Contemporary Judaizers

[RJ]

[/LIST]

I don't know where the disagreement is, since the position of my previous post (and all other of my posts) is what I've held to all along on this matter. There are some here though that do believe all of God's law no longer exists or is no longer in effect, as they are wrongly taught all the law died with Christ. Well, not all of it did.



[/LIST]

I agree with Apostle Paul's explanation of the matter, which is further understood by what he taught on the same in Galatians 5:13-25. IF we walk by The Spirit and not by our flesh. Can we as believers mess up at times with walking by our flesh? Yes. When that happens we place our self back in bondage to the law, because that's what governs sin. Since none of us can be perfect, it's possible to go into that condition IF we allow it with walking by our flesh instead of The Holy Spirit. Note Paul's warning of Gal.5:17 below.

Gal 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
(KJV)

There's more involved than just saying the law is only for the un-believer. Leaving it just at that would be like saying the law is dead forever for a believer even if the believer falls away to walk by their flesh. That interpretation of those Scriptures doesn't work, it throws away the IF condition Apostle Paul stated. It would also throw away the need for repentance to Christ of future sins we may commit. So this area is where we apparently disagree.




And by 'fulfilling' He did what? Destroyed it? God forbid, no. He gave the Spirit of His law, going into greater detail of how it is applied which is much stronger than even how the Pharisees were trying to to follow it.

Matt 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(KJV)

Why would He say that last part, "except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees..."? It's because they taught to follow God's law, but they didn't follow it themselves, even excused themselves from it to follow their own traditions instead.

Matt 23:1-7
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to His disciples,
2 Saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
(KJV)

There's more involved than just saying the law is only for the un-believer. Leaving it just at that would be like saying the law is dead forever for a believer even if the believer falls away to walk by their flesh. That interpretation of those Scriptures doesn't work, it throws away the IF condition Apostle Paul stated. It would also throw away the need for repentance to Christ of future sins we may commit. So this area is where we apparently disagree.
We are not there yet but we are getting close.

• 1 Timothy 1:8-10 This says it is for the un-believer. Please show me scripture that contradicts 1 Timothy or supports your "more involved" statement
• I have said repeatedly that all the laws are a great guideline. But you seem to, again, state that the law is still necessary for salvation! That is a false doctrine that says just believing the Gospel is insufficient to save. That is a "Lorship Salvation" or a works salvation.
• I believe in the gospel that says 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.... it says nothing about the law....Do you believe in this gopel that saves?

 

[brakelite]

1 John 3
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I agree with RJ's take on this...God is referring to habitual sin, the lifestyle of sin...a Christian can sin, and some more often than others, although I firmly believe it is possible not to. Many times I have found it necessary to fall at the feet of my Saviour and repent and weep for my selfishness that has caused me over my lifetime no end of trouble. Ego, pride, self, all have led me to sin in some way or other...but like Paul in Romans 7 I thank God for His power and grace to deliver....I can confidently and joyfully and gratefully say that I am completely free from every habitual sin. No addictions, no habits, no continuing problems that I need to daily re-confess over and over again.


Following up to my previous post on love and the law ....here are some more scripture connecting the two....

".....Love is the fulfilling of the law". Romans 13:10

1 John 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 ¶ And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.......
......1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.......


DHC, you have often opined that the covenants of the Bible are separate and that Gentiles are only bound by the new. Please find below an excerpt from an article on the covenants which I believe is quite enlightening.

"The gospel and law belong together. In their Anchor Bible Dictionary article on the covenant, George Mendenhall and Gary Herion refer to the Ancient Near Eastern suzerainty treaties (as in ancient Hittite culture), which include a prologue stating what the Sovereign had done for a vassal, and the “reciprocity” of the vassal in grateful obedience to some stipulations. Then a little later they point out the following about the Ten Commandments:

“The Ten Words are not commands, nor are they couched in command (i.e., imperative) language. They are simple future indicative verbs that indicate the future action that is the expected consequence of the preceding prologue: ‘I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt . . . (and therefore) you will have no other gods before me.’”......."

(DHC, I have often said that the commandments are in fact promises of God to empower us to obey. 'You will not commit adultery 'etc... And why won't I commit adultery? Because I am in a saving relationship with Jesus...I am abiding in the vine...His Holy Spirit dwells within me and I find it offensive and distasteful to even contemplate adultery. That loving relationship fulfills the law. And this excerpt reflects this. And not just under the new covenant, but it was so under the old as well!)

....."Sinai was not a contract but a covenant. It was not an external agreement but a relationship. Far from being a formal document (with potential to legalism), Sinai was a covenant of love (which is true of God’s everlasting covenant in its unfolding through various covenants). We would expect this from a God of love (1 John 4:8). God invited His people, weary and worn from Egyptian slavery, to come to Him in just as warm and loving embrace as Christ’s later invitation: “‘Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest’” (Matt. 11:28). He offered them the same relationship in the Sinai covenant as He offers in the gospel. For in both God longs to be their God (with all that brings) and for them to be His special, precious people “‘who love me and keep my commandments’” (Ex. 20:6). To disconnect the law at Sinai from the deliverance in the Red Sea overlooks the introduction to the Ten Commandments, in which covenant God says He delivered them through the Red Sea (Ex. 20:1, 2).
The gospel was present in the Old Testament. That’s why the great heroes of faith are recorded in Hebrews 11. They had a faith-heart relationship with Christ rather than a works orientation with the law. They had discernment, because “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for” (Heb. 11:1, 2). These persons of faith included all the prophets (vs. 32). This spiritual heart-relationship with God was available to Israel during its desert wandering. " (excerpt from God's Everlasting Covenant by Norman Gulley.) I can PM a link to full article to anyone interested.

So to claim that those who believe obedience to God's commandments are automatically 'judaisers' or 'legalists' is missing the whole purpose of the covenant.

The reason Jesus died...the reason God brought the Israelites out of Egypt...the reason God brings people out from under the bondage of sin...

is not to free them from their obligation to obey His commandments, but to empower them to obey His commandments....

through faith in His promises, all ten of them.

 

[brakelite]

I have said repeatedly that all the laws are a great guideline.

A great guideline to what purpose RJ?

 

[eddieb]

There will always exist a difference in understanding concerning who Israel is (Abraham's posterity only, or all in Christ), thus, there will always be a difference in belief's concerning many Israel/Church related Bible doctrine, esp. concerning eschatology.

There is really no need for differences in belief if we stand on Gods word, ephesians 2:11-22

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

to me this reads plainly the two are separate but Christ joined the two together.

 

[RJ]

A great guideline to what purpose RJ?

I thought that would be obvious brakelite. Like the 10 commandments, a great standard to try and live by.

 

[DHC]

I agree with RJ's take on this...God is referring to habitual sin, the lifestyle of sin...a Christian can sin, and some more often than others, although I firmly believe it is possible not to. Many times I have found it necessary to fall at the feet of my Saviour and repent and weep for my selfishness that has caused me over my lifetime no end of trouble. Ego, pride, self, all have led me to sin in some way or other...but like Paul in Romans 7 I thank God for His power and grace to deliver....I can confidently and joyfully and gratefully say that I am completely free from every habitual sin. No addictions, no habits, no continuing problems that I need to daily re-confess over and over again.


Following up to my previous post on love and the law ....here are some more scripture connecting the two....

".....Love is the fulfilling of the law". Romans 13:10

1 John 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 ¶ And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.......
......1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.......


DHC, you have often opined that the covenants of the Bible are separate and that Gentiles are only bound by the new. Please find below an excerpt from an article on the covenants which I believe is quite enlightening.

"The gospel and law belong together. In their Anchor Bible Dictionary article on the covenant, George Mendenhall and Gary Herion refer to the Ancient Near Eastern suzerainty treaties (as in ancient Hittite culture), which include a prologue stating what the Sovereign had done for a vassal, and the “reciprocity” of the vassal in grateful obedience to some stipulations. Then a little later they point out the following about the Ten Commandments:

“The Ten Words are not commands, nor are they couched in command (i.e., imperative) language. They are simple future indicative verbs that indicate the future action that is the expected consequence of the preceding prologue: ‘I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt . . . (and therefore) you will have no other gods before me.’”......."

(DHC, I have often said that the commandments are in fact promises of God to empower us to obey. 'You will not commit adultery 'etc... And why won't I commit adultery? Because I am in a saving relationship with Jesus...I am abiding in the vine...His Holy Spirit dwells within me and I find it offensive and distasteful to even contemplate adultery. That loving relationship fulfills the law. And this excerpt reflects this. And not just under the new covenant, but it was so under the old as well!)

....."Sinai was not a contract but a covenant. It was not an external agreement but a relationship. Far from being a formal document (with potential to legalism), Sinai was a covenant of love (which is true of God’s everlasting covenant in its unfolding through various covenants). We would expect this from a God of love (1 John 4:8). God invited His people, weary and worn from Egyptian slavery, to come to Him in just as warm and loving embrace as Christ’s later invitation: “‘Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest’” (Matt. 11:28). He offered them the same relationship in the Sinai covenant as He offers in the gospel. For in both God longs to be their God (with all that brings) and for them to be His special, precious people “‘who love me and keep my commandments’” (Ex. 20:6). To disconnect the law at Sinai from the deliverance in the Red Sea overlooks the introduction to the Ten Commandments, in which covenant God says He delivered them through the Red Sea (Ex. 20:1, 2).
The gospel was present in the Old Testament. That’s why the great heroes of faith are recorded in Hebrews 11. They had a faith-heart relationship with Christ rather than a works orientation with the law. They had discernment, because “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for” (Heb. 11:1, 2). These persons of faith included all the prophets (vs. 32). This spiritual heart-relationship with God was available to Israel during its desert wandering. " (excerpt from God's Everlasting Covenant by Norman Gulley.) I can PM a link to full article to anyone interested.

So to claim that those who believe obedience to God's commandments are automatically 'judaisers' or 'legalists' is missing the whole purpose of the covenant.

The reason Jesus died...the reason God brought the Israelites out of Egypt...the reason God brings people out from under the bondage of sin...

is not to free them from their obligation to obey His commandments, but to empower them to obey His commandments....

through faith in His promises, all ten of them.

Hello Brakelite.

DHC, you have often opined that the covenants of the Bible are separate and that Gentiles are only bound by the new. Please find below an excerpt from an article on the covenants which I believe is quite enlightening.

Yes Brakelite, I do make a fuss about the covenants because the Bible uses the term repeatedly.
God speaks to mankind within the framework of specific covenants, I am happy to see that you
are recognising these partitions within the scripture.

“The Ten Words are not commands, nor are they couched in command (i.e., imperative) language. They are simple future indicative verbs that indicate the future action that is the expected consequence of the preceding prologue: ‘I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt . . . (and therefore) you will have no other gods before me.’”......."

Here we differ in the strongest way Brakelite. The covenant that God established at Mt Sinai
with Israel was a terrifying covenant. Lightening and thunder, the Israelites could not bear to listen
to God speaking, they were filled with dread. Rightly so, for the Israelite nation was eventually
demolished under the judgement of God. Israel was hardened to the Gospel itself and became
the greatest enemies of the apostles. One would never sign up to the old covenant if one knew
what the covenant implied.

(DHC, I have often said that the commandments are in fact promises of God to empower us to obey.
'You will not commit adultery 'etc... And why won't I commit adultery? Because I am in a saving relationship
with Jesus...I am abiding in the vine...His Holy Spirit dwells within me and I find it offensive and distasteful
to even contemplate adultery. That loving relationship fulfills the law. And this excerpt reflects this. And not
just under the new covenant, but it was so under the old as well!)

Commandments are not promises and they do not empower obedience. Rather the opposite Brakelite,
the commandments condemn, they tell you in no uncertain terms what your problem really is.
Commandments bring the knowledge of sin but provide no escape from the stranglehold of sin.
You may try not to steal but you will only discover no matter how hard you try you will fail.

....."Sinai was not a contract but a covenant. It was not an external agreement but a relationship.
Far from being a formal document (with potential to legalism),

Mt Sinai was a legal contract between physical Israel and God. The proclamation by God of
the commandments was legislation, Brakelite. As soon as God announced the terms of the
agreement and the Israelites consented, law came into existence. That is what 'law' means
Brakelite, ratified legislation! Commandments are law, law is legislation, law is enforced.
It was a formal and legal agreement between God and the nation of Israel. To say otherwise
is just not the truth Brakelite. A covenant is a legal agreement.


A commandment is precisely a law, there is no seperating the terminology. Death was the
penalty, the soul that sins will die under the law. I do disagree that the old covenant was
not a formal document. What the old covenant was above everything else was a divine
legal agreement between Israel and God. Written law is precisely what the old covenant
was Brakelite, from the start to the finish is pure legal documentation.

God invited His people, weary and worn from Egyptian slavery, to come to Him in just as warm and
loving embrace as Christ’s later invitation: “‘Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and
I will give you rest’” (Matt 11:28).

The scripture states the contrary Brakelite, God slaughtered the Israelites in the desert.
God delivered the law which could not be obeyed even by the most zealous person. The
whole purpose of the law was to expose sin, without the law we are oblivious to our condition.
Anybody who meditated on the law would quickly utter 'blessed is the man whose sin God
will not take into account'. Abraham was reckoned righteous before circumcision and before
the law came into being. Abraham was granted righteousness by God and not by what he did.


Christ's invitation was to those who were weary of their own flesh and their inability to obey
the law. Do you pray like this Brakelite, "God why can't everyone just be like me! I fast twice
a week, tithe regularly, never miss church on Saturday. I have no addictions that I am aware
of and I just love the ten commandments." Or is your prayer like this, "God forgive me for I
am a sinner." One person can really see what the problem is within. Whereas the other is blind
to the true state of their flesh. We only have the righteousness of Christ and we are living in a
state of forgiveness.

He offered them the same relationship in the Sinai covenant as He offers in the gospel. For in both
God longs to be their God (with all that brings) and for them to be His special, precious people “‘who
love me and keep my commandments’” (Ex 20:6). To disconnect the law at Sinai from the deliverance
in the Red Sea overlooks the introduction to the Ten Commandments, in which covenant God says
He delivered them through the Red Sea (Ex 20:1, 2).

Negative Brakelite, the New Covenant is free and by Grace, the Old Covenant was oppressive
slavery with no deliverance. Yes, God did deliver Israel from Egyptian slavery but delivered
them into legal bondage. God told Moses that they would not obey Him before God gave
the Israelites the law. God already knew of course that the nation of Israel would fail.
God has given not only Israel over to disobedience but all of mankind. Israel stands as a
testimony to the utter futility of the flesh against the power of sin. This is one of the great
lessons of the law, we are not able to obey the law. Any attempt to obey written law is a
work of the flesh, you can only bear the fruit of the spirit. All is from above and is only
available through the pure and simple devotion to Jesus Christ.

The gospel was present in the Old Testament.

Negative again Brakelite, the 'promise' of the Gospel was evident in the law and the prophets.
It was a future event that promised deliverance, one that God would furnish for mankind.
That is why the folk in the old testament looked forward to the promise as they did not
have the reality of the Gospel insitu. “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain
of what we do not see." They hoped that God would deliver them as they had not experienced
the reality of the Gospel. They expected the messiah to arrive at sometime in the future.

 

[brakelite]

@DHC. Hi. David. Read again my post on the relationship between law and love. You write as if the law is an enemy to be feared and shunned at all cost. What you absolutely fail to grasp is the faith aspect. Yes, you are correct that in the flesh, Israel, and ourselves, could not and cannot obey the law. For those in the flesh, the law condemns.
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9
"3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:2,3.
Christ did not condemn the law DHC, but condemned sin. Nailed the flesh to the cross, not the law. For you to claim so boldly that God freed Israel from slavery in Egypt to bring them into greater bondage to His laws borders on blasphemy. God's laws are a reflection of His righteous character of love.

Laws are only a bondage DHC to them who have no desire to obey them. The speeding driver with the Ferrari is bound by the laws of the road that says he must drive under a 50 mph limit. He hates that law. Yet it is in place because people have died as a direct result of exceeding that 50 mph limit. The law is placed there to save lives, not endanger them. So also is it with God's laws. They are in place to safeguard us against sin. It is the sin that kills, and the law is that which warns us of the danger of it. God gave the law out of love, to claim otherwise is an indictment on His character.
Your response comes from a perspective lacking in faith. Lots of presumption, but no faith. Jesus has already proven that a human being in conjunction with the Divine can obey all of God's commandments. Peter said that we have great and precious promises by which we may become partakers of the divine nature. It takes faith though to receive the benefits of these promises. And that is your problem DHC. You have trouble embracing God's commandments because you don't believe God has the power to change your life sufficiently for you to keep them. You are looking at God's law from an entirely fleshly perspective. It is you who deny the law who is walking in the flesh and not in the Spirit. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. But for them who desire to obey, who see in that law God's love and enduring care and faithfulness, and they by the grace of God trust wholly in Him to accomplish His purpose,
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, (not free from the law DHC) and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[brakelite]

I thought that would be obvious brakelite. Like the 10 commandments, a great standard to try and live by.

You have the same problem then as DHC. By trying to live by the law you are trusting in your own strength to obey, and that is precisely why you fail. No wonder you believe it is impossible to obey, you aren't living by faith, nor walking in the Spirit. Remember the scripture RJ? The just shall live by his faith?

 

[RJ]

You have the same problem then as DHC. By trying to live by the law you are trusting in your own strength to obey, and that is precisely why you fail. No wonder you believe it is impossible to obey, you aren't living by faith, nor walking in the Spirit. Remember the scripture RJ? The just shall live by his faith?

• O.K. brakelite, I know what you say but you still don't answer my question directly.
• So, you live by faith and you are "walking in the Spirit"...good! And you say I fail, I agree that I fail the law but disagree that I do not walk in the spirit.
• So, I fail in the law and you don't. You don't try to live by the law, you do live by the law.
• Yes, yes, yes..the just are to live by his faith but doesn't say or mean to do so perfectly. I know the one in you is perfect but you brakelite are not perfect, not yet!
• My question to you again: Do you, braklite, live by the law perfectly, meaning with out mistake or flaw in any of the law's requirements? Please a simple yes or no?....one simple question, one simple answer.
• If you insist on not answering the above question directly, then maybe you can answer this one: Are you brakelite, no longer capable of sin? You do everything with out flaw and never mess up?

 

[NoHype]

We are not there yet but we are getting close.

• 1 Timothy 1:8-10 This says it is for the un-believer. Please show me scripture that contradicts 1 Timothy or supports your "more involved" statement

I've already shown you, because that is not the only Scripture where Apostle Paul spoke of the matter. So why would anyone want to treat that sole 1 Timothy 1:8-10 Scripture as if it stands off by itself when Paul gave other details in Scripture like Galatians 5? That line of questioning is what the scribes and Pharisees were famous for with trying to trap our Lord Jesus with using a sole Scripture to try and squeeze Him into a corner, omitting the rest of God's Holy Writ (in this case other writings by Apostle Paul).

• I have said repeatedly that all the laws are a great guideline. But you seem to, again, state that the law is still necessary for salvation! That is a false doctrine that says just believing the Gospel is insufficient to save. That is a "Lorship Salvation" or a works salvation.

And one should be careful against bearing false witness, for nowhere have I written any such idea that we are saved by following God's laws. If you think I have, then the burden proof is upon you.

• I believe in the gospel that says 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.... it says nothing about the law....Do you believe in this gopel that saves?

1 Cor 15:1-2
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
(KJV)

If you're certain as to what you read from that Scripture, explain to us what those passages in bold mean from brother Paul. Afterall, he declares those things first before giving the Testimony of Christ's saving grace through His cross in the next two verses.

It 'seems', you are in favor of skipping what's in those first two verses by Paul to instead immediately jump to the subject of the 3rd and 4th verses about belief on Christ's death and resurrection.

 

[brakelite]

• O.K. brakelite, I know what you say but you still don't answer my question directly.
• So, you live by faith and you are "walking in the Spirit"...good! And you say I fail, I agree that I fail the law but disagree that I do not walk in the spirit.

Why do you fail RJ? Is the law too tough? Is God unfair to make laws so difficult to obey? Is man's wickedness too great? Is the power of the Holy Spirit too weak? Is it because you don't recognize the law for what it represents and therefore don't surrender yourself to God sufficiently to enable Him to work in you His righteousness? Or is it so simple as that because you don't believe obedience to all God's commandments is necessary, therefore God doesn't do for you what you don't desire?

• So, I fail in the law and you don't. You don't try to live by the law, you do live by the law.

RJ, We both fail from time to time. But the fact we fail doesn't alter the fact that God's law is still a law that obligates all to obedience. The fact we fail doesn't mean failure is compulsory, or even unavoidable. It means we haven't yet matured sufficiently. And our relative performance or lack thereof is not what our discussion is really all about. In fact, our performance or lack thereof doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to our ultimate salvation either. But our heart attitude to obedience to God's requirements makes a huge difference. The question you should be asking RJ is not...are you perfect....BUT, are you willing to be perfected. Most in this discussion are firmly of the belief that it is impossible to obey all God's commandments. Therefore they don't want to, they aren't willing to obey. They see perfection unattainable and out of reach, therefore do not surrender their lives to that end. It is that lack of faith in the power of God that condemns them, for whatever is not of faith is sin. That attitude RJ does affect your salvation. Also, I neither try to live by the law, nor do I live by the law. I live by faith in the Son of God who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all I ask or think. That includes infusing me with His righteousness, His love, that empowers me to live in harmony with His laws. By faith RJ, in grace, in His promises, in His love, in His power to deliver me from every sin. He hasn't finished with me yet however. There is much work to be done. The more I learn of the depths of His character, the more I realize how much further I must travel and the more I realize how much more I need to sacrifice self that He may live in me.

• Yes, yes, yes..the just are to live by his faith but doesn't say or mean to do so perfectly. I know the one in you is perfect but you brakelite are not perfect, not yet!

RJ, God does demand perfection.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect


2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


Jesus showed and proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the union of the human with the divine makes it possible to live without sin...in this life.

• My question to you again: Do you, braklite, live by the law perfectly, meaning with out mistake or flaw in any of the law's requirements? Please a simple yes or no?....one simple question, one simple answer.
• If you insist on not answering the above question directly, then maybe you can answer this one: Are you brakelite, no longer capable of sin? You do everything with out flaw and never mess up?

Answered above.

 

[NoHype]

These kind of debates of God's Grace vs. following His laws will never produce fruit in Christ Jesus simply because they are two distinct and separate things. It's like trying to compare water with rocks.

The simplicity of God's Word is that we can ONLY be saved by His Grace through Faith on His Son's Blood shed upon the cross, and then we will produce fruit of good works from that Faith which will always be in accordance with His laws written in our hearts and minds by The Holy Spirit (Heb.10; Gal.5; Titus 3:1-14; Titus 2:14; Philippians 1:11; Col. 1:10).

And our good 'works' in Christ Jesus will naturally... come by following His commandments via The Holy Spirit, especially by loving one another as ourself as He and His Apostles said.

And then, those 'works' for Christ is what your righteous clothing in Heaven will be made up of, for our works do follow us... to Heaven (Rev.14:13).

So even though we can only be saved by God's Grace through His Son, which is a free gift none of us could ever earn, that still operates in conjunction with our Faith to do good works for Him.

But one who has Faith only with no good works to back it up shows what? It shows they will likely be in their underwear walking around in Heaven, spiritually naked and in shame.

And one who claims to have Faith but goes back to their old ways of sin disregarding the new relationship with Christ and paying no attention to His commandments shows what? It shows they have believed in vain, like Paul showed:

1 Cor 15:1-2
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
(KJV)

2 Cor 6:1
1 We then, as workers together with Him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
(KJV)

 

[RJ]

Why do you fail RJ? Is the law too tough? Is God unfair to make laws so difficult to obey? Is man's wickedness too great? Is the power of the Holy Spirit too weak? Is it because you don't recognize the law for what it represents and therefore don't surrender yourself to God sufficiently to enable Him to work in you His righteousness? Or is it so simple as that because you don't believe obedience to all God's commandments is necessary, therefore God doesn't do for you what you don't desire?RJ, We both fail from time to time. But the fact we fail doesn't alter the fact that God's law is still a law that obligates all to obedience. The fact we fail doesn't mean failure is compulsory, or even unavoidable. It means we haven't yet matured sufficiently. And our relative performance or lack thereof is not what our discussion is really all about. In fact, our performance or lack thereof doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to our ultimate salvation either. But our heart attitude to obedience to God's requirements makes a huge difference. The question you should be asking RJ is not...are you perfect....BUT, are you willing to be perfected. Most in this discussion are firmly of the belief that it is impossible to obey all God's commandments. Therefore they don't want to, they aren't willing to obey. They see perfection unattainable and out of reach, therefore do not surrender their lives to that end. It is that lack of faith in the power of God that condemns them, for whatever is not of faith is sin. That attitude RJ does affect your salvation. Also, I neither try to live by the law, nor do I live by the law. I live by faith in the Son of God who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all I ask or think. That includes infusing me with His righteousness, His love, that empowers me to live in harmony with His laws. By faith RJ, in grace, in His promises, in His love, in His power to deliver me from every sin. He hasn't finished with me yet however. There is much work to be done. The more I learn of the depths of His character, the more I realize how much further I must travel and the more I realize how much more I need to sacrifice self that He may live in me.

RJ, God does demand perfection.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect


2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


Jesus showed and proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the union of the human with the divine makes it possible to live without sin...in this life. Answered above.

• O.K. thank you, you are perfect, you do follow all of God's laws perfectly...congratulations you are as perfect as our Lord already!
• B.T.W, why don't you look at the explanation that T.J. offers for you quoted verse : Matthew 5:48...it says, and I quote: "It is the duty of Christians to desire, and aim at, and press towards perfection in grace and holiness. And therein we must study to conform ourselves to the example of our heavenly Father, "... You use this verse to support your doctrine but T.J. uses an explanation that is totally opposite and, in fact, supports what I have been trying to tell others all this time.:..we must aim, desire and press towards perfection and must study to conform. Note: it says nothing about you must be perfect or you must conform.....it says you must try!

 

[RJ]

I've already shown you, because that is not the only Scripture where Apostle Paul spoke of the matter. So why would anyone want to treat that sole 1 Timothy 1:8-10 Scripture as if it stands off by itself when Paul gave other details in Scripture like Galatians 5? That line of questioning is what the scribes and Pharisees were famous for with trying to trap our Lord Jesus with using a sole Scripture to try and squeeze Him into a corner, omitting the rest of God's Holy Writ (in this case other writings by Apostle Paul).




And one should be careful against bearing false witness, for nowhere have I written any such idea that we are saved by following God's laws. If you think I have, then the burden proof is upon you.





1 Cor 15:1-2
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
(KJV)

If you're certain as to what you read from that Scripture, explain to us what those passages in bold mean from brother Paul. Afterall, he declares those things first before giving the Testimony of Christ's saving grace through His cross in the next two verses.

It 'seems', you are in favor of skipping what's in those first two verses by Paul to instead immediately jump to the subject of the 3rd and 4th verses about belief on Christ's death and resurrection.

There is so much here that really addresses nothing I have been saying, so I will stick with this one for the time being:

• 1 Cor 15:1-2
  1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
  2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
  (KJV)
  
  If you're certain as to what you read from that Scripture, explain to us what those passages in bold mean from brother Paul. Afterall, he declares those things first before giving the Testimony of Christ's saving grace through His cross in the next two verses.
  I am not sure why you don't understand this but the verses in bold: Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you - unless you believed in vain. .... Paul preached the gospel (the word) of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If a person takes that gospel, stands on it and holds fast to it, then they are saved. We believe in vain, unless we keep in the faith of the gospel that saves. If your belief is something other than this gospel, it will all be for naught, you will die in your sin!

 

[DHC]

Christ did not condemn the law DHC, but condemned sin. Nailed the flesh to the cross, not the law.

Hello Brakelite.

Slowly trying to understand your reply?

Christ did not condemn the law DHC, but condemned sin. Nailed the flesh to the cross, not the law.

You will need to explain to me what 'certificate of debt' and 'decrees' means in the following verse.

Because you said 'Christ... nailed the flesh to the cross'

Colossians 2
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us;
and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

[NoHype]

There is so much here that really addresses nothing I have been saying, so I will stick with this one for the time being:

• 1 Cor 15:1-2
  1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
  2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
  (KJV)
  
  If you're certain as to what you read from that Scripture, explain to us what those passages in bold mean from brother Paul. Afterall, he declares those things first before giving the Testimony of Christ's saving grace through His cross in the next two verses.
  I am not sure why you don't understand this but the verses in bold: Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you - unless you believed in vain. .... Paul preached the gospel (the word) of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If a person takes that gospel, stands on it and holds fast to it, then they are saved. We believe in vain, unless we keep in the faith of the gospel that saves. If your belief is something other than this gospel, it will all be for naught, you will die in your sin!

Yes, the magic word IF... is there, isn't it?

That means it is possible for the believer to NOT hold to The Gospel they once heard and believed, and thus fall away from Christ Jesus and having believed in vain! That is my point, for we're now back to what I posted before...

Gal 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

And thus...

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
(KJV)

Paul was giving that same IF condition there in 1 Cor.15:2 also per that Galatians 5:16-18 idea.

 

[RJ]

Yes, the magic word IF... is there, isn't it?

That means it is possible for the believer to NOT hold to The Gospel they once heard and believed, and thus fall away from Christ Jesus and having believed in vain! That is my point, for we're now back to what I posted before...

Gal 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

And thus...

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
(KJV)

Paul was giving that same IF condition there in 1 Cor.15:2 also per that Galatians 5:16-18 idea.

• I said: If your belief is something other than this gospel, it will all be for naught, you will die in your sin! But, of course you ignore that!
• Yes if.....if you believe! You can't twist that to your liking to make it the believer that "falls away". That is definetly not what this scripture is remotely referring to!
• Anyway, were are back to ground zero and not edifying anyone. We, in fact, do disagree. You have your belief and I have mine...I'm done with this posting back and forth!

 

[NoHype]

• I said: If your belief is something other than this gospel, it will all be for naught, you will die in your sin! But, of course you ignore that!

But I have not ignored that point, but have been stressing it along from Paul.

What you seem to be ignoring is that a believer can indeed fall away from Christ IF... they allow it. And it's actually in various degrees because none of us can be perfect, but we have Christ and He told us to repent of future sin and take it to Him. By staying in the walk with Him by The Holy Spirit that is 'how' we are counted as perfect through Him, and thus not under the law anymore. But leave that and we place ourselves back into bondage of the law by walking according to the flesh.

Thus there is a need, and requirement for all believers on Christ Jesus to repent and ask Him forgiveness of future sins we may commit to stay in that Walk, as per 1 John 1.

It's becoming obvious that you really believe the OSAS doctrine of men that preaches a believer on Christ can never ever fall away from Him. That's not what God's Word teaches, and the OSAS doctrine is sinful road to follow because it promotes not checking ourselves nor repenting to Christ of future sins we may commit.

 

[RJ]

But I have not ignored that point, but have been stressing it along from Paul.

What you seem to be ignoring is that a believer can indeed fall away from Christ IF... they allow it. And it's actually in various degrees because none of us can be perfect, but we have Christ and He told us to repent of future sin and take it to Him. By staying in the walk with Him by The Holy Spirit that is 'how' we are counted as perfect through Him, and thus not under the law anymore. But leave that and we place ourselves back into bondage of the law by walking according to the flesh.

Thus there is a need, and requirement for all believers on Christ Jesus to repent and ask Him forgiveness of future sins we may commit to stay in that Walk, as per 1 John 1.

It's becoming obvious that you really believe the OSAS doctrine of men that preaches a believer on Christ can never ever fall away from Him. That's not what God's Word teaches, and the OSAS doctrine is sinful road to follow because it promotes not checking ourselves nor repenting to Christ of future sins we may commit.

• Alas, I am on a sinful road now, thank you for pointing that out to me!
• I have a repentant heart because the Holy Spirit chastise me daily and his blood washes me still.
• For your information,Jesus knows what is in my heart much better than you and me and my house will follow the Lord.
• That includes nothing this side of Hell can cause us to "fall way", absolutely nothing, for our God is much too perfect and powerfull for such a thing to happen.I am very sorry that you constantly live under the doubt that he can't and is not for you.

 

[brakelite]

Colossians 2
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us;
and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

KJV has 'handwriting of ordinances'. The TJ online version has 'handwriting of requirements'.

How many times have Christians gone back and forth over the interpretation of these verses? Some say its the decalogue, others Moses law, and yet others, both. I am not going to re-enter a debate on that. Been there done that, to no avail. If you are 100% certain that your understanding is truth, then you run with it and be content. God bless.