antimonianism
- Thread starter B-A-C
- Start date
- Status
DHC
Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2013
- Messages
- 1,002
Hello papajim.
I am here to help you papjim, not offend you.
You believe that some type of obedience to the ten commandments
is what the spiritual life involves. Since the law is spiritual (Romans 7:14)
you believe therefore that if you are spiritual then you obey the
ten commandments! I might add that you regard the hundreds of other
laws as null and void, the ten are the moral law. Correct me if I am wrong.
On the surface the simple logic appears to hold water. To be spiritual
I must obey the spiritual law! This is pure Biblical error papajim and
I will explain why.
The Mosaic law exposes the inherent sinful corruption within a Jew.
When the law is viewed the person knows that they are not able
to obey the law. "Thou shall not commit adultery" which Jesus
amplifies to;
Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for
her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
This has condemned nearly all men on earth papajim.
There is no way that your flesh person will not succumb to lust.
Christian or not makes no difference, you will lust.
You have been declared dead by Christ Himself.
There is a key that unlocks the mystery of lawlessness
and the Spirit. This will be difficult for you to understand
papajim so I will make it simple for you.
How does a Christian live a spiritual life and not a life
in the flesh?
Romans 6
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness;
but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
There it is papajim, consider yourself dead to sin, your flesh died
with Christ. You now live by the Spirit and in the Spirit, the flesh
is dead. You are a new creation, a spiritual being seated with Christ
in the heavenly realm. Your flesh is dead in Christ, the law has no
application to a spiritual man. How could you say to a person who
possesses the very mind of Christ "you will not do xxxxx". Any
Christian who has the Spirit walks in love not the flesh. Love
fulfills the law if you are a Jew.
Romans 7
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh,
but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself
to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
These ten Mosaic laws only deal with a microscopic level of sin.
You are living in the flesh and breaking the laws daily, if you are
honest you will admit to this process papajim. You must die with
Christ and live a new life focussed on Christ and the heavenly
destination.
NetChaplain
Active
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2012
- Messages
- 1,490
Righteousness comes by faith my friend.[/QUOTE]
Since "the Spirit of life" (Rom 8:2) is not under a law (Gal 5:23), the believer is "not under law" (Rom 6:14), due his vicarious standing in the life of Christ. The law of God, which now is summed up in neighborly love (John 15:12), without which is void of practical love for God (1 John 4:20), must be obeyed with the obedience of faith; "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Rom 14:23). To obey by faith is to believe in the sufficiency of Christ (always perfect: James 2:10; Heb 4:15) and not self (never perfect: 1 John 1:8). Therefore it is not our life that produces perfect love (God accepts nothing less) to others, but it is through "Christ, who is our life" (Col 3:4) that perfect love is "shed abroad" (Rom 5:5 KJV).
Hi Eddy Fire,
Perhaps you can help in the discussion B-A-C and I have had.
B-A-C has been unable to offer any relevant scripture to support his doctrine that believers "sin". Perhaps you can, if the doctrine you follow is correct as you allege.
Admittedly I used to believe similarly to B-A-C and yourself, but I found scripture just did not support that view. I guess I accepted it was necessary for that former doctrine I believed in, that believers sin, was in need of a "colon cleanse", as you said. And I'm sure the majority of us here have all done this at some point with error doctrines we followed. But I would like to think that many here would continue to always be genuinely open to seeking spiritual truth still.
No doubt you agree that the only way we can receive spiritual understanding is to be taught it by the Holy Spirit. It's the Spirit within us that gives us understanding. So whilst we may share on scriptures through forums etc, others may not comprehend it until they are ready to receive it from the Holy Spirit. And, as you know, if any of us lack wisdom we can ask of God who gives liberally, James 1:5.
Can I ask you some of the same questions I ask B-A-C.
How do you explain 1John 3:9?
It says Christians "cannot sin"
It also says that anyone who does sin is "of the devil"
If Satan the accuser cannot charge Christians with sin, then how can anyone else still do so? Note Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
As Christians "have been sanctifed through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all " (Heb 10:10) then why would anyone doubt God on this and instead claim that we are not yet sanctified? Was not Christ's sacrifice enough to complete the sanctification, "once" as Heb 10:10, says?
Regarding the law/10 commandments that B-A-C argues we need to obey, if a believer does not obey, for example the keeping of the Sabbath, are they unrighteous? Is it sin?
Looking forward to your input.
Thanks.
Last edited:
DHC
Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2013
- Messages
- 1,002
What law exactly are you referring to?
Since "the Spirit of life" (Rom 8:2) is not under a law (Gal 5:23), the believer is "not under law" (Rom 6:14), due his vicarious standing in the life of Christ. The law of God, which now is summed up in neighborly love (John 15:12), without which is void of practical love for God (1 John 4:20), must be obeyed with the obedience of faith; "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Rom 14:23). To obey by faith is to believe in the sufficiency of Christ (always perfect: James 2:10; Heb 4:15) and not self (never perfect: 1 John 1:8). Therefore it is not our life that produces perfect love (God accepts nothing less) to others, but it is through "Christ, who is our life" (Col 3:4) that perfect love is "shed abroad" (Rom 5:5 KJV).[/QUOTE
Agreed!
The law of the Spirit of life is the principle by which the believer grows in Christ's life and is led and guided from within to obey His will in all matters both big and small and are enabled to have a subjective righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees. The command to love God and our neighbour as ourself is not from the Mosaic law but from the very heart and character of God whose Spirit lives within us and functions as the law written on our hearts as He is joined to our spirit and we are one with Him.
Yes, we sin through unbelief. If we are freed from sin and we sin it is through unbelief. If God says the law is righteous and we disobey that which is righteous we sin through unbelief. God has given us everything that you have mentioned in Christ. If we have been sanctified and we sin it is through unbelief. If God says that the sabbath is holy and we do not believe it is holy anymore it is unbelief and therefore becomes sin. "Whatever is not of faith is sin"
We have been made the righteousness of God in Christ so if we do that which is not righteousness it is through unbelief. If our acts are the acts of the flesh and not the righteousness of God it is through unbelief. If God is holy and the law is holy and we do that which is not holy it is through unbelief and it is sin for if righteousness comes by faith then sin comes through unbelief.
To add to what you are saying, the laws of Moses were written down by Moses, but the law of God was written down by God.
Hi papajim,
I disagree with the doctrine you follow and find it is not supported in scripture.
However, you are correct in saying that, "we sin through unbelief". But we differ in what this means.
Unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.
Christ's sacrifice on the cross totally purged/cleansed us of past sin, Rom 3:25. And now in Christ believers cannot be charged with sin any longer, Rom 8:33.
But, if a Christian rebuilds the law/10commandments for themselves, then they sin.
They sin in that they are in unbelief in Jesus by seeking to establish their own righteousness. In doing this they are not submitting to the righteousness of God, just as the Israel did, Rom 10:3.
They also sin in that they cannot keep the law/10 commandments perfectly, as James 2:10 describes. So in rebuilding the law for themselves they in fact makes themselves transgressor of it, Gal 2:18. That is they make themselves a sinner.
Whatever is not of faith is sin. But note also that the law is not of faith.
Gal 3:11-13
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith". Yet the law is not of faith, but the man who does them shall live by them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree")
This scripture confirms those I quoted above. If a Christians turns back to the law/10 commandments to show/prove righteousness, then they will be found to be a sinner through their transgression of it. Thus they will be unrighteous as shown by their imperfect works and in addition their unbelief in Jesus through their self-righteous works leaves them without the imputed righteousness we have in Christ.
DHC
Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2013
- Messages
- 1,002
Hello Papajim.
You seem to have a fixation with the sabbath.
Please read the following material which should
place the sabbath day in it's correct place.
1 Peter 2 (NKJV)
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,
His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him
who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
May I draw your attention to the phrase "a royal priesthood".
When you address me Papajim you are addressing a priest of
Christ Himself. Now please read the following;
Matthew 12
5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests
in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
So you see Papajim due to my royal line, being a priest I am able
to "break the sabbath" without any consequences. You are actually
being disobedient to the law Papajim by instructing a priest to
obey the sabbath. There is no sabbath day for a priest that is our
day of ceaseless work in the kingdom.
What sayeth ye to this?
You seem to have a fixation with the sabbath.
Please read the following material which should
place the sabbath day in it's correct place.
1 Peter 2 (NKJV)
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,
His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him
who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
May I draw your attention to the phrase "a royal priesthood".
When you address me Papajim you are addressing a priest of
Christ Himself. Now please read the following;
Matthew 12
5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests
in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
So you see Papajim due to my royal line, being a priest I am able
to "break the sabbath" without any consequences. You are actually
being disobedient to the law Papajim by instructing a priest to
obey the sabbath. There is no sabbath day for a priest that is our
day of ceaseless work in the kingdom.
What sayeth ye to this?
NetChaplain
Active
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2012
- Messages
- 1,490
Hi James - I like your posts because of their usual applicability to Scripture. My reply is more in the category of encouragement concerning your statement. I believe Christ was indicating that the two greatest commandments (Matt 22:40) represented what the Law taught overall, it (the Law) being the subject during His discussion with the lawyer (Matt 22:36), both of which are addressed to Israel during the OT dispensation of Law (Deu 6:5; Lev 19:18).
My reason for addressing this is related to the significance of the point you're making, which is that now in the dispensation of grace in the "New Covenant," the believer has a new command concerning neighborly love, which is "in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter" (the Law; Rom 7:6). This designs, not a conditional love (as yourself) but unconditional: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (John 13:34).
Please excuse me if I seemed too aggressive with my reply, as it was not my intention. God's blessings to your Family!
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,079
What we define as sin doesn't matter. What God defines as sin is what matters.
Jesus said don't murder. ( Matt 5:21; )
Jesus said don't call anyone a fool or a good for nothing ( Matt 5:22; )
Jesus said commit adultery (Matt 5:27
Jesus said don't even lust after a married woman ( Matt 5:28; )
Jesus said don't get divorced for any reason except unfaithfulness ( Matt 5:31-32; )
Jesus said don't make false vows or false promises ( Matt 5:33-37; )
Jesus said love your neighbors and your enemies ( Matt 5:43-44; Matt 19:19; )
Jesus said forgive others of the wrongs they have done against you, or else God won't forgive you of the wrongs you do ( Matt 6:14-15; )
Jesus said bear good fruit ( Matt 7:17-20; )
Jesus said honor your father and mother ( Matt 15:4; )
Jesus said don't steal or lie ( Mark 10:19; )
There are many other things Jesus said to do and not to do. But I think this list is sufficient.
Disobedience to God is sin. Jesus is God. Disobedience to Jesus is disobedience to God.
We can call something a sin or not a sin all we want to. It doesn't matter what we call it. We aren't the ones who define what a sin is or isn't.
hi @Barny looks like the thread progresses with a few more interesting takes on the subject.
I wrote an answer but the system went astray and without pulling everything to bits and trying to understand what happened, I need to accept that it did.
amazing stuff, internet and computers and satellites and wireless and then add a brain a finger or two and maybe even a seat.
none of it should really happen or work or hold together but it does
my reply is below but I will add a couple of things first. (I saved my reply although I wasn't technically able to - you might see in my reply why I am telling you this, it is in the part about Job - you might not - which is a lot to do with what I am saying, not that you might not but that we can see some things easily and it is with such persuasion of faith in what we can grasp that we must be genuine, and in so doing be acceptable to the One we discuss - that's right, nearly forgot, we are discussing the Lord here but we easily forget that as we dissect Him and try to to put inadequate english words to what we can see)
ever worked with metals? tempering is something that needs to be adhered to according to the laws of tempering and then you must add to that a correct balance of metals - and then you need to add proper craftsmanship to finish it off - why - because if you want a sword that is durable at all times for all purposes you might use it for, it must be made in perfect accordance with the laws that govern it
same as the wind - does it blow or does it suck?
what about having eyes or ears - they see or hear not? why? how? but...
the reason I am saying all this is because we tend to forget the simple fact that our language/tongue is first foreign to the whole Gospel and second it is of this world or carnal
1Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
and while we can throw Scriptures around we really need to step back a bit like being sanctified or set apart from it all and hear the Gospel as it is and not in bits like my PC nearly was!
If we find we have it all sorted, this antimoaningandisms stuff, then what? Do we live better or worse or do we think more or less of what we do or what others do? are we more or less saved? Is Jesus any more or less Lord to be given all the glory and praise?
you are correct in what you say and so is B-A-C.
how can it be?
because we see the truthful parts and instead of marveling at what the Lord has shown us of Himself and His workings we run around with the bits we have telling everyone that we can see it but we tend to forget that what we see is a bit and not the One Who we ought to be focused on.
read on - and remember that when in the boat, we should worship the One who said, Peace be still, the One Who walked on the windy sea, the One Who said let down your nets
Noah built a boat - if it was us, what would we do if all this disputing and reasoning is any indication?
Job, Solomon and Jesus to the Scribes, LAWyers, Pharisees, Sadducees, Priests and all the sects (sections) in between - and the occasional Samaritan WOMAN and ROMAN centurion etc etc and perhaps even to US?
here it is:
hi @Barny,
how are you doing? Thanks for asking the bits you did, I will try to answer but don't get upset, please, if I don't get what I am saying across first time.
My post you referred to doesn't make any claims about me except an inclusion to the degree it does that I am in the same boat or two as you
boat one: planet earth
boat two: in Christ (or at least that is where we either profess to be or would like to be or should be - I'll explain - )
first boat one: we are like Job, if you would recall him and his friends yappering all about God this, God that, and did you know, what do you know, this is the way it is, that is the way it is, etc, etc - remember?
OK - Who said to Job, (paraphrased) shove a sock in it, mate! ?
Barny, we all tend to go like that in our great debates and if you look again, you might see that that is what I was saying.
I encouraged our brother B-A-C to continue his efforts in rightly dividing the truth as he does so much here, putting a lot of time and effort into putting forward studies for you me and all to get into if we want to and I notice he never forces anyone or tends to get narky at others, so I encouraged him in this.
I did not mention any agreeing or my doctrinal ideology or any such thing, so I'd like to add this disclaimer before you think more about what I said than I did.
How easy it is to cackle on like a bunch of hens that all laid the best egg. We flutter around in futile attempts to be more than we often are and this is so often no different than all the worldly foul, so why not let is all stop for a minute and see how silly we all look at times.
We all want to think we know best and if not, we all want to know best for ourselves and maybe for others too, but there is a little something that tends to get bloated from time to time, and usually at new found ideas or concepts, because we all tend to sway the direction of leaning too much on what others think and we all want to hold onto our mind's play so that we don't discover anything too far away from us that would either make us look silly or that we ourselves might get confused with, so we cluck around. and if you have ever kept hens, you'll know that the next day it is the same thing - all declaring that they have the best egg!
where was we?
(a www thing!)
boat two:
where are we - that worked out well! - where are we ? where were we ? where will we be?
In Christ?
if so, then we would be at peace, yes? no disputing, no differences, no division - so the question has to be put - In Christ, yes?
Too many words can smother the simple unity and make it even worse than a world style boat where everyone thinks and does as they will, no real 'until death' sort of unity - except for some groups and most of them put the claimers of Christs name to shame especially as they reject Him
.
How? By their unity and bond and faithfulness to their 'creed' be it colors or religion. all the same though.
So are we in Christ?
what has all this to do with this important discussion about a word that most have never heard of let alone know what it means? I don't don a scholars cap in pretense of new found wisdom and universal grasp on it all, but, if it helps, there is a Greek man who lives nearby, he is smaller than me, so I can honestly say I know a little Greek.
How far do all the learned here go in exegesis and open thorough studies of language and culture and history etc?
Probably not many go too deeply, if they are like most people in the world, yet, we profess to be captains at the helm in our endeavors to prove the wind to be blowing in the wrong direction.
speaking of wind - this is getting long-winded - but then again, so is the thread, back and forth across the seas
before we continue - back to Christ, those in the boat, but a pseudo-boat or for the technical, an anti-boat, or even a sail boat or speed boat, no, the boat, IN Christ, are ONE in Him, not several, and that is a big clue to what the most want to understand here and elsewhere.
SO now I better get to your other questions.
before I do, please try not presume anything about me. It will save me writing long notes like the above.
if you go here :
http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/44659-saint-sinner.html#post219987
there is a little insight to your question.
Don't rush it.
your question about sanctification: do we go into sanctification here or elsewhere?
there is a great big trend to use words and notions as everyone else does yet most of us never really stop for too long to look at what we are saying or repeating or even if we can explain it in layman's terms and then we even use words like swords and cut off peoples ears so they never get to hear it as it is.
it's good that there is only one Sword and only One Word.
imagine everyone safely on a boat and on their way to paradise, fighting with great big swords they can't even handle properly and what a tragic sight it would be.
"Regarding the law/10 commandments that B-A-C argues we" quote unquote
I won't go there as I am not going to push anyone in the water - too many sharks as it is!
How about this, Jesus confirmed what was given to Abram or was it Abraham.
The message had to be taken to the world by a people of another tongue as prophecy said
who where why what do the 10 commandments we call them fit in to all that?
I thought it was more than ten but suppose we better not go there just yet - but if you want, have a look, I'm sure there are more than ten in that list but somehow everyone says the Ten Commandments as if that is the whole truth and nothing but the truth and yet those words in that compilation, the ten commandments, isn't even in Scripture, so here we are disputing over poor old Moses as the law often gets called, struggling to understand each other , using words and phrases that are not scriptural to prove our position on Scriptures.
mescratchumhead, howaboutyou?
let me know if this helps any Barny
be encouraged in what you have and keep on studying and writing
in Christ
(I am going to write something, Lord be willing, on - "God in a Box (God forbid!)"
Last edited:
NetChaplain
Active
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2012
- Messages
- 1,490
Thanks for your fellowship James. If this were horse-shoes you would have at least one leaner. Please allow me to use John Gill's comment: "Though this commandment, as to the matter of it, is the same with that of Moses, Leviticus 19:18; yet it takes in more, and "new" objects; since by "neighbour" there, seems to be meant "the children of their people," the Jews; and so they understood it only of their countrymen, and of proselytes at furthest, whereas this reaches to any "other" person; see Romans 13:8; and as the measure, as well as the motive is new, for it is not now "as thy self," but "as I (Christ) have loved you."
I believe "as I have loved you" being unconditional includes forgiveness regardless.
Thanks again.
Strange how you have taken what I have said and twisted it. I have spoken only of righteousness by faith and spoke against the works of the law, but you cannot see this. What I have said is supported by scripture but your interpretation of what I said is not.
- Status
