@Butch5, I will say you present a strong argument for your belief. I have never discussed to this extent with a person who believes in postponed annihilationism.
My statement above is a bit too harsh, apologies. What causes me to grind my teeth in discussion with you is that you do not concede to the fact that ''Accept me or die'' is evidence of
zero free will.
I googled a bit and find this, if you wouldn't mind giving it a stab. I think after you reply to this I will summarize our beliefs and the reasons for our disagreements over these last few ''gasp'' pages. Once I present that you will see the gaps I feel you still need to fill.
(4) Postponed Annihilationism View: it teaches that unbelievers will be judged and then put out of existence. This view is embraced by the majority of Annihilationists.
This heretical view:
(1) makes nonsense of the endless judgment of God, as what is just about a judgment without a full payment for sins committed (Prov 11:21; Isa 13:11);
(2) the Bible clearly teaches about degrees of punishment, but Annihilationism dismisses these (Matt 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb 10:29; Rev 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.); and
(3) sinners continue to sin even in Hell (Rom 8:7-8; Rev 21:8; 22:14-15), so Hell must consist of perpetual punishment, etc.
I didn't find anything harsh. No apologies necessary.
I don't accept it because I see a choice there. One has the choice to accept the marriage or die. If one doesn't like the options, that doesn't mean there is no choice. The definition of free will is the ability to choose between two or more options without coercion. In your statement, "marry me or die" one has a choice between those two options unless God is forcing them to choose one option and not the other. But, I reject the premise that God is saying, marry me or die. I see God saying to someone that they're going to die. However, they don't have to if they'd just take His hand.
Thanks, I'm glad you appreciate the arguments. I didn't really know that there were sub groups within annihilation. I don't know who this is but I would go back to what I said about presuppositions. In his remarks, Number 1 presupposes "endless judgment". He then goes on to reference a few passages. However, he's reading those passages with a presupposed "endless judgment" point of view. I looked at each of these passages and none of them mentions hell. Rev. 21:8 talks about people being thrown into the Lake of Fire, but it says nothing about eternal burning. What it does say is, 'this is the second death'. So, being cast into the Lake of Fire is the second death. What are the wages of sin? Death.
His 2nd point is that annihilationism dismisses degrees of judgment. It doesn't. Firstly, to punish someone they need to be alive. This tells us that this isn't referring to hell. The whole purpose of raising the wicked for the dead is judgment. The wicked that are judged are alive, they've been raised from the dead. Jesus said some will be raised to life and some to condemnation. So, these judgment passages aren't talking about hell, these people are alive.
His third point is that sinners continue to sin in hell. Obviously that can't be, dead people can't do anything, they can't even think, how could they sin? We even have the apostle Paul's words on this.
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?1
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.1
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
(Rom. 6:3-8 KJV)
Here Paul is comparing being crucified with Christ and putting off the old man, or the our old way of life. He says,
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
As an example he uses the fact that the dead cannot sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
For his second point on point 3 he concludes that hell must be perpetual punishment. However, he's based that on the false premise that sinners continue to sin in hell. This is what I was talking about in an earlier post when we start making assumptions from what we read, rather than taking what is explicitly stated, it can lead to other false doctrines. I gave the example of the "Immortal Soul" doctrine leading to the doctrine of "Eternal Conscious Torment". If he hadn't started with the presupposition that sinner continue to sin in hell, he wouldn't have concluded that hell must be a place of perpetual punishment.
His points here really aren't valid. They're easily debunked. Even the passages he posted don't, for the most part, address what his claim is. The one passage that actually does touch on the subject is Rev 21:8 which says the Lake of Fire is the second death. His claim is that it's perpetual punishment. God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Paul said, "the wages of sin is death". Isaiah speaking of Christ's death for sin said,
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.1
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
(Isa. 53:10-12 KJV)
Christ's soul was a sacrifice for sin. Christ's sacrifice for sin was the death of His soul. Peter said,
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:1
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:1
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.1 (1 Pet. 2:21-24 KJV)
Peter said that Christ bore our sins in His body. We see all through Scripture that the wages of sin is physical death, It's the only death. God told Adam the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die. He then explained that death, "for dust thou art and unto dust thou shall return". That's a physical death. Nowhere in Scripture do we find God telling people that the soul that sins will suffer eternal torment.
The author argues that hell is perpetual torment. Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. He was quoting from Isaiah 66.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:24 KJV)
What is burning here? Corpses. It's dead bodies that are burning. Again we see those who opposed God are dead. But, there is more, this place doesn't burn forever. Jeremiah prophesies of a time when this place will once again be made holy to the Lord.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:38-40 KJV)
I could keep going, but this post is getting unwieldy. In the end I think it really comes down to presuppositions. I used to hold most of the predominant "Christian" doctrines. However, after making a conscious effort to set aside my presuppositions and just look at what the Scriptures say at face value It became abundantly clear to me that today's Christianity is a far cry from what Jesus and the apostles taught.
