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What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

Stop using the bible as a defence against your refusal of it's teachings!

Is that really what I have done? If I was not led by the Holy Spirit, you might be correct. If you are not being led by the Holy Spirit, you may also be correct:

"LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23
 
let God have his glory then, be understanding he makes clear the second coming and the gathering of the saints to him, will not happen until the man of sin comes and sits in God's place; rules over the kings of the earth and deceives the whole of mankind and kills the saints and tries to deceive them also.
 
the coming.—Literally, for the sake of the coming, just as in English we adjure persons to do a thing “for God’s sake.” It is a stronger form of adjuration than the simple “by,” inasmuch as it implies that the thing or person adjured by will suffer if the action be left unperformed. The Coming of Christ and the meeting with the beloved dead would not be so bright, so perfect, perhaps so soon, if the Thessalonians allowed themselves to be misled with regard to it.

Our gathering together.—The peculiar Greek word is the same as that used in Hebrews 10:25 of the assembling to the Lord’s Supper, and nowhere else, so that some have interpreted it in the same sense here. In verb form it is thus used in 1Thessalonians 4:17. The close connection between the two “gatherings together” may be seen in 1Corinthians 11:26. The “our” means the meeting of the dead and the quick together.


2 Thessalonians 2:1. ἐπισυν., a term whose verb was already in use for the muster of saints to the messianic reign.—σαλ. “get unsettled”. Epictetus uses ἀποσαλεύεσθαι for the unsettling of the mind by sophistries (3:25), and the nearest equivalent for νοῦς here is our “mind”. This mental agitation (aor.) results in θροεῖσθαι = nervous fear (Wrede, 48 f.) in prospect of the imminent end.

adds and our gathering together unto Him, remembering what he has written in 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 1 Thessalonians 5:10 concerning the reunion of the living with departed saints at Christ’s coming. The corresponding verb appears in the promise of Jesus (Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27): “He shall gather togetherHis elect from the four winds;” comp. the echoes of our Lord’s sayings on the Last Things noted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 to 1 Thessalonians 5:11.


Some of their teachers declared that “the day of the Lord was already come;” and it was reported that Paul himself had written to this effect (2 Thessalonians 2:2). The Church was in danger of falling into mischievous deception (2 Thessalonians 2:3). That they may “prove the prophesyings” addressed to them on this subject (1 Thessalonians 5:20-21), the Apostle gives them a token or omen of the Second Coming, which indeed he had already supplied in his previous ministry (2 Thessalonians 2:5). He foresees that before Christ’s return in judgement there must be a supreme manifestation of evil (2 Thessalonians 2:3




our gathering together unto him—the consummating or final gathering together of the saints to Him at His coming, as announced, Mt 24:31; 1Th 4:17. The Greek noun is nowhere else found except in Heb 10:25, said of the assembling together of believers for congregational worship. Our instinctive fears of the judgment are dispelled by the thought of being gathered together UNTO Him ("even as the hen gathereth her chickens under her wings"), which ensures our safety.2 Thessalonians 2:1 Paul warneth the Thessalonians against the groundless

surmise that the day of Christ was near at hand,

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 showing that it would be preceded by a great apostacy,

and that the man of sin would be first revealed, and

by his wicked impostures draw many into perdition.


7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Need I go farther. This whole thing is a rave, not a teaching. It's composed of partial verses and disjointed thoughts, as though the author is smoking banana peels.

Hebrews 10:25 (CJB)
25 not neglecting our own congregational meetings, as some have made a practice of doing, but, rather, encouraging each other.

And let us do this all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Talks about meeting with other believers



1 Thessalonians 4:17 (CJB)
17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

Talks about the catching up of the bride..Meeting the Lord in the air. Seems clear right? Rapture not Second Coming.



1 Corinthians 11:26(CJB)
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord, until he comes.

Talks about communion. Covenant meal.


2 Thessalonians 2:1-3(CJB)
2 But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to meet him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way.

For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.


Talks of Christians turning their backs on the faith and going into deception. Or back to the World. And Don't do it!



1 Thessalonians 5:8-12 (CJB)
8 But since we belong to the day, let us stay sober, putting on trust and love as a breastplate and the hope of being delivered as a helmet.a]">[a] 9 For God has not intended that we should experience his fury, but that we should gain deliverance through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, 10 who died on our behalf so that whether we are alive or dead, we may live along with him. 11 Therefore, encourage each other, and build each other up — just as you are doing.

12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are working hard among you, those who are guiding you in the Lord and confronting you in order to help you change.

Talks about our behavior so we can be ready. Look at what I mean.



Matthew 24:31 (CJB)
31 He will send out his angels with a great shofar;a]">[a] and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Talks about the Second Coming. Not the rapture




1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 (CJB)
13 Now, brothers, we want you to know the truth about those who have died; otherwise, you might become sad the way other people 14 do who have nothing to hope for. For since we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, we also believe that in the same way God, through Yeshua, will take with him those who have died. 15 When we say this, we base it on the Lord’s own word: we who remain alive when the Lord comes will certainly not take precedence over those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise; 17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So encourage each other with these words.

5 But you have no need to have anything written to you, brothers, about the times and dates when this will happen; 2 because you yourselves well know that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When people are saying, “Everything is so peaceful and secure,” then destruction will suddenly come upon them, the way labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there is no way they will escape.

4 But you, brothers, are not in the dark, so that the Day should take you by surprise like a thief; 5 for you are all people who belong to the light, who belong to the day. We don’t belong to the night or to darkness, 6 so let’s not be asleep, like the rest are; on the contrary, let us stay alert and sober. 7 People who sleep, sleep at night; and people who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us stay sober, putting on trust and love as a breastplate and the hope of being delivered as a helmet.a]">[a] 9 For God has not intended that we should experience his fury, but that we should gain deliverance through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, 10 who died on our behalf so that whether we are alive or dead, we may live along with him. 11 Therefore, encourage each other, and build each other up — just as you are doing.


This is talking of the Rapture not the second coming!! Can't you see the difference. In the Rapture we meet Jesus IN THE AIR. At the second Coming JESUS' FEET TOUCH THE GROUND.




2 Thessalonians 2:2 (CJB)
2 not to be easily shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come.

An incomplete sentence (verse) therefore and incomplete thought..

Listening I'm very glad to see that you cut and pasted this thing. Its not even worth reading. Its not anywhere near being right.
 
I posted the commentaries for your benefit
You are again refusing the correction of the church on this matter which is quickly understood
If only by the word of God itself.
That the return of Christ and our gathering together unto him
Which is obviously not talking of going to church but the rapture
Will not occur until after the man of sin is revealed.
Who will say he is God on earth; take the titles of God and rule the kings of the earth and kill the saints.
The word of God is very very clear on this matter.


ITS NOT ABOUT YOU...ITS ABOUT THE KING!



It is also about accepting the word of God and so the King, The teacher, Jesus.
 
The roman catholic origins of the false rapture teaching


Those who are the deceivers, who use the name “Christian” in order to get people’s trust, often use very subtle means of introducing the lies so that the lies are barely noticed by those who are lacking in discernment. I have noticed one method they use is to quote scripture, but not actually teach what the scripture says"
Sue J Love.

This quote from Sue is very apt for those who refuse what the scripture clearly teaches on this matter of the coming of Jesus and our being gathered together with him.
For false teachers are NOT teaching what the scriptures teach and are instead refusing them and making up false doctrines that directly contradict the scriptures concerning this matter.

Scripture makes clear that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together to him, will NOT occur UNTIL AFTER the man of sin is revealed, the man who kills the saints as is revealed in the book of Revelation which AGAIN describes this man of sin.
 
Yes, it is great and very true including the first part. We, all of us believe we are right or we would change in order to correct our errors, our own blind spots. The exception to this is when a person really does hear God's voice even as it applies to his own self.

When we are unwilling to hear something that opposes what we believe, we may well be limiting God and stunting our own growth in the things of God:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

This verse in Proverbs, was posted before two others , began to mock, and make fun WHY?
Cause the Lord does know men.

And if anyone look at the verse I
posted in Matthew, Mark , and Luke , you could see this same
spirit still at work.
So you posted Proverbs, not knowing the true reason, maybe the Lord only knew.
So thanks brother
 
It's so fitting, I think it needs a neon sign. The Almighty says it best.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone have any verses that show that Revelation is not wrote in chronological order?

It seems to me it is, and I really want to know because there is an enormous number of people that overlap and skip and this and that... and yet, I never heard the reason they done any of it... (or at least any that made sense yet)

Verses that show it is in chronological order are also welcomed. I want to know how it's meant to be read. And I want to know if I'm missing something and just can't find it.

Are you referring to Ceptor as your mocker?
because if you are, he seemed to think the proverb was against you and thanked Amadeus for posting it.
 
This is the same day , it takes place on the same day.
The catching away, the resurrection, the last trump, when the son of man is revealed , the wrath, the gathering , the coming , when the dead in Christ shall rise ( even the ones killed that didn't take the mark, or his name, or worship the beast, during the tribulation.

These all will live and reign with Christ that died for his name,
during the tribulation.
They are in the first resurrection, all at the same time.
There is no secret rapture , where Christ will not be revealed to the whole world, at his coming.
He even said don't let no man receive you that it would be like lighting when he returns, that everyone will see him.
Why would he even say let no man deceive us, if we was to be rapture 7 years before his coming.


And Here is the other mocker ?

It is very funny to me that ceptor mocked you with the high priest pic
When in fact you are defying the ceptor of the very man of sin the pope, the very man who Claims to be the great high priest and mocks the title in such Arrogant blasphemy, jesus by doing so , and who invented the false doctrine of rapture, which lies saying the rapture will be coming before the man of sin the pope is revealed!!!!
 
Let us remember the pope is merely many men, all men who teach falsehoods should be shown to do so, they should not be tolerated, and in the Spirit of True love, the wicked filthy lying mouths Of such men should not be listened to.


And the greatest of these is love....... Love always rejoices with and in the truth.
Reserve your kindness to the victims of the serpents deceptions and rebuke that enemies lies!
Crush his voice on the earth which comes in the form of false teachings.
The fruit of them and him, 100 million saints killed.
 
I posted the commentaries for your benefit
You are again refusing the correction of the church on this matter which is quickly understood
If only by the word of God itself.
That the return of Christ and our gathering together unto him
Which is obviously not talking of going to church but the rapture
Will not occur until after the man of sin is revealed.
Who will say he is God on earth; take the titles of God and rule the kings of the earth and kill the saints.
The word of God is very very clear on this matter.


ITS NOT ABOUT YOU...ITS ABOUT THE KING!



It is also about accepting the word of God and so the King, The teacher, Jesus.

I may be refusing the correction of your church but I fully accept the Truth of Gods Word. What church are you talking about anyway? If what you shared is from a church you should find another one.
 
I may be refusing the correction of your church but I fully accept the Truth of Gods Word. What church are you talking about anyway? If what you shared is from a church you should find another one.
Not before the man of sin is revealed
Is what the church and the word of God teach.
You refuse to listen to both.
There is only one church.
 
I may be refusing the correction of your church but I fully accept the Truth of Gods Word. What church are you talking about anyway? If what you shared is from a church you should find another one.
Not before the man of sin is revealed Will the rapture occur
Is what the church and the word of God teach.
You refuse to listen to both.
There is only one church.
Your arrogance is obvious.
 
I may be refusing the correction of your church but I fully accept the Truth of Gods Word. What church are you talking about anyway? If what you shared is from a church you should find another one.
The word of God shall be your judge then.
 
Is that really what I have done? If I was not led by the Holy Spirit, you might be correct. If you are not being led by the Holy Spirit, you may also be correct:

"LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23
The scripture says

That day will not come until the man of sin be revealed.
Now you argue what day it means
But any day you can think it means shall not occur until that man of sin is revealed.
So now you can know
That day will not come until the man of sin be revealed.
And we know its the pope and his coming is the man of sin revealed.

Only if led by the Holy Spirit would i be correct.


Now you are free to ignore this truth as you cannot contradict it, so may as well choose to ignore it, As is the practice of those who refuse the truth.
 
The scripture says

That day will not come until the man of sin be revealed.
Now you argue what day it means
But any day you can think it means shall not occur until that man of sin is revealed.
You may say The day is the secret rapture
Or you may say the Day is the coming of christ
So now you can know
That day will not come until the man of sin be revealed.
And we know its the pope and his coming is the man of sin revealed.

Only if led by the Holy Spirit would i be correct.


Now you are free to ignore this truth as you cannot contradict it, so may as well choose to ignore it, As is the practice of those who refuse the truth.
 

Is that really what I have done? If I was not led by the Holy Spirit, you might be correct. If you are not being led by the Holy Spirit, you may also be correct:

"LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23


Back to the subject at hand

The scripture says

That day will not come until the man of sin be revealed.
Now you argue what day it means
But any day you can think In context of what day it may be, shall not occur until that man of sin is revealed.
So You may say its the day of the secret rapture, Which is the very fear that gave st paul cause to have to Write his letter to allay that fear of missing such a day.
Or You may say its the day of christ coming to give new bodies to the church and destroy the man of sin in the process.

So now you can know
That day will not come until the man of sin be revealed.
And we know its the pope and his coming is the man of sin revealed.

Only if led by the Holy Spirit would i be correct.


Now you are free to ignore this truth as you cannot contradict it, so may as well choose to ignore it, As is the practice of those who refuse the truth.
 
Scriptures please!

I have an opinion, but feel more so that I need to read up on it. So help me out brother.







Here is you proof that Tribulation is not wrath
And that the church goes through tribulation is persecuted under beast
And the rapture does not occur before the man of sin is revealed.




The Two Witnesses

1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4These witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.a 5If anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouths and devours their enemies. In this way, anyone who wants to harm them must be killed. 6These witnesses have power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall during the days of their prophecy, and power to turn the waters into blood, and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish.

The Witnesses Killed and Raised

7When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. 9For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them.

11But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet, and great fear came over those who saw them. 12And the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched them.

13And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand were killed in the quake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe has passed. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
 
This is i believe the exact same story as the two witnesses



The Woman and the Dragon

1And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and crying out in the pain and agony of giving birth.

3Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as He was born.

5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter;a and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6The woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for one thousand two hundred sixty days.

The War in Heaven

7Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—the ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying:

“Now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God,

and the authority of His Christ.

For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down,

he who accuses them day and night before our God.

11They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

and they did not love their lives

so as to shy away from death.

12Therefore rejoice, O heavens,

and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea;

with great fury the devil has come down to you,

knowing he has only a short time.”

The Woman Persecuted

13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

15Then from the mouth of the serpent spewed water like a river to overtake the woman and sweep her away in the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth to swallow up the river that had poured from the dragon’s mouth. 17And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make to war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.b


a 5 Psalm 2:9
b 17 RP and TR And I stood on the sand of the sea. Some texts number this sentence as verse 18, and others include it with 13:1.
 
I also believe this includes the two witnesses



7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
 
The two witnesses are also still talked about in these passages also, i believe.



6Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the One who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and the springs of waters.”

8Then a second angel followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great , who has made all the Gentiles to drink the wine of the passion of her immorality.”

9And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”
 
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