What to expect in Hell

[Brother-Paul]

Yeah, it would be great if this was taught more. Honestly I wonder how many pastors even realize it. It's all through the Paul's writings.

I read this week that the Church of England is to approach the Jews to convert to Christianity.

Isn't this following what the RCC has done in the past and would still try do today?

I remember talking with a lovely man of God, he was a Pentecostal minister. He said to me, 'You know Paul, the two hardest groups to bring to Christ are the Jews and the Roman Catholics, they are so set in their ways and what they teach each other'

Guess the same could be said for muslim's, they believe their 'religion' should be the only religion.

Religion being - man's attempt to come to God.
True Christianity - God's attempt to come to man.
Although some forms of Christianity could be called religion, as many think or are taught that they have to work or do something to obtain their salvation.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Yeah, it would be great if this was taught more. Honestly I wonder how many pastors even realize it. It's all through the Paul's writings.

Totally agree brother, with all of your comments here.

Instead of realising we are grafted in, many build a wall.

See my other posts earlier, Church of England said this week it is to approach the Jewish religion, for them to be converted to Christianity, I bet they don't discuss the scriptures confirming Gentiles are grafted into the original vine. We can only pray brother.

 

[Butch5]

I read this week that the Church of England is to approach the Jews to convert to Christianity.

Isn't this following what the RCC has done in the past and would still try do today?

I remember talking with a lovely man of God, he was a Pentecostal minister. He said to me, 'You know Paul, the two hardest groups to bring to Christ are the Jews and the Roman Catholics, they are so set in their ways and what they teach each other'

Guess the same could be said for muslim's, they believe their 'religion' should be the only religion.

Religion being - man's attempt to come to God.
True Christianity - God's attempt to come to man.
Although some forms of Christianity could be called religion, as many think or are taught that they have to work or do something to obtain their salvation.

I've found that Christians in general are the hardest ones to talk to. As soon as you present something to them that presents difficulty to their theology they try to prove you wrong. Even when they can't they will insist you are wrong. It's really sad.

 

[Butch5]

Totally agree brother, with all of your comments here.

Instead of realising we are grafted in, many build a wall.

See my other posts earlier, Church of England said this week it is to approach the Jewish religion, for them to be converted to Christianity, I bet they don't discuss the scriptures confirming Gentiles are grafted into the original vine. We can only pray brother.

They probably won't. I think part of the reason is because there are so many of the doctrines don't make sense. Even when people can't explain what they believe they still argue it's true.

 

[KingJ]

This has nothing to do with the subject.

I gave you a scripture that said Jesus spoke to spirits in prison / Hades. You said it was fallen angels. I then gave you scripture that states salvation is not for angels. You now say it has nothing to do with the subject?

The point is that if someone is going to die and another throws them a rope, that is not a wicked act.

As I have explained, that is half the truth.

Your scenario, "marry me or die" is only evil if the one saying marry me is going to kill the other person.

But that is your belief. You believe God says to us ''marry me or die''. Which is evil. Good to hear you acknowledge that.

 

[KingJ]

Read that passage closely, he was put to death and made alive.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Pet. 3:18 KJV)

He died and was raised.

The idea that ones's flesh dies, but yet somehow they didn't die is not a Biblical concept. It's from Greek philosophy. Man is a flesh being that has in him the breath or spirit of God. It is this breath or spirit that gives man life, and that animates him. When a man dies that breath or spirit of God returns to Him and the man returns to the dust. When the John wrote his first epistle he said,

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 Jn. 4:2 KJV)

The word translated "come" is in the Greek Perfect tense. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose results continue to the present. That means that when John wrote his epistle some 60 years after the resurrection Jesus was still in the flesh.

I think you are missing the fact that the scripture says a human has a spirit. Whether they are wicked or good, in need of being ''quickened'' by God, separate issue.

 

[KingJ]

This isn't accurate. A human consists of the dust, or elements of the earth.


KJV Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1

Man consists of the elements of the earth. The passage goes on to say that God breathed the breath, or spirit, of life into the man. This breath, or spirit, is not man. It's a part of God. God breathes this into man. When that happened the man became a living soul. From this passage we can see that a soul consists of the man, or body, and the breath or spirit of life from God. When the body and the breath or spirit of life from God combine, they together become something else, a living soul. The soul isn't a part of man, it is the whole of man, a living being. The spirit in man isn't man, it belongs to God and returns to Him when the man dies. Apart from the body or the breath, there is no man.

Gen 2:7 speaks to the soul and body. 1 Thess 5:23 adds that a spirit is also present. If you cherry pick Gen 2:7 and preach that as the a-z of our make up, you are teaching falsely.

 

[Butch5]

I gave you a scripture that said Jesus spoke to spirits in prison / Hades. You said it was fallen angels. I then gave you scripture that states salvation is not for angels. You now say it has nothing to do with the subject?

Yes, the spirits in prison were angels and demons. It has nothing to do with salvation. Jesus didn't proclaim salvation to the angels and demons. This is why it's so important to read the Scriptures in context and just grab a verse here and a verse there. Look at the passage in context. Here is the passage in context.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
(1 Pet. 3:18-22 KJV)

If we read the passage, without verse 21 which is Peter's side note about baptism, we see that Christ was, put to death, quickened and then went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison. Notice in verse 22 what the proclamation was, "angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him". He wasn't proclaiming the Gospel. He was proclaiming to the spirits in prison that, angels and authorities and powers had been made subject to Him.

As I have explained, that is half the truth.

You've given your opinion.

But that is your belief. You believe God says to us ''marry me or die''. Which is evil. Good to hear you finally acknowledge that.

No, you're the one who keeps harping on the "marry me or die" statement. All men face death. God has simply extended His hand to those who are willing to accept it. That is not evil, that is love.

You may really want to rethink your theology. You've got some serious errors there.

 

[Butch5]

I think you are missing the fact that the scripture says a human has a spirit. Whether they are wicked or good, in need of being ''quickened'' by God, separate issue.

I;m not missing that a human has a spirit. I've already agreed to that. However, as I said, that spirit is God's. It's His breath or spirit of life. So humans have a spirit, but they are not a spirit. Man is not a spirit or a spirit being. In everything we see in Scripture, the only spirit we see in man is God's spirit. When someone in Scripture says, "my spirit" they are referring to God's spirit in them. God's spirit brings life to man.

 

[KingJ]

Yes, the spirits in prison were angels and demons. It has nothing to do with salvation. Jesus didn't proclaim salvation to the angels and demons. This is why it's so important to read the Scriptures in context and just grab a verse here and a verse there. Look at the passage in context. Here is the passage in context.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
(1 Pet. 3:18-22 KJV)

If we read the passage, without verse 21 which is Peter's side note about baptism, we see that Christ was, put to death, quickened and then went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison. Notice in verse 22 what the proclamation was, "angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him". He wasn't proclaiming the Gospel. He was proclaiming to the spirits in prison that, angels and authorities and powers had been made subject to Him.

It took Jesus three days to say verse 22 to the fallen angels?

Why would He do that? They already know. Peter is making that statement for us, for our information. It is not Jesus's proclamation.

That is a serious straw grab right there!

You've given your opinion.

Scripture says we are ...the bride...of Christ. A groom and bride being a lot more then unlucky individuals drowning and in need of a rope is a fact. Not an opinion.

No, you're the one who keeps harping on the "marry me or die" statement. All men face death. God has simply extended His hand to those who are willing to accept it. That is not evil, that is love.

You may really want to rethink your theology. You've got some serious errors there.

You have an ice cold view of God and seem clueless on what ''love'' is.

 

[KingJ]

I;m not missing that a human has a spirit. I've already agreed to that. However, as I said, that spirit is God's. It's His breath or spirit of life. So humans have a spirit, but they are not a spirit. Man is not a spirit or a spirit being. In everything we see in Scripture, the only spirit we see in man is God's spirit. When someone in Scripture says, "my spirit" they are referring to God's spirit in them. God's spirit brings life to man.

1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. Please note the 'your' spirit.

 

[Butch5]

Gen 2:7 speaks to the soul and body. 1 Thess 5:23 adds that a spirit is also present. If you cherry pick Gen 2:7 and preach that as the a-z of our make up, you are teaching falsely.

Genesis 2:7 also speaks of the spirit. It is the breath of life. If you haven't read the discussion between me and Brother Paul I would encourage you to do so. We were discussing this word spirit. The English word "spirit" is a figurative usage of the Greek and Hebrew words translated spirit. The Hebrew words are "neshamah" and "ruach". The Greek word is "pneuma". All three of these words literally mean wind. When they are translated as spirit it is a figure of speech. When Gen 2:7 speaks of the breath of life it is the Neshamal or spirit of life. So, you can see that the body, the spirit, and the soul, are all mentioned in Gen 2:7 and we see from that that the body and the breath or spirit of life together form something else, the soul.

In Ezekiel 37 God gives Ezekiel a picture of the resurrection of Israel.

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.1
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and per.formed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1-14 KJV)

Yellow= ruach, wind or breath.
In this passage I have put the Hebrew word, "ruach" in yellow and bold. As you can see the translators have used three different words to translate this one Hebrew word. This is one of the reasons there is so much confusion among Christians.

However, notice what it is that makes them alive, it is God's breath or spirit. There is absolutely nothing here at all about any other breath or spirit than that of God. He does say anything about putting "their" spirit in them, it's God's. He doesn't say anything about putting a soul or "their" soul in them. This is the same creation that we see in Genesis 2:7. So, the both times we see man created it's exactly the same. God creates a body and them breathes "His" breath or spirit in them and they live.

 

[Butch5]

1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. Please note the 'your' spirit.

Yes , I've covered this. It is God's breath or spirit of life in them.

 

[Butch5]

It took Jesus three days to say verse 22 to the fallen angels?

Why would He do that? They already know. Peter is making that statement for us, for our information. It is not Jesus's proclamation.

That is a serious straw grab right there!

Scripture says we are ...the bride...of Christ. A groom and bride being a lot more then unlucky individuals drowning and in need of a rope is a fact. Not an opinion.



You have an ice cold view of God and seem clueless on what ''love'' is.

Can you please make a logical argument. Your opinions are opinions. How one thinks or feels doesn't change what the Scriptures say.

 

[KingJ]

Can you please make a logical argument. Your opinions are opinions. How one thinks or feels doesn't change what the Scriptures say.

Logical? Opinions? I find that ironic.

You base your belief off of a literal reading of a few cherry picked scriptures and apply no logic.

Example:

You said the spirits in prison were fallen angels and then say 1 Pet 3:22 is what He proclaimed to them when He was there for three days.

A one line proclamation takes about ten seconds.

The following questions arise:

1. What did He do for the remaining 71 hours and 59 minutes.
2. Why proclaim anything to them if He is not boastful?
3. Why spend three days in Hades speaking to the fallen angels if the plan of salvation / Jesus's reason for coming to earth and dying on the cross has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with them?

And....the spirits in prison / Hades is your opinion.

There are many references to the wicked being cast down to hell / Hades throughout the OT. One example that comes to mind is Matt 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

 

[KingJ]

Yes , I've covered this. It is God's breath or spirit of life in them.

No you have not. 1 Thess 5:23 says YOUR SPIRIT. That another verse speaks to God's spirit or Him lifting up Jesus from the grave is a separate issue.

Christianity, Catholic and Protestant has taught for eons that man is three parts. But, your cherry picked Gen 2:7 view trumps this right.

 

[Butch5]

Logical? Opinions? I find that ironic.

You base your belief off of a literal reading of a few cherry picked scriptures and apply no logic.

Example:

You said the spirits in prison were fallen angels and then say 1 Pet 3:22 is what He proclaimed to them when He was there for three days.

A one line proclamation takes about ten seconds.

The following questions arise:

1. What did He do for the remaining 71 hours and 59 minutes.
2. Why proclaim anything to them if He is not boastful?
3. Why spend three days in Hades speaking to the fallen angels if the plan of salvation / Jesus's reason for coming to earth and dying on the cross has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with them?

And....the spirits in prison / Hades is your opinion.

There are many references to the wicked being cast down to hell / Hades throughout the OT. One example that comes to mind is Matt 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

Yeah, It's very logical. The passages I picked are ones that tell us how man was created. I'm not using passages where something is inferred. The passages I posted explain clearly how man was created. I think part of the reason you're not understanding what I'm saying is that you're filtering it through your theology rather than just what I said. For instance, I never said anything about three days. I didn't say He was speaking to fallen angels in Hades. I have to assume these questions are coming from your theological beliefs. As I've said before, Hades is the grave, the dead are dead, they are not alive. When Jesus was in the tomb, He was dead. The dead cannot speak, thus Jesus didn't make any proclamations when He was dead, in Hades. As I've said before, if you look at the order of events it's pretty clear that Jesus made the proclamation to the spirits in prison "After" He resurrected.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (1 Pet. 3:18-19 KJV)

Notice the order, put to death, quickened, went and proclaimed. He made the proclamation after His resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

No you have not. 1 Thess 5:23 says YOUR SPIRIT. That another verse speaks to God's spirit or Him lifting up Jesus from the grave is a separate issue.

Christianity, Catholic and Protestant has taught for eons that man is three parts. But, your cherry picked Gen 2:7 view trumps this right.

I have. Yes, it says "your spirit". The word "your" indicates possession, not person. If someones says to you "your truck", does that mean you are a truck? Or, does it mean you possess a truck? The word "your "shows possession, the word "you" shows person. For instance, God said to Adam,

19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return." (Gen. 3:19 NKJ)

God said to Adam, "YOU" are dust. You, denotes person. He didn't say, your body is dust. When Paul says, your spirit, it's because you are in possession of a spirit. The question is, what is that spirit? As we saw in Gen 2:7 and in Ezekiel 37 that spirit is God's. I can post a bunch of Scripture passages indicating such. For instance.

14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust. (Job 34:14-15 NKJ)

Job says that if God were to gather His "ruach" and his "neshamah" all flesh would die. That tells us that every living being is being sustained by God. Paul tells us the same thing.

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1 Tim. 6:13 NKJ)

Paul tells us that God gives, present tense, life to all things. He didn't say God gave life to all things. He said He gives life to all things. It's in the present tense, God is giving life to all things. So again, we see the same thing. God is sustaining all life with His spirit' ruach/neshamah. That is the spirit that is in all life.

But notice in the passage from Job, what does he say would happen if God did that? He says man would return to the dust. There's nothing there about anything living on. Man would return to the dust. It's the same thing that God told Adam. God said "YOU", indicating person, There is no "Human spirit". You won't find that in the Scriptures. People read that idea into the Scriptures. Most people through history have believed that the dead are alive in some form and as such read that into the Scriptures.

What people have taught for "eons" has no bearing on what the Scriptures teach. People taught for a long time that the earth was flat. That didn't make it flat. There are still people today that teach evolution, that doesn't make it so.

 

[Sue D.]

God Did create mankind / Adam From the dust of the ground. Dirt. When our physical body dies -- it Does return to it's natural beginning state that Adam was created From. But every human being Does have that eternal soul that continues on.
The part of each person that either accepts Christ or rejects Him as personal Lord / Savior Is the 'human spirit'. Your bio info says that you're a Christian -- so I'd assume that you'd believe that we all have a spirit // soul -- the part of us that the Holy Spirit convicts of our sinfulness and will exist throughout eternity either in heaven or hell.

Evolution has been brought up -- the comment that 'there are still people today that teach evolution" yes, it IS a huge subject and Wide-accepted as Fact -- Today. And that comparison is Usually used the opposite way -- as in 'yes, Bible Does teach that God created everything , but that doesn't make it so.' And theistic evolution is popular. And people use the verse stating that 'a thousand years are like a day and a day like a thousand years' to justify that a 'day' of creation was Really 1,000 yrs. And that gives evolution a chance to 'work'.

I don't mean to derail the thread to evolution.

 

[Butch5]

God Did create mankind / Adam From the dust of the ground. Dirt. When our physical body dies -- it Does return to it's natural beginning state that Adam was created From. But every human being Does have that eternal soul that continues on.
The part of each person that either accepts Christ or rejects Him as personal Lord / Savior Is the 'human spirit'. Your bio info says that you're a Christian -- so I'd assume that you'd believe that we all have a spirit // soul -- the part of us that the Holy Spirit convicts of our sinfulness and will exist throughout eternity either in heaven or hell.

Evolution has been brought up -- the comment that 'there are still people today that teach evolution" yes, it IS a huge subject and Wide-accepted as Fact -- Today. And that comparison is Usually used the opposite way -- as in 'yes, Bible Does teach that God created everything , but that doesn't make it so.' And theistic evolution is popular. And people use the verse stating that 'a thousand years are like a day and a day like a thousand years' to justify that a 'day' of creation was Really 1,000 yrs. And that gives evolution a chance to 'work'.

I don't mean to derail the thread to evolution.

Hi Sue,

Yes I am a Christian. However, I have to disagree with you that every human has an eternal soul that lives on after death. Firstly, I would point out that Paul said that the Father alone has immortality. That verse alone tells us there is no eternal human soul. The only way anyone lives is that God gives them life. Secondly, I would ask, if every person had an eternal human soul, what is the point of God's gift? Paul said the gift of God is eternal life. If everyone already has eternal life, what need is there for God to offer it?

I don't believe that man "has" a soul, I believe man "is" a soul. We read in Gen 2:7 that God created the man from the dust of the earth. So, the man is of the dust of the earth. Then we find that God breathed His breath or spirit into the man and a transformation took place. The man, the body, became a living soul. From this we see that a living soul consists of two parts, the man, or body, and the breath/spirit of God. We are told in Scripture that when the man dies the breath/spirit returns to God and the man returns to dust. Since the soul consists of two parts, if one of those is removed there is no longer a soul.

In the Scriptures the word soul is used two ways. It is used concretely of a living being as we see in Gen 2:7. It is used abstractly of life. For instance,

10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:10-11 KJV)

Notice the word "life" in verse 11. It is the word soul. God tells them that anyone among them who eats blood, He will set His face against that soul. For the soul of the flesh is in the blood. Notice that He calls them souls, this is the concrete usage. Then He says that the soul of the flesh is in the blood, it's translated "life" this is the abstract usage. This is how soul is used in the Scriptures. The Scriptures don't use the word soul of a disembodied consciousness.

Also, I don't hold to the idea of eternal conscious torment in hell. In the Scriptures hell is the grave.