What to expect in hell
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Beetow
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In the story told at Luke 16:19-31, there's a rich man dead and buried (Luke
19:22) and there's the patriarch Abraham dead and buried. (Gen 25:9)
Well; the thing is: the rich man is able to see from his grave over to Abraham's
grave, and they are able to communicate from grave to grave. I am very curious
how Abraham's corpse, and the other guy's corpse, are able to communicate with
one another at all let alone through the ground like that.
There's also a pauper in the story who, when he passed away, was more than
likely disposed of in a city dump rather than given a decent burial yet there he is
apparently buried alongside Abraham in the very same grave.
And how is it that the rich man could see the pauper below ground when quite possibly
his remains were above ground in a dump.
_
19:22) and there's the patriarch Abraham dead and buried. (Gen 25:9)
Well; the thing is: the rich man is able to see from his grave over to Abraham's
grave, and they are able to communicate from grave to grave. I am very curious
how Abraham's corpse, and the other guy's corpse, are able to communicate with
one another at all let alone through the ground like that.
There's also a pauper in the story who, when he passed away, was more than
likely disposed of in a city dump rather than given a decent burial yet there he is
apparently buried alongside Abraham in the very same grave.
And how is it that the rich man could see the pauper below ground when quite possibly
his remains were above ground in a dump.
_
Bill
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From my understanding about hell people who are there won't have time to worry about looking for friends of theirs as a torments are more personal. I think the understanding that you're separated from God will be torment in itself not including being harassed by constant demons
Bill
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By the way out of curiosity why are you so preoccupied with this whole subject. Maybe we should talk more about Jesus and all the good things of Heaven instead
KingJ
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''In the King James Bible, the Old Testament term Sheol is translated as "Hell" 31 times, and it is translated as "the grave" 31 times. Sheol is also translated as "the pit" three times.''
Having discussed this topic for eons. I can say that most refer to the 'bad place' in the afterlife as 'hell'. Whether it be Hades, Sheol, lake of fire, grave, Hades or the pit. Most don't know of Abraham's bosom or that Sheol is thrown into the lake of fire. It is not necessary to nit pic on the term 'hell'. We need to focus effort on ensuring all understand that there was a pleasant place within Hades called Abraham's bosom, that this place was emptied by Jesus and will together with the 'hellish' side, one-day be thrown into the eternal lake of fire.
Not sure I am following. There can never be a 'without God' in the universe.
I only know of Exodus 33:23 that says ''Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen''.
This is a form of chastisement not complete abandonment.
Completely disagree.
What sensible Judge and jury would do such with any victim guilty of a crime?
This is an absolutely heretical statement and assumption that many make. It implies God is evil. Only an evil being would do such. You are teaching all that God is evil if you state this. Please try understand that.
God is a good God Psalm 136:1 who is righteous in ALL His ways to the exclusion of none!!! Psalm 145:17.
Please think long and hard before making such statements. You do not want to be that person standing before God of the universe who is guilty of completely and utterly misrepresenting Him to the lost He loves and died for.
God does not do that right now, God did not do that yesterday, God will not do it in the future. He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. You are preaching of a different God to God of scripture. Stop doing that!!
Disagree. Do you have any scripture?
Humans stay humans and all humans are capable of love.
Love:
1. an intense feeling of deep affection.
2. a great interest and pleasure in something
KingJ
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If you want to know someone, you look at how they treat those they don't need to be nice to. Hell is a very important topic. Christians need to think fifty times about what they implying / stating / teaching before they simply make a post.
If I were an unsaved person and listened to statements you have made about hell, I would not be interested in anything else you had to say about your god.
Like this line for example ''From my understanding about hell people who are there won't have time to worry about looking for friends of theirs as a torments are more personal. I think the understanding that you're separated from God will be torment in itself not including being harassed by constant demons''.
I am just fortunate enough to know that this line is 100% opinionated fiction and not supported by any scripture.
Beetow
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Well; if the story told at Luke 16:19-31 is at all based upon an actual incident, then
I think we may safely assume that just as the rich man was worried about his kin
while they were yet alive, he'd be just as concerned about them after they died.
For some families, the only thing they have to look forward to in the afterlife is a
sad reunion in fire and despair.
_
Death "the letter of the law" .Thou shalt not.
I would agree very important .Eternal consequences to those who hold to the breath of life after death. Believer receive a new spirit that could never die they have passed from eternal death to eternal life.. .no longer under the letter of the law.(death)
The letter of the law death along with the daily sufferings of hell will be cast into the judgment fire . It will not raise up and condemn the new creatures to death . All die not receive the new body our living hope. When they receive thier new incorruptible bodies like their new spirit it will never die as in aging leading to a end . . . dying coming to a end.
Some say dying is leading toward more suffering . . LImbo Purgatory
There will be no idle threats from other . I told you you will end up sufferings forever you should of listened ..
Life beyond one's last breath (limbo purgatory) is a doctrine of men that does despite to the "fullness' of grace" the complete price of salvation .
Yoked with Christ our daily sufferings of hell living in bodies of death is made lighter .
The old testament Jewish law of the kings, fathers. . a hierarchy of men lording it over the understanding (faith) non venerable pew warmers . An oral traditions of men as commandments of men passed onat the first century reformation .The beginning of Catholicism.
Therefore without a queen of heaven who they teach alone received the full price of salvation and not a remnant of grace.Teaching the rest of the world they receive a unknown remnant and must continue to suffer and wonder, wonder wonder never comes to a end, death
Remove the Queen. . remove the idea of breathing after one takes their last breath Win win for those who mock the letter of the law . .death
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Although there must be heresies amongst us ( differences of opinion ) as oral traditions. Denying the fullness of Christ's grace by using a queen of heaven . . . brings death according to the letter.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
As long as an oral tradition does not deny the fullness of grace (God's power as a labor of His alone ) they can be used . Christmas Easter, birthday parties, mothers day etc
B-A-C
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Hades is NOT purgatory. In the Roman Catholic purgatory, you can have a "second chance". People can "pray" or "pay" ( indulgences ) or in some cases even work for you to get out of Hades.
But this isn't in the Bible. No second chances. Once you are dead... the path is set for eternity.
No limbo, no purgatory.
Hades is like a jail. It's where you stay until the sentencing happens. Then you go to prison ( the Lake of fire ). Hades is temporary, the Lake of Fire is eternal.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Bill
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I honestly cannot say, if Hades is a stopping place for hell. I do know about purgatory and I do know that you cannot buy your way into heaven. It takes a lot of prayer to get out of purgatory from people on the outside. But if you're on the inside of purgatory without prayer you're there for a much longer time.
I can tell you without a doubt, did I do not know everything. But the things I do know I know are real. Purgatory is a real place. The Lord has taken me their number times to talk with people who are in there and to help them.
If you know about my spiritual work, the Lord has me doing a lot of spiritual warfare. I do what is known as out of the body experience with angels fighting the darkness
As the Lord has me in command of this, I have included many people who are in purgatory working with me fighting the darkness. It is a form of Prayer.
I will tell you that I see many Protestant ministers as well as priests who are in purgatory. And the one thing that they all say in common is, thank God it's real. ( yes even in the Catholic Church there are priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes, that do not believe in purgatory)
The best way I can explain it, is let us say you spend all of your life trying to please God. And then before you die because you don't know when you're going to die, let us say you mess up big time. Could be anything. And then you die.
Based on your own teaching, that person would go to hell. But because God gives Grace to those who love him, even though a person dies in sin, God gives Grace to that person. Because he knows where that person's heart truly is.
When Jesus died on the cross for us, he did not die for continuing sin. When you received Jesus as your lord and savior all the sins from your past are wiped out. And you have been baptized in the water you are now part of the family of God. But that does not stop you from sinning. And it is that sinning that you still have to confess to God. Whether it is through a priest or going directly to God it doesn't matter you still have to confess your sins.
I have seen churches who preach that it doesn't matter what you sin after you receive Jesus. You can do all the sinning you want it's already forgiven. That is a false teaching.
So that is what Purgatory is for it's kind of like a net for the children of God. It is the divine mercy of God, also known as the grace of God.
Beetow
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Some years ago on another forum, a Jewish man asked me about Jesus' crucifixion.
It was his understanding that the cross absolves Christ's believing followers of all
past sins up to the point of their conversion; but not future sins.
The thing is: Yom Kippur is somewhat limited. It can only address the Jews' sins up
to a point, but the moment the ritual is over, they begin accumulating sins towards
the next Yom Kippur. In other words: the ritual is always catching up, it's never
ahead. For that reason Yom Kippur has to be repeated over and over again ad
infinitum.
Well; Jesus is never going to be put to death for the sins of the world ever again.
So if his one-time offering failed to satisfy the consequences for all sins, both past
and future, once and for all, then his followers are still in grave danger of the sum
of all fears; especially Catholics because when a Catholic leaves this life with even
one un-absolved mortal sin on the books-- just one --they go straight to Hell; it's a
direct flight, no stopover in a purgatory, viz: they leave this world just as doomed
as if they'd been a pagan their entire lives. Mortal sins are that lethal.
FAQ: If Jesus' crucifixion satisfied the consequences for all my sins, both past and
future per Isa 53:6, then what's the point of 1John 1:6-9?
REPLY: It's for fellowship. The thing is: God values transparency in His friends. If
folks are to walk with Him-- i.e. enjoy the benefits of His association --they have to
be open and above board, i.e. frank, candid, and most of all: totally honest about
themselves even to the point of shame and embarrassment.
And don't worry about shocking God with your secrets: He's seen it all, heard it all,
and knows all. People are so redundant that I really don't know how we don't bore
God to yawns and tears. But you see, people are individuals, viz: your mistakes
aren't someone else's mistakes as if we were all wired into a Borg hive collective.
Your mistakes are yours, you own them, and He wants you alone to talk about
them rather than somebody else talking about them for you. Fellowship is, after all,
father and child one-on-one.
_
It was his understanding that the cross absolves Christ's believing followers of all
past sins up to the point of their conversion; but not future sins.
The thing is: Yom Kippur is somewhat limited. It can only address the Jews' sins up
to a point, but the moment the ritual is over, they begin accumulating sins towards
the next Yom Kippur. In other words: the ritual is always catching up, it's never
ahead. For that reason Yom Kippur has to be repeated over and over again ad
infinitum.
Well; Jesus is never going to be put to death for the sins of the world ever again.
So if his one-time offering failed to satisfy the consequences for all sins, both past
and future, once and for all, then his followers are still in grave danger of the sum
of all fears; especially Catholics because when a Catholic leaves this life with even
one un-absolved mortal sin on the books-- just one --they go straight to Hell; it's a
direct flight, no stopover in a purgatory, viz: they leave this world just as doomed
as if they'd been a pagan their entire lives. Mortal sins are that lethal.
FAQ: If Jesus' crucifixion satisfied the consequences for all my sins, both past and
future per Isa 53:6, then what's the point of 1John 1:6-9?
REPLY: It's for fellowship. The thing is: God values transparency in His friends. If
folks are to walk with Him-- i.e. enjoy the benefits of His association --they have to
be open and above board, i.e. frank, candid, and most of all: totally honest about
themselves even to the point of shame and embarrassment.
And don't worry about shocking God with your secrets: He's seen it all, heard it all,
and knows all. People are so redundant that I really don't know how we don't bore
God to yawns and tears. But you see, people are individuals, viz: your mistakes
aren't someone else's mistakes as if we were all wired into a Borg hive collective.
Your mistakes are yours, you own them, and He wants you alone to talk about
them rather than somebody else talking about them for you. Fellowship is, after all,
father and child one-on-one.
_
KingJ
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Purgatory is a very sensible belief for a Christian to have. God is just. Lake of fire is eternal. God would not send any to eternal punishment if there was any hope of them repenting and making right.
Catholics use mainly a passage in the Maccabees and a few other 'cherry' picked scriptures to formulate this belief.
Having said that, what I believe Catholics fail to grasp by holding to such a belief is the fact that God is not a fool. He is not a human. If He makes a decision it is correct, final and binding. Only He can judge hearts and minds at depths of intent Jer 17:9-12. As such, there is no need for a Purgatory. The coming millennium is the time zone for all children and mentally handicapped adults to be tried and tested. I am sure that if God felt there were some adults not mentally handicapped and not given sufficient opportunity to be tried and tested, He would bring them back in this period too.
It is the teaching of what takes place in Purgatory that urks me and does not witness with my spirit. The punishment and torture. God does not torture, period. Torture is evil. Anyone who does it is evil. Fact. No debate. But, to repeat myself, the idea of a Purgatory, as in a place to be better / more fully tried and tested is logical and sound. All should agree with something like this or be able to offer a better, more sound explanation that does not incriminate God.
Some just blindly quote scripture and fail to properly defend God. This does not help our cause. The moment we incriminate God, we fail at our one job as Christians.
This example of yours assumes Once Saved Always Saved is not real. It is. There are a lot of holes in a belief that suggests we need to keep ourselves saved. But perhaps a discussion for another thread.
I will just say that God is not a 'fool' that grafts a devil into heaven or a saint into hell. David committed two mortal sins but God just knew that someone with his heart, would inevitably repent of them.
I agree with this. Not sure if I am misreading you. Why believe in Purgatory if you believe in OSAS?
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KingJ
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Deut 32:4 The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are just.
BAC, you are a well learned Christian. Your understanding and interpretation of scripture needs to start evolving. You need to properly grasp a verse like Deut 32:4 and allow it to shed light on your 'hard headed' (I mean that in the nicest sense
) view of something like your anti - Purgatory stance.Understand the point Bill and Catholics are making. You can't simply state ''Once you are dead... the path is set for eternity''. That line completely misrepresents God.
Beetow
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One of the Church's earliest official proclamations regarding a purgatory was Pope
Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine. In the year 1520 he stated, along with some other
things, that death is the termination not of nature but of sin, and this inability to sin
makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final happiness.
In other words: according to Leo X, the occupants of a purgatory are unable to sin;
consequently they won't commit any new sins while undergoing discipline and
purification.
I'm sure it can be seen right off just how essential it would be for souls in a
purgatory to be incapable of sinning, because if they weren't, then Rome’s promise
in CCC.1030, of an assured eternal salvation for purgatorians, would be a tenuous
guarantee indeed since each new sin committed while interred in a purgatory would
add time to the penitent’s original sentence; with the very real possibility of
potentially snow-balling to the point where they would never be released.
If Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine is correct as regards the absence of sin in
purgatory then I would have to conclude that it's a very peaceful place seeing as
how everyone in residence there would be complying with the Sermon On The
Mount and all the beatitudes.
One of the things that I would really appreciate in Leo's purgatory is civility. I've
participated on better than forty Christian internet forums beginning in 1997, and
one of the things I've noticed is that too many people wearing the Christian label
have forgotten all about turning the other cheek. Oh m' gosh you wouldn't believe
how ugly, spiteful, and vindictive Christians can be when they put their minds to it!
In Leo's purgatory; there's no cruelty of any kind; for example dishonesty,
malicious gossip, demeaning comments, thoughtless remarks, name-calling, toxic
rejoinders, discourtesy, chafing, quarrelling, bickering, mockery, relentless ridicule,
. . . fault-finding, nit picking, spite, rivalry, carping, bullying, heckling, intimidation,
wiseacre retorts, needling, taunting, biting sarcasm, petty ill will, yelling, ugly
insinuations, cold-shouldering, calculated insults, snobbery, elitism, arrogance,
subterfuge, antisocial behaviors, sociopaths, crime, war, despotism, oppression,
injustice, human rights abuses, character assassination, etc, etc, et al, and ad
nauseam.
If Leo is correct. then we can expect that all the Christian virtues, every one of
them, are being exemplified 24/7/365 in purgatory.
However, if Leo's Bull is full of bull, then I think we can reasonably expect
purgatory's social environment to be little different than what we're accustomed.
Most Catholics regard purgatory as a safety net whence they will be taken in the
event they fail to sufficiently measure up to God's standards. However, purgatory is
not all that easy to attain. According to the Catechism, CCC 1035, Catholics are just
inches from the worst. Should it happen that they leave this life with just one un
absolved mortal sin on the books, just one, they go directly to Hell; no stop-over in
a half-way house. No, their trip is a direct flight. Even if they've been a faithful
Catholic for 49 years, they will miss the boat just as if they had been a Hindu, or a
Muslim, or an atheist. All their years as a faithful Catholic will be stricken from the
record and count for naught.
FAQ: Does the Bible teach the existence of a purgatory?
REPLY: Though there are numerous passages in the Bible that allude to the
possibility; all such passages are indirect references rather than obvious,
clear-cut, black and white teachings; ergo: there's a very good chance that
purgatory is the product of sophistry and a fertile imagination.
However, passages that suggest one thing, can also be made to suggest another,
so I do not recommend putting too much stock in Rome's ideas. It is much safer to
assume the worst, and then begin preparing yourself for it in the event that
purgatory turns out to be a huge mistake, viz: just as there are no second place
winners in a gunfight, it just might be there are no second place winners in matters
related to Heaven and Hell.
_
Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine. In the year 1520 he stated, along with some other
things, that death is the termination not of nature but of sin, and this inability to sin
makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final happiness.
In other words: according to Leo X, the occupants of a purgatory are unable to sin;
consequently they won't commit any new sins while undergoing discipline and
purification.
I'm sure it can be seen right off just how essential it would be for souls in a
purgatory to be incapable of sinning, because if they weren't, then Rome’s promise
in CCC.1030, of an assured eternal salvation for purgatorians, would be a tenuous
guarantee indeed since each new sin committed while interred in a purgatory would
add time to the penitent’s original sentence; with the very real possibility of
potentially snow-balling to the point where they would never be released.
If Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine is correct as regards the absence of sin in
purgatory then I would have to conclude that it's a very peaceful place seeing as
how everyone in residence there would be complying with the Sermon On The
Mount and all the beatitudes.
One of the things that I would really appreciate in Leo's purgatory is civility. I've
participated on better than forty Christian internet forums beginning in 1997, and
one of the things I've noticed is that too many people wearing the Christian label
have forgotten all about turning the other cheek. Oh m' gosh you wouldn't believe
how ugly, spiteful, and vindictive Christians can be when they put their minds to it!
In Leo's purgatory; there's no cruelty of any kind; for example dishonesty,
malicious gossip, demeaning comments, thoughtless remarks, name-calling, toxic
rejoinders, discourtesy, chafing, quarrelling, bickering, mockery, relentless ridicule,
. . . fault-finding, nit picking, spite, rivalry, carping, bullying, heckling, intimidation,
wiseacre retorts, needling, taunting, biting sarcasm, petty ill will, yelling, ugly
insinuations, cold-shouldering, calculated insults, snobbery, elitism, arrogance,
subterfuge, antisocial behaviors, sociopaths, crime, war, despotism, oppression,
injustice, human rights abuses, character assassination, etc, etc, et al, and ad
nauseam.
If Leo is correct. then we can expect that all the Christian virtues, every one of
them, are being exemplified 24/7/365 in purgatory.
However, if Leo's Bull is full of bull, then I think we can reasonably expect
purgatory's social environment to be little different than what we're accustomed.
Most Catholics regard purgatory as a safety net whence they will be taken in the
event they fail to sufficiently measure up to God's standards. However, purgatory is
not all that easy to attain. According to the Catechism, CCC 1035, Catholics are just
inches from the worst. Should it happen that they leave this life with just one un
absolved mortal sin on the books, just one, they go directly to Hell; no stop-over in
a half-way house. No, their trip is a direct flight. Even if they've been a faithful
Catholic for 49 years, they will miss the boat just as if they had been a Hindu, or a
Muslim, or an atheist. All their years as a faithful Catholic will be stricken from the
record and count for naught.
FAQ: Does the Bible teach the existence of a purgatory?
REPLY: Though there are numerous passages in the Bible that allude to the
possibility; all such passages are indirect references rather than obvious,
clear-cut, black and white teachings; ergo: there's a very good chance that
purgatory is the product of sophistry and a fertile imagination.
However, passages that suggest one thing, can also be made to suggest another,
so I do not recommend putting too much stock in Rome's ideas. It is much safer to
assume the worst, and then begin preparing yourself for it in the event that
purgatory turns out to be a huge mistake, viz: just as there are no second place
winners in a gunfight, it just might be there are no second place winners in matters
related to Heaven and Hell.
_
Thou shall surely not die Purgatory or limbo imaginary places of suffering giving the illusion of extending the breath of life after death
it.. .must be carried to its conclusion.
No salvation just more sufferings and wondering when will it end ???
Again without a Queen of heaven of those who who seek after lying signs to wonder after (not believe) wondering is wondering. not belief Satan the god of lying wonder . Again the commandments of men teach the whole rest of the world received a unknown remnant of grace never to coming to a end of suffering, . It is even taught that the queen of heaven that they call Mary visits comforts all those who are sufferings from all other denominations
Doing despite to the fullness of Grace a damnable heresy of false prophets, false apostles who look to a Queen
No Queen of heaven, no need for the ideas that mankind does not die and return to the dust as if the rapture on the last day under the Sun had already occurred
KingJ
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Garee, Catholics can put together a lot of scripture to support the belief in Purgatory. It is also a belief that is logical and one that paints God in a better light.
I don't see any scripture from you debunking Purgatory or the need for such a place.
You believe in annihilation. That is fine, better then most beliefs. However, how do you defend free will with such a belief?
Imagine I said to my bride, accept me or die. Annihilation may be better then a belief of eternal torture, but it does certainly not paint God as one who is 'righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17'.
Bill
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Scripture does not support once saved always saved.
This goes back to my thread "points to Ponder pt4" . One of those i did not cover. How Christians do not follow the bible.
In this particular case, Judas Iscariot one of the 12, along with the other 12 were sent out to the various towns. Upon returning they were all excited about everything that they had done. In the scripture itself it lists the names of the Apostles that were sent out to these towns and it states Judas is full name when it says the list, Judas Iscariot.
Jesus tells the apostles, to Rejoice because their names are written in heaven.
This one particular line seems to be forgotten whenever anyone is talking about Judas Iscariot, because they all jump to the conclusion that he was created only to go to hell. As if God creates people to go to hell.
But as scripture States it was later in the relationship with Jesus when Satan entered Judas. After which Judas betrayed Jesus and then killed himself.
It is because of these passages I know that the once saved always saved philosophy is false
Bill
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I know what you mean about the mortal sin, and I'm not exactly sure where I stand with that. But then again those who I see who repent are those who are on Earth versus those who did not repent before dying. But I do know that plenty of people go to purgatory versus straight up to heaven. But so many more like falling leaves go to hell.
Believe it or not, the biggest thing that causes people to be Hell Bound, is man's inhumanity to man. Plainly, no love for each other.
Years ago, the Holy Spirit taught me the phrase, love is the key.
Bill
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There are no secrets with God.
A man i knew, years ago, belonged to a group called 'The Third Order of St. Frances' . For whatever reason this group has "secret meeting" and when they get together they also pray.
I asked if I could come to that meeting and he said no you're not a member of it, and I told him that there are no secrets in God.
So he went to the meeting and when he came back the next day we got together and I told him everything that was in the meeting. And he looked at me and he said how do you know all that. And I reminded him what I said that there are no secrets in God.
KingJ
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There is a lot more to consider but this is not the place to discuss it.
Perhaps create a new thread or find one of the many in history to re-open.
You made this statement ''Based on your own teaching, that person would go to hell. But because God gives Grace to those who love him, even though a person dies in sin, God gives Grace to that person. Because he knows where that person's heart truly is.'' to which I replied. This is in context of the thread. This sounds like an OSAS belief, but can also be Calvinistic.
Do you believe in Calvinism? God cherry picking people for heaven? and annihilating those not picked?
