KingJ
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Apples and oranges. Scripture does not change. Science advances.
What to expect in Hell
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Butch5
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You're the one who brought what's been taught for "eons" not me.
Sorry to point this out Butch, but scripture has change thousands
of times.
It's not easy to interpret (Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek) in to English.
For instance my KJ Bible says, The Love of money is the root of ALL evil
Which is obviously wrong, other Bibles have replaced the ALL.
I also believe the word Hell is wrongly interpreted, it is being slowly
taken out of most Bibles.
With Love Wnl
of times.
It's not easy to interpret (Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek) in to English.
For instance my KJ Bible says, The Love of money is the root of ALL evil
Which is obviously wrong, other Bibles have replaced the ALL.
I also believe the word Hell is wrongly interpreted, it is being slowly
taken out of most Bibles.
With Love Wnl
KingJ
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Scripture that does not change has been interpreted as I currently believe it, for eons.
You cannot use science as an example of false teaching of scripture. Science advances. What we think we know today, may embarrass us in ten years time.
KingJ
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There are a lot of changes in the last decade or so, agreed. We living in the last days.
My point is that for eons, Protestants and Catholics have believed in a human being, being three parts. Those in Hades being alive and those that die in Christ going to be with Christ.
A very small percentage of believers believe death is actually literally death.
Butch5
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The keyword is interpreted. Wrongly I might add. It doesn't matter how long something has been taught or how widely it's accepted. If it's wrong, it's wrong. And yes I can use science as an example. Wrong teaching is wrong teaching no matter what the subject. The point is that many people believe wrong teaching as we can see with the case of Evolution. The Catholic Church has been teaching purgatory for over a thousand years that doesn't make it right. The Reformers have been teaching that people are chosen to be saved before creation, for about 500 year, that doesn't make it right. One of the reasons these doctrines just keep getting propagated is just like you said, It's been taught for eons and no one questions it. Just go with flow. Too many are afraid to go against orthodoxy for fear of being labeled a heretic or being an outcast from their friends and family. You are right about one thing. The Scriptures don't change. It doesn't matter what doctrines men create, the Scriptures don't change.
Butch5
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I believe the Gospel and have hope of the Resurrection. If you read Paul's writings, he never gives as hope, a disembodied existence. His hope is always the Resurrection. Look at his words to the Corinthians.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)
Here he is writing about those who had died in Christ. Look at what he says, if there is no resurrection then those who had died in Christ had perished. The only hope he gives for these dead Christians is the resurrection. He doesn't say they're in Heaven, or with Jesus, or with God. He says if there is no resurrection, they're gone.
In Jesus' day the Greek philosophy that was popular was the idea that the flesh was evil and the goal in life was to escape the flesh as a spirit and ascend into the heavens to the ultimate god. Paul preached the Resurrection. This is why the Greeks rejected his preaching . Since they believed they were a spirit trapped in a flesh prison why on earth, having been set free, why would they want to return to the body they saw as a prison?
Sadly this hope has infiltrated the Church and has become the "hope" of many Christians. They have lost the real hope of the Scriptures. The hope of the Scriptures is the promise made to Abraham. That is the true Christian hope.
Butch5
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This last sentence is disheartening. Imagine actually believing the word death means death. If death doesn't mean death, then maybe faith doesn't mean faith. Maybe good doesn't mean good. We could say that for any word in the Scriptures. We can make up anything when we start to define words to fit what we want to believe. The Scriptures say God is good. Do you believe good means good? If so why? If death doesn't mean death then why would good mean good?
It sounds like you have a very liberal interpretation Of Scripture.
And a Christian can have a very broad 'meaning'. For some it is anyone who attends church at Christmas / Easter (Resurrection Day) and Others believe a Christian is a Christ-Follower. Someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.
And, yes, without the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ there Is No hope. Because without salvation -- without the cross -- shed blood of Christ there is No hope for a future in heaven for eternity. Because we are all born physically alive but spiritually dead.
Yes, God Did breathe into Adam the breath of life and man became a living soul / being. A live person.
Well -- Where in Scripture does it say that the spirit returns to God. How about 'this' -- when a believer dies, their spirit / soul is immediate with Jesus Christ. And the spirit of the non-believer goes to Hades which is in Abraham's bosom and the non-believer is waiting in agony / torment until their body is resurrected and stands before God and is sent to the lake of fire and brimstone Forever.
Butch5
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Hi Sue,
Actually, it's an accurate interpretation of Scripture. I would argue that those holding your position are using a liberal interpretation. There is nothing in Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die, or for eternity. Nothing says that the spirit/soul goes to be with Jesus. Nothing that says the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment. Actually, the last passage I quoted from Paul said if there is no resurrection those dead Christians were gone. He didn't say they were with Jesus. The only hope Paul give s for Christians is the Resurrection, nothing else.
Ecc;esiastes 12.
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Eccl. 12:5-7 KJV)
In the Scriptures Hades is the grave and Abraham's bosom is a man's chest. I commented on the passage of Lazarus and the Rich Man here
KingJ
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God has to work with our vocabulary.
Eph 2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions it is by grace you have been saved.
This verse is crystal clear that before we are saved we were dead in our sins. Once saved we are alive with Christ. It speaks to a spiritual death and a spiritual awakening.
There are a few more that come to mind. Namely, 1. Darkness = Loving what is wicked John 3:19. Being in the presence of evildoers. 2. Fire is used in contrast to God's peace in Luke 12:49-51. 3. Hatred is displeased.
I would not say any of these words are figurative. They simply have a different dictionary definition to God. The context in which they are used shows this.
KingJ
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Wrong teaching is wrong teaching. But in the case of science it is more forgivable as it is always advancing. When someone teaches scripture wrongly, we use words like heresy, false teacher and quote scripture for them like Matt 18:6.
All teaching needs to be filtered by us through those scriptures that define God and from our personal relationship with God as we are to ''know'' God Eph 3:18. Abraham was able to sacrifice his child as he ''knew'' God. He knew this extremely loving and righteous God had a very good reason for asking this crazy thing of him.
So let's look closer at your examples. I hate generalizations. We are to properly discern all things 1 Cor 2:15
- Catholics teach Purgatory because they include the Maccabees. They also take literal readings off of quite a few verses in our bible. Just as you do with death.
- The reformers take a literal interpretation of Rom 9 and cherry pick scripture on God's omniscience and omnipotence as the A - Z definition of God.
- I will add one more erroneous teaching. Torture in hell.
There is a lot of error in what many teach, correct. But not all of it is material matters. The moment we taint the character of God we are walking on a dangerous path as our purpose on earth is to be His ambassadors 1 Cor 5:10, 2 Cor 5:20. This is rather easy as there is CRYSTAL CLEAR scripture that defines God 1 John 1:5, Psalm 145:17, Psalm 136:1, John 15:13, 1 John 4:8.
So, we can say with confidence that Calvinists are in error as partiality is wicked and God is not wicked. God is impartial Acts 10:34. We can with confidence say that Purgatory is a trivial disagreement as it does not taint God as wicked. We can with confidence say that torture in hell is error as torture is extremely wicked and God is not wicked 1 John 1:5. We can with confidence say that annihilation is error as it makes a mockery of free will and anything less then true free will is wicked, God is not wicked 1 John 1:5. He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.
Butch5
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These are called metaphors, and yes, they are figures of speech. Paul uses death as a metaphor in other place too. For instance He said, "I die daily". Did Paul literally die every day? Did he die spiritually everyday? The answer is no. He simply meant that he put his wants and needs aside to serve the Lord. He spoke of crucifying the old man. Did he commit suicide? No, again, it was a metaphor for putting his wants and needs aside. He also said,
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. (Rom. 7:9 NKJ)
Did he literally die when he learned the Law? No, it's a metaphor, a figure of speech. When Paul said the Ephesians were dead in their sins it was just a way of saying that there was nothing they could about their sinful condition.
Dead in sins does not mean spiritual death. There is nothing in the Scriptures that speaks of spiritual death. This is just a concept people came up with to try to explain something they either didn't understand or that didn't fit their theology. From what I've seen many try to establish the concept from Genesis. God told Adam that in the day he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil he would die. They then argue that Adam didn't die in that 24 hour day so this must mean something other than physical death. They then impose on the text the idea of a spiritual death. However, in the context there is nothing about a spiritual death. It's simply imposed on the text because people already have this idea that the dead live on. But, if we look back at history we see a much more plausible explanation of this passage that fits with the Scriptures rather than impose a foreign idea onto them. Both the ancient Jewish and early Christian understanding of this passage is that the day God was speaking of was a prophetic day. David said,
4 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night. (Ps. 90:4 NKJ)
Peter said this about the return of Christ.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet. 3:8 NKJ)
Adam live 930 years just short of one prophetic day.
The Book of Jubilee, Patriarchs from Adam to Noah, page 55-56
And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year thereof, Adam died, and all
his sons buried him in the land of his creation, 8 and he was the first to be buried 9 in the earth. 30. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony
p. 56
of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye will die." 1 For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5
2. Thus, then, in the day that they did eat, in the same did they die, and became death’s debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, “There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day.” Now in this same day that they did eat, in that also did they die. But according to the cycle and progress of the days, after which one is termed first, another second, and another third, if anybody seeks diligently to learn upon what day out of the seven it was that Adam died, he will find it by examining the dispensation of the Lord. For by summing up in Himself the whole human race from the beginning to the end, He has also summed up its death. From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Now he died on the same day in which he did eat. For God said, “In that day on which ye shall eat of it, ye shall die by death.” The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit, — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Not only is this much more plausible but we see it's the way the people in Biblical times understood the passage. It's not about spiritual death.
Butch5
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I'll go back to my last post and "interpret". Everything you believe about the Scriptures is an interpretation. The Bible can't speak to you. So, you, like everyone else, only represents the Scriptures correctly, where they understand them correctly. Anything you believe that is wrong that you explain here isn't Scriptural. That goes for all of us. The difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is that what I'm saying is literally stated in the Scriptures. When I say man is dust, that is literally stated in the Scriptures. When you say man consists of three parts you're drawing an inference. The Scriptures don't unequivocally state that man consists of three parts. However, they do unequivocally state that man is dust. Whenever we start drawing inferences we open ourselves up to error, because we're making assumptions. This is where people start to go off track. It gets worse when they start forming doctrines based on inference because they then base other doctrines on these incorrect doctrines. For instance, what leads to the the doctrine of "Eternal Conscious Torment"? It's based on another erroneous doctrine, the "Immortal Soul" Since some people believe that man has an immortal soul, that soul must go somewhere after death. If it's not good it can't go to God so where does it go? The Scriptures say that the wicked will go into the lake of fire. So, then that's where the wicked go. However, because some people believe that the soul is immortal they believe that this immoral soul must be in the Lake of Fire for eternity. Thus one erroneous doctrine leads to another.
This is why critical thinking and proper exegesis is so important. The Bible is crystal clear about what happens the wicked, they are no more. If the Bible says that God is good, which it does, and it says that the wicked shall be no more, and if we hold that God is the ultimate standard, then the concept of annihilation can be incorporated into what is good. That's logical critical thinking. You, me, or the next guy cannot redefine that. If you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and you believe that annihilation is wicked you have an error in your reasoning because the ultimate standard indicates otherwise.
35 May sinners be consumed from the earth, And the wicked be no more. Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD! (Ps. 104:35 NKJ)
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Greetings @KingJ
I would say that it is a Catholic belief brother. There are some protestants that have maintained the RCC traditions, but they are a small percentage.
We have to be right with God, that tells me...
What is scripture being preached today, does it stack up with the true Greek/Hebrew meaning?
Secondly, what is the Church today, the ekklesia, is it correct with scripture and the early Apostolic Church?
It is easy to fall into the 'that's what we do today', that doesn't mean it is right, it is up to us to find out for our own good.
Blessings
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Greetings brother
1 Timothy 6:10-11 (KJV - translation)
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
1 Timothy 6:10 (NKJV - translation)
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced '
1 Timothy 6:10 (NIV2011 - translation)
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
1 Timothy 6:10 (CJB - Complete Jewish Bible translation)
10 For the love of money is a root of all the evils; because of this craving, some people have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves to the heart with many pains.
1 Timothy 6:10 (NJB - New Jerusalem Bible translation)
10 ‘The love of money is the root of all evils' and there are some who, pursuing it, have wandered away from the faith and so given their souls any number of fatal wounds.
It is not money itself that is evil but the love of money (v. 10) which is the root of all the evils.
Or put another way "Loving money leads to all kinds of evils."
Fundraising for religious purposes is not a sin. I trust people's gut reactions about such matters—greed and bad taste are hard to hide.
If we have a love for money, we do not have the love for God we should have. I feel that is the point here brother.
I think this verse sums it up...
Matthew 6:24 (NKJV)
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
Regarding other Bibles, there is only one Bible brother. There are many translations, but only one Bible. Translations can be divided into two categories, the ones that expound The Word, and the other group, like the Good News, like the Message Bible etc, are aimed at being more today speaking, but they often compromise the translated by the way they are worded.
Translations cannot provide the true word meaning but those that expound the word have to be the most accurate.
Bless you and your dear wife brother.
KingJ
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Believing we are body, mind and spirit is both. Believing someone in Christ goes to be with Christ and someone not in Christ goes to Hades is both.
What is Catholic only?
KingJ
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Genesis 2:17—“You Shall Surely Die”
Many old-earth creationists (OEC) try to get around young-earth creationist arguments about there being no death (animal or human) before Adam sinned.
answersingenesis.org
The phrase “you shall surely die” can be literally translated from the Hebrew biblical text as “dying you shall die.” In the Hebrew phrase we find the imperfect form of the Hebrew verb (you shall die) with the infinitive absolute form of the same verb (dying). This presence of the infinitive absolute intensifies the meaning of the imperfect verb (hence the usual translation of “you shall surely die”). This grammatical construction is quite common in the Old Testament, not just with this verb but others also, and does indicate (or intensify) the certainty of the action. The scholarly reference work by Bruce K. Waltke and M. O’Conner, An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax (Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 1990), gives many Biblical examples of this,1 and they say that “the precise nuance of intensification [of the verbal meaning] must be discovered from the broader context.”2 Clearly in the context of Genesis 3, Adam and Eve died spiritually instantly they were separated from God and hid themselves.
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