine says that there is one God in three persons, the Father, Son, and Spirit. Each is fully God. So, Jesus is fully God, Does God lie? No. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. So Jesus said someone else is God. So, the Trinitarian who holds that Jesus is God is faced with a conundrum. If they hold to the Trinity doctrine they have to disbelieve what Jesus said. They have to disbelieve God. If they are correct in their disbelief of what He said, they have to hold that He is wrong or lying. In either case he would not be God. On the other hand, if they believe Jesus, then they have to acknowledge that He is not God. Either way the Trintiy doctrine collapses.
Paul said that Jesus is the first born of creation.
Paul said in Hebrews that Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are. James said God cannot be tempted with sin. It can't be both.
Paul calls Jesus the Wisdom of God and proverbs 8 tells us that God begat Wisdom.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Co 2:6–8.

Paul says we speak the Wisdom of God in a mystery. What was the mystery?

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Eph 3:1–5.

Here Paul speaks of the mystery of Christ that was hidden and only revealed in the latter days. Paul said he received it by Revelation. In 1 Cor. he said he was speaking of the hidden Wisdom that God ordained before the world. Then speaking of that Wisdom he says had they known it they wouldn't have crucified the Lord or Glory. That's Jesus. they didn't know God's Wisdom, Jesus. if they had they wouldn't have crucified Him. Proverbs 8 says that God begat Wisdom.

Proverbs 8 Septuagint

22 The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways,
for the sake of his works.
23 Before the present age he founded me,
in the beginning.

24 Before he made the earth and before he made the depths,
before he brought forth the springs of the waters,
25 before the mountains were established
and before all the hills, he begets me.
26 The Lord made countries and uninhabited spaces
and the habitable heights of that beneath the sky.
27 When he prepared the sky, I was present with him,
and when he marked out his own throne on the winds.
28 When he made strong the clouds above
and when he made secure the springs beneath the sky,
29 when he made strong the foundations of the earth,
30 I was beside him, fitting together;
it is I who was the one in whom he took delight.
And each day I was glad in his presence at every moment,

31 when he rejoiced after he had completed the world
and rejoiced among the sons of men.
Pr 8:22–31.

Notice it says before the present age He founded me. Then He says before the hills He begets Me. God begot His Son prior to the creation. Then He says I was beside Him and was glad in His presence. Wisdom says I was beside Him fitting together. The Father spoke and the Son created. Scripture says all things were made through the Son. In this passage He is beside God fitting things together. However, take notice to verse 30. He says, "it is I who was the one in whom He took delight." Who was the one that God delight in?

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Lk 3:22.

The word translated "I am well pleased" also means to delight in, but it's in the wrong tense. It's not in the present tense as our English Bibles read. It's in the Greek past tense. It should read, Thou art my beloved Son in whom I was well pleased or in whom I delighted. God said He delight in His Son. In Proverbs 8:30 It's Wisdom speaking and He says He was the one that God delighted in. Wisdom is the Son of God. That's why Paul said if the rulers of this age had known the Wisdom of God they would not have killed the Lord. Proverbs 8 says that God begat Wisdom. Wisdom, the only begotten Son.

I could go on, but really, if this isn't enough evidence to make anyone considered the doctrine I don't know that any amount would suffice.

The mystery that Paul spoke of was concerning the New Covenant in Christ, that Christ came to save the Gentiles also, not just the Jews.

The Jews believed only a Jew could be saved, the Gentiles were dogs and cursed by God.

The Jews were shocked and couldn't believe what they were seeing when the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles.

That was the mystery kept from the Jews all that time, that God has accepted the Gentiles for salvation.

You're very confused, Butch, you really don't know what you're talking about. The more you talk the more you show how confused you really are.
 
The mystery that Paul spoke of was concerning the New Covenant in Christ, that Christ came to save the Gentiles also, not just the Jews.

The Jews believed only a Jew could be saved, the Gentiles were dogs and cursed by God.

The Jews were shocked and couldn't believe what they were seeing when the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles.

That was the mystery kept from the Jews all that time, that God has accepted the Gentiles for salvation.

You're very confused, Butch, you really don't know what you're talking about. The more you talk the more you show how confused you really are.

Mystery in Paul’s epistles mean “a secret”.
The disciples didn’t even know why the Messiah came until after the fact.
For three years Christ taught Paul personally in the desert and revealed the mysteries to him.
One of which was the rapture of the church.
Old Testament writers,nor the disciples had the faintest hint of the church age. They thought tribulation would start as soon as Christ died on the cross.
 
One thing I seriously cannot grasp, is why, in light of all of the evidence, you guys continue to argue for this doctrine. I'm serious, what is it that drives you to continue to argue for it? The evidence against it is overwhelming.

This doctrine wasn't accepted by the church until the fifth century. It was around 450 Ad. That's 350 years after the last apostle. That means for the first 400 years of Christianity Christians didn't know this doctrine. And, according to the Athanasian Creed they couldn't be saved. So, according to the Athanasian creed the first 400 years of Christians we're saved. That would include the apostles.
We have the Nicene Creed of 325 and 386. Neither of which say anything about one God in three persons. They actually counter the doctrine saying that God came out of God and that the Son was begotten.
The doctrine isn't found in Scripture.
The doctrine is refuted all through Scripture. Paul said there is one God, the Father. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. John and Paul both said no one has seen God. Paul said no one can see God . Paul said God is invisible. People have seen Jesus.
Jesus said that the Comforter and Spirit of Truth is figurative language about the Father.
Luke tells us that the Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest.
Luke also records the angel that went to Mary and told her the Holy Spirit would come upon her and she would conceive. That means that the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus. So, either the Holy is the Father, or the Father is not the Father or Jesus. If the Holy Spirit is a third person then He is the father of Jesus.
Jesus said no knows the Son but the Father and no one knows the Father but the Son and whoever the Son reveals Him to. So, how is it that we have three persons that are equally God in a Godhead and the third person of the Godhead doesn't even know the other two? How is that possible?
One being called God consisting of 3 persons is a logical contradiction.
When Paul gives his greetings in his letters to the churches he says things akin to, grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. He doesn't include the Holy Spirit. He's giving greetings to the Chruch from the Godhead and he doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. If we had three persons we would expect Paul to say something akin to, grace to you and peace from God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. But it's not there.
Paul often speaks of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. God can't have a God. God can't be His own Son. God can't be His own Father.
Different accounts of the same event conflate the Father and the Holy Spirit.
As I pointed out today, the doctrine collapses in on itself into a catch 22. The doctrine says that there is one God in three persons, the Father, Son, and Spirit. Each is fully God. So, Jesus is fully God, Does God lie? No. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. So Jesus said someone else is God. So, the Trinitarian who holds that Jesus is God is faced with a conundrum. If they hold to the Trinity doctrine they have to disbelieve what Jesus said. They have to disbelieve God. If they are correct in their disbelief of what He said, they have to hold that He is wrong or lying. In either case he would not be God. On the other hand, if they believe Jesus, then they have to acknowledge that He is not God. Either way the Trintiy doctrine collapses.
Paul said that Jesus is the first born of creation.
Paul said in Hebrews that Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are. James said God cannot be tempted with sin. It can't be both.
Paul calls Jesus the Wisdom of God and proverbs 8 tells us that God begat Wisdom.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Co 2:6–8.

Paul says we speak the Wisdom of God in a mystery. What was the mystery?

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Eph 3:1–5.

Here Paul speaks of the mystery of Christ that was hidden and only revealed in the latter days. Paul said he received it by Revelation. In 1 Cor. he said he was speaking of the hidden Wisdom that God ordained before the world. Then speaking of that Wisdom he says had they known it they wouldn't have crucified the Lord or Glory. That's Jesus. they didn't know God's Wisdom, Jesus. if they had they wouldn't have crucified Him. Proverbs 8 says that God begat Wisdom.

Proverbs 8 Septuagint

22 The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways,
for the sake of his works.
23 Before the present age he founded me,
in the beginning.

24 Before he made the earth and before he made the depths,
before he brought forth the springs of the waters,
25 before the mountains were established
and before all the hills, he begets me.
26 The Lord made countries and uninhabited spaces
and the habitable heights of that beneath the sky.
27 When he prepared the sky, I was present with him,
and when he marked out his own throne on the winds.
28 When he made strong the clouds above
and when he made secure the springs beneath the sky,
29 when he made strong the foundations of the earth,
30 I was beside him, fitting together;
it is I who was the one in whom he took delight.
And each day I was glad in his presence at every moment,

31 when he rejoiced after he had completed the world
and rejoiced among the sons of men.
Pr 8:22–31.

Notice it says before the present age He founded me. Then He says before the hills He begets Me. God begot His Son prior to the creation. Then He says I was beside Him and was glad in His presence. Wisdom says I was beside Him fitting together. The Father spoke and the Son created. Scripture says all things were made through the Son. In this passage He is beside God fitting things together. However, take notice to verse 30. He says, "it is I who was the one in whom He took delight." Who was the one that God delight in?

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Lk 3:22.

The word translated "I am well pleased" also means to delight in, but it's in the wrong tense. It's not in the present tense as our English Bibles read. It's in the Greek past tense. It should read, Thou art my beloved Son in whom I was well pleased or in whom I delighted. God said He delight in His Son. In Proverbs 8:30 It's Wisdom speaking and He says He was the one that God delighted in. Wisdom is the Son of God. That's why Paul said if the rulers of this age had known the Wisdom of God they would not have killed the Lord. Proverbs 8 says that God begat Wisdom. Wisdom, the only begotten Son.

I could go on, but really, if this isn't enough evidence to make anyone considered the doctrine I don't know that any amount would suffice.

Revelation 5
Who’s hand did Christ take the book from? His own???
 
Be careful my friend. That's the thinking that leaves us open to error. A person can argue anything is true if we allow them a false premise. When we say God cannot be understood, people can make just about any claim they want and it can't be denied. If we say God can't be understood then someone can claim God is a chocolate bar and say prove me wrong. To which you have no legitimate response. Why, because God can't be understood. If we can't understand God then we can't know that He isn't a chocolate bar.

In all seriousness, it's been my experience that Christians, for the most part, don't think through the implications of their doctrines. If they did, I believe the Christian faith would very different than it is. People Keep saying man can't understand God and the Trinity is a doctrine that we just can't understand. That's the argument. The problem is, The Trinity doctrine was formed by men, who supposedly can't understand God and the Trinity doctrine. Riddle me this, If man can't understand the Trinity doctrine, how did he form it? If man can't understand God, how did he form a doctrine that describes God's nature. See, the problem is those who hold the doctrine want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to tell us the nature of God that He is a being of three persons. However, when that is questioned they want duck behind the "we can't understand God" shield. We can't claim to know God's nature when it's convenient and then claim it can't be known when it's not convenient. We have to choose one or the other.
Go back and re-read mine SLOWLY.
God CAN be understood but not completely.
So what if we came up with "Trinity"? It works as an accurate label. We group and label everything. He IS a triune being whether you agree or not.
We know so many things b/c God said it but can we "truly" understand it? For most, no.
I've never suggested He can't be understood at all.
The mortal mind can NOT comprehend God on a large scale. Trying to be like God is what started this mess.
 
One thing I seriously cannot grasp, is why, in light of all of the evidence, you guys continue to argue for this doctrine. I'm serious, what is it that drives you to continue to argue for it? The evidence against it is overwhelming.

This doctrine wasn't accepted by the church until the fifth century. It was around 450 Ad. That's 350 years after the last apostle. That means for the first 400 years of Christianity Christians didn't know this doctrine. And, according to the Athanasian Creed they couldn't be saved. So, according to the Athanasian creed the first 400 years of Christians we're saved. That would include the apostles.
We have the Nicene Creed of 325 and 386. Neither of which say anything about one God in three persons. They actually counter the doctrine saying that God came out of God and that the Son was begotten.
The doctrine isn't found in Scripture.
The doctrine is refuted all through Scripture. Paul said there is one God, the Father. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. John and Paul both said no one has seen God. Paul said no one can see God . Paul said God is invisible. People have seen Jesus.
Jesus said that the Comforter and Spirit of Truth is figurative language about the Father.
Luke tells us that the Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest.
Luke also records the angel that went to Mary and told her the Holy Spirit would come upon her and she would conceive. That means that the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus. So, either the Holy is the Father, or the Father is not the Father or Jesus. If the Holy Spirit is a third person then He is the father of Jesus.
Jesus said no knows the Son but the Father and no one knows the Father but the Son and whoever the Son reveals Him to. So, how is it that we have three persons that are equally God in a Godhead and the third person of the Godhead doesn't even know the other two? How is that possible?
One being called God consisting of 3 persons is a logical contradiction.
When Paul gives his greetings in his letters to the churches he says things akin to, grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. He doesn't include the Holy Spirit. He's giving greetings to the Chruch from the Godhead and he doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. If we had three persons we would expect Paul to say something akin to, grace to you and peace from God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. But it's not there.
Paul often speaks of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. God can't have a God. God can't be His own Son. God can't be His own Father.
Different accounts of the same event conflate the Father and the Holy Spirit.
As I pointed out today, the doctrine collapses in on itself into a catch 22. The doctrine says that there is one God in three persons, the Father, Son, and Spirit. Each is fully God. So, Jesus is fully God, Does God lie? No. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. So Jesus said someone else is God. So, the Trinitarian who holds that Jesus is God is faced with a conundrum. If they hold to the Trinity doctrine they have to disbelieve what Jesus said. They have to disbelieve God. If they are correct in their disbelief of what He said, they have to hold that He is wrong or lying. In either case he would not be God. On the other hand, if they believe Jesus, then they have to acknowledge that He is not God. Either way the Trintiy doctrine collapses.
Paul said that Jesus is the first born of creation.
Paul said in Hebrews that Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are. James said God cannot be tempted with sin. It can't be both.
Paul calls Jesus the Wisdom of God and proverbs 8 tells us that God begat Wisdom.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Co 2:6–8.

Paul says we speak the Wisdom of God in a mystery. What was the mystery?

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Eph 3:1–5.

Here Paul speaks of the mystery of Christ that was hidden and only revealed in the latter days. Paul said he received it by Revelation. In 1 Cor. he said he was speaking of the hidden Wisdom that God ordained before the world. Then speaking of that Wisdom he says had they known it they wouldn't have crucified the Lord or Glory. That's Jesus. they didn't know God's Wisdom, Jesus. if they had they wouldn't have crucified Him. Proverbs 8 says that God begat Wisdom.

Proverbs 8 Septuagint

22 The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways,
for the sake of his works.
23 Before the present age he founded me,
in the beginning.

24 Before he made the earth and before he made the depths,
before he brought forth the springs of the waters,
25 before the mountains were established
and before all the hills, he begets me.
26 The Lord made countries and uninhabited spaces
and the habitable heights of that beneath the sky.
27 When he prepared the sky, I was present with him,
and when he marked out his own throne on the winds.
28 When he made strong the clouds above
and when he made secure the springs beneath the sky,
29 when he made strong the foundations of the earth,
30 I was beside him, fitting together;
it is I who was the one in whom he took delight.
And each day I was glad in his presence at every moment,

31 when he rejoiced after he had completed the world
and rejoiced among the sons of men.
Pr 8:22–31.

Notice it says before the present age He founded me. Then He says before the hills He begets Me. God begot His Son prior to the creation. Then He says I was beside Him and was glad in His presence. Wisdom says I was beside Him fitting together. The Father spoke and the Son created. Scripture says all things were made through the Son. In this passage He is beside God fitting things together. However, take notice to verse 30. He says, "it is I who was the one in whom He took delight." Who was the one that God delight in?

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Lk 3:22.

The word translated "I am well pleased" also means to delight in, but it's in the wrong tense. It's not in the present tense as our English Bibles read. It's in the Greek past tense. It should read, Thou art my beloved Son in whom I was well pleased or in whom I delighted. God said He delight in His Son. In Proverbs 8:30 It's Wisdom speaking and He says He was the one that God delighted in. Wisdom is the Son of God. That's why Paul said if the rulers of this age had known the Wisdom of God they would not have killed the Lord. Proverbs 8 says that God begat Wisdom. Wisdom, the only begotten Son.

I could go on, but really, if this isn't enough evidence to make anyone considered the doctrine I don't know that any amount would suffice.

Now you believe Christ was created,not the creator?
That God created him as he did the angels?
 
It's obvious he doesn't understand most of what he's saying.

I think he just enjoys arguing.
That's funny. If I didn't know what I was talking about surely someone in this discussion could refute what I've said.

I've said before, quite a few times, whenever Scripture runs up against church doctrine, church doctrine always wins. Christians invariably choose to believe church doctrine over Scripture.
 
That's funny. If I didn't know what I was talking about surely someone in this discussion could refute what I've said.

I've said before, quite a few times, whenever Scripture runs up against church doctrine, church doctrine always wins. Christians invariably choose to believe church doctrine over Scripture.
No,we give you sound biblical foundations. You choose to believe your own interpretation rather than the scriptures
 
That's funny. If I didn't know what I was talking about surely someone in this discussion could refute what I've said.

I've said before, quite a few times, whenever Scripture runs up against church doctrine, church doctrine always wins. Christians invariably choose to believe church doctrine over Scripture.

I think some have refuted what you have said.

Each denomination has it's own church doctrine. It's up to you to find the truth.

Here's how you can do that.

Proverbs 1:23
"Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."
 
The mystery that Paul spoke of was concerning the New Covenant in Christ, that Christ came to save the Gentiles also, not just the Jews.

The Jews believed only a Jew could be saved, the Gentiles were dogs and cursed by God.

The Jews were shocked and couldn't believe what they were seeing when the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles.

That was the mystery kept from the Jews all that time, that God has accepted the Gentiles for salvation.

You're very confused, Butch, you really don't know what you're talking about. The more you talk the more you show how confused you really are.
I gave you the Scriptures where Paul equates the Wisdom of God with the Lord of Glory.

I don't know what I'm talking about yet you didn't answer the question and you didn't address a single point against your position. I'm finding it hard to take you seriously my friend. You say I just want to argue. On the other hand you just keep ignoring the evidence against your position and telling me I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about. If you really believe that then why are you wasting your time addressing my posts?
 
No,we give you sound biblical foundations. You choose to believe your own interpretation rather than the scriptures
You guys keep saying that. However, your opinions aren't sound Biblical foundations.

I've been asking from the beginning for someone to show where Scripture teaches that there is one God in three persons. Here we are a hundred posts later and I'm still asking for the evidence. If it's there post it. Posting a passage of Scripture that refers to Jesus as God doesn't prove there is a God who consists of three persons.

Not to mention no one has addressed the multitude of problems with your position.
 
I gave you the Scriptures where Paul equates the Wisdom of God with the Lord of Glory.

I don't know what I'm talking about yet you didn't answer the question and you didn't address a single point against your position. I'm finding it hard to take you seriously my friend. You say I just want to argue. On the other hand you just keep ignoring the evidence against your position and telling me I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about. If you really believe that then why are you wasting your time addressing my posts?

Well, if you really want me to start pointing out those things in your posts, I'll accommodate you.

I'm kinda lazy now but I can get fired up.
 
I think some have refuted what you have said.

Each denomination has it's own church doctrine. It's up to you to find the truth.

Here's how you can do that.

Proverbs 1:23
"Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."
Come on Charlie, if you're not going to be serious I'll just move on. The only who has really tried to address the subject is Nick.

Saying, you're wrong, all the time without evidence just weakens your case
 
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