Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[Gracealone]

Again that is just speculation, and assumptions sister lol i do that myself with the book of revelation. I have assumptions too, but i try to make that clear when i teach.

I don't speak from assumptions, If I don't whole heartily believe what I say is truth, I don't speak at all.
With that settled, once for all, I'll try to explain further.

One other clarification...I am a King James Bible reader, and believer in the God it is a revelation of.

I'm not ready to go to the four beast yet, but there are several thoughts about them, and no real clear answer......Back to Revelation 4:1 The song that only the church can sing.....

Now that Ive said that Lets look at the different translations for the 24 elders and the four beast singing this song. Why the four beast? because they are singing this song too.

Very interesting, that might clarify one of the thoughts of who they are, that being the Apostles who wrote the gospels. They to are part of the church also.

These 24 elders and the four beast, are singing a song for the redeemed. There not singing a song of the redeemed. As the other more accurate translations will show you.

God bless sister

+My translation is the King James version, and I dont see that here.

Revelation 5:9 says; And they sung a new song saying, thou art worthy to take the book, and open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
And hast made us unto our God Kings, and Priest: and we shall reign on the earth.......this is the church.

And they are in Heaven at the time Jesus says, Come up here.

 

[letusgo27]

These other versions use the word them and they instead of us and we so this changes the interpretation of this. And it does it nicely because it makes more sense to say them, than us, if your an angelic creature.

These 24 elders and the four beast, are singing a song for the redeemed. There not singing a song of the redeemed. As the other more accurate translations will show you.

God bless sister

I beg to differ here friend.

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

the description here is of people who have been saved. eg white raiment and crowns (stephonos) meaning crown of victory. these both are examples of overcoming sin through Christ.

the 24 Elders can be nothing other than people redeemed from earth. when I don't know is it future no I don't think so but there are humans in heaven now like Moses Elijah Enoch and all those who were resurrected with Christ I would think these are the People mentioned here.

as for the Four beast if you read in Ezekiel he sees them twice first as beasts as mentioned in Rev then second as cherubim so there you have it they are cherubim.

Blessings to you all

 

[Gracealone]

as for the Four beast if you read in Ezekiel he sees them twice first as beasts as mentioned in Rev then second as cherubim so there you have it they are cherubim.
Blessings to you all

Where in Ezekiel are you quoting from?
I looked in my concordance, and I don't see Ezekiel mentioned under "beast".
I would like to read your scripture?
Maybe I chose the wrong key word?

We just recently talked about this in a study of Revelation, and our Pastor agreed there were several possibilities of who the beast mentioned here was.......no one truly knows for sure, and angels ,or cherubim was one of the ideas people lean to.. God knows, but for speculation sake , and because the beast was also singing the redeemed song, I would lean toward the beast representing the writers of the 4 gospels.
Mathew, Mark, luke and John.

Even the angels desire to look into our redemption, and can not, so how could they be singing the song of redemption?

The lion....( of the tribe of Judah), "Jesus"
The calf ,( servant of all)....Jesus
as a Man, (intelligence,) God with us...."Jesus"
like an eagle, (swiftness,) behold I come quickly...."Jesus"

This is yet future .
Revelation clarifies that in Rev.1:19
This verse is the key to Revelation:

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which are here after.
This is what Revelation is all about, the revealing of Jesus Christ.
From Revelation 4: it is still future, for the church is still here.

May Gods Holy Spirit give us insight into these wonderful truths of God, our coming King, Jesus

 

[Boanerges]

I am enjoying this conversation. I am not arguing just examining different sides of the same issue.

because.....at the point where John is caught up to an open door, the church is no longer mentioned in Revelation until we return with him toward the end of the tribulation.
I do not see how that leads to your conclusion of the tribulation saints not being the church nor that being the moment the Church is caught up.
John was told to come and see what must happen here after.......after the church dispensation, as he has just finished his last letter to the churches in chapter 3:
Chapter 4: John is told to come up here, where the 24 elders represent the church.
No one told John that what he saw was the end of any dispensation.That is an assumption unless there is a specific scripture to back it up.
Most people would say that the 24 are the 12 Patriarchs and the 12 Apostles
Revelation 19: we then see the multitude in heaven rejoicing and the marriage supper of the lamb, we are now his bride adorned in white linen....
These are certainly the Saints gone before us as to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
He, Jesus, then comes riding on a white horse with the armies from heaven, which we are part of.....read Revelation19:
This is just before the end of the tribulation, for right after this Satan is bound for a thousand years, and we rule and reign with him, for that thousand years.
WE have to be with him during the trib, in Heaven, to come back with him from Heaven.
Not necessarily- if we are caught up with Him at His return (shedding these mortal bodies)and will be with Him forever .It only makes sense that we would come back down with Him for He will be here from that moment until eternity.That and the fact that there are plenty of saints gone home before us.
Saints are mentioned, for many will turn to Christ during the tribulation time, but they are not the church.
Again there is no proof text so that remains an assumption.
The Church dispensation ended at the time of the rapture, or if you prefer, when we were caught up in the air, to be with him forever.
First of all the rapture will not happen until the end of the Tribulation as plainly demonstrated here:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When Jesus returns the second time, to earth, he will be riding on a white horse, as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

The Church is plainly not caught up until Christ returns:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Boanerges]

Of course, that is why we differ here, but when it is clear from the word of God, (and remember we are told scripture is not of private interpretation,) that is why we have to look at the whole picture, that there is a catching away, where we meet the Lord in the air, and we come again with him when he sets foot on the earth again, and when he says to encourage one another with these words, and that we are Not appointed unto wrath, and to escape the wrath to come, then these all need to fit in the picture somewhere, and not be discarded.
The pre-trib is where they fit perfectly.
That is definitely a matter of opinion and interpretation. Pre trib misses some key scripture, That fact that we could stand in those days and never know the wrath of God seems to be a key point being missed.
What we need is for us to let scripture interpret scripture, and that is where the pre-trib comes to its conclusion.
That is my point exactly- scripture does not line up with pre trib theology and we must re examine the Word to see that.
I asked Chad if there was a way to put the study of Revelation on the site, both views, but haven't heard yet.

I know what I have seen from line upon line teaching, and precept upon precept, and it all fits. Even the different trumpet's.
That's the way Gods truth is.......and it brought peace, and comfort.
That's the way my Lord is too.:friends: Love you guys, truly do!

PS: Boanerges, Where in the old Testament were the Saints ever called the church?
I cannot see it anywhere.
The church is first mentioned in Matthew16:18, and 51 times more up to Rev. 2:23, then not again until the tribulation is almost over in Revelation 22:16 where Jesus authenticates his commission .
There are the Old testament Saints, and the tribulation Saints, and in between we have the Church.
That has to have some significance, it is Gods word.
Now also, even those who are part of the church are called saints, but not the other way around.
The church is significant in a time period from Antioc, until the end of the age.....what age? The Church age. Matthew to Revelation 3:
It is not up to you or I to rtandomly assume that is the end of the Church age and there is not one scripture that says so.
Any mistakes here are mine, not Gods word.....Hubby calling me out of here. I think he's concerned I'm stuck to this chair! LOL

I have to go too , CYA later.

 

[Gracealone]

Well Sir, All I can say at this point,is God bless, for I am just as sure of the understanding God has given me, as you say you are, so until that day, when he call us home, I remain your friend, and sister ,in the Lord, and guess we had best change the subject.

WE will see soon enough the truth of Gods word.

See you on other threads , grace and peace to each here.

:handshake: Bye for now.

 

[Fellowservant]

I beg to differ here friend.

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

the description here is of people who have been saved. eg white raiment and crowns (stephonos) meaning crown of victory. these both are examples of overcoming sin through Christ.

the 24 Elders can be nothing other than people redeemed from earth. when I don't know is it future no I don't think so but there are humans in heaven now like Moses Elijah Enoch and all those who were resurrected with Christ I would think these are the People mentioned here.

as for the Four beast if you read in Ezekiel he sees them twice first as beasts as mentioned in Rev then second as cherubim so there you have it they are cherubim.

Blessings to you all

Amen i was getting too this, so we actually don't disagree, or differ, we need to look at all angles of this, and use all of scripture. And the book of revelation is going to be almost impossible to understand without using the prophets with it. As they seen some end time events as well (Ie Daniel).

John with Christ and his sent angel, elaborates and give us more revelation on all that the prophets spoke. As for the beast thing or cherubim, they are also called four living creatures.

Thats why i used the phrase i used, sorry for the confusion. And just 24 elders doesn't constitute a full redeemed Church. So this is why i think as well, that it may be as you said, Moses and the prophets, or some of the OT saints that were resurrected at the resurrection of Christ.

But not a full redeemed Church. Therefore i doubt this can be used for a rapture doctrine. It may be, but it may not be, hence the speculation i was referring too.

We also speculate about the twelve stars on the woman's head in rev 12. Some say it represents the twelve tribes of Israel, while others speculate it represents the twelve apostles. Some go even further and add Josephs dream here. The one with the moon and the stars bowing too him.

lol so who is right? like i said, a lot of this is just speculation and assumptions. Its not sound doctrine, so i stay away from teaching it as God given truth.

Although i have my own speculations or my own assumptions on it. Speculations and assumptions, are not sound doctrine, as you will agree, so it should not be thought as such.

God bless

 

[Boanerges]

Well Sir, All I can say at this point,is God bless, for I am just as sure of the understanding God has given me, as you say you are, so until that day, when he call us home, I remain your friend, and sister ,in the Lord, and guess we had best change the subject.

WE will see soon enough the truth of Gods word.

See you on other threads , grace and peace to each here.

:handshake: Bye for now.

Amen my friend, may God richly bless you today!

 

[DeeperStill]

I've read a few of the many posts in this thread, but i skipped over many because I have heard these arguments so many times that i can tell what will be said long before it's said.

so in short I will only state my personal view. There are definitely two comings. The first coming in the clouds when Jesus calls home his saints. This coming is imminent and without warning. It happens in the twinkling of an eye. Nobody knows the day, or hour of this snatching away of the bride of Christ.

If the snatching away were mid, or even post tribulation, then it would not be imminent any longer. There would be clear indication when it was going to happen and that contradicts Gods word.

The second of the two comings is when Jesus the Messiah returns and sets his feet down upon the mount. His physical presence will be seen by all.

I believe wisdom will prove this out, that from the signing of the peace treaty with Israel there will be exactly seven years to the day. In the midst of this seven years; at 3.5, the peace treaty will be broken. The signer and the breaker of this treaty is none other than the Anti-Christ. We can determine exactly how many days from this signing to the return of Jesus. Knowing these signs means its not imminent and without warning.

The only imminent and without warning coming is what we interpret from the latin word rapturo, to be the rapture. It is the imminent, without warning , violent snatching away of the bride of Christ

My only question is Are you ready?
and my only statement is, See you there!!

Rapture Ready
DeeperStill, aka T

 

[carlos marquez]

With this verse I will prove beyond the shadow of any doubt that there is only one second comming ,and no secret rapture.

Hebrews 9:28.(KJV)
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

You cant get any clearer than this verse.This spells out the first and the second time.

 

[DeeperStill]

With this verse I will prove beyond the shadow of any doubt that there is only one second comming ,and no secret rapture.

Hebrews 9:28.(KJV)
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

You cant get any clearer than this verse.This spells out the first and the second time.

Do you really think this will settle the issue? :wink:


NOT!

 

[youngjohn]

Deeperstill:
I do not believe in a pretribulation rapture, for various reasons:
When Jesus answered the disciples' question in Matthew 24, He didn't teach a pretib rapture, but He would have if it were true.
Matt. 24 places the rapture in verse 31 after the Tribulation.
The chapter is about the parousia, and Paul wrote that the rapture will come at the parousia.
The pretrib rapture idea violates various scriptures that I won't state here.
The true order of future events is available in the Bible if one is not blinded by holding to the pretrib theory.

John

 

[faithworks]

Well John, You will not convince me a rapture so I will not argue with you. I let the Holy Spirit teach me in His word. Very good word deeperstill keep speaking what the Lord lays on your heart.

Blessings & Shalom,
debbi

ps john you better get going out of here things are heating up.

 

[youngjohn]

Dear faithworks, you wrote, "you will not convince me...." I think it is not my job to convince you. I only tell what I see in the scriptures.

God made Ezekiel a watchman to warn Israel. God said in Ezekiel 33:4 (ESV) "then if anyone who hears the sound of the trumpet does not take warning, and the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be upon his own head." If I give the warning, then anyone who hears is responsible to check out the Scripture. Check it out for yourself. 1 Thes. 5:21 (ESV) says, "but test everything; hold fast what is good."

John

 

[DeeperStill]

The Wonderful Grace of God does not demand we be convinced in the non-essential areas like the snatching away of the saints. He will graciously snatch us even if we are not convinced. Jesus will not send out the call only to the convinced.

He does not need our approval for Him to fulfill His sovereign will.

T

PRAISE GOD

 

[Gracealone]

many times when we advise others we need to take our own advice.

Dear faithworks, you wrote, "you will not convince me...." I think it is not my job to convince you. I only tell what I see in the scriptures.

God made Ezekiel a watchman to warn Israel. God said in Ezekiel 33:4 (ESV) "then if anyone who hears the sound of the trumpet does not take warning, and the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be upon his own head." If I give the warning, then anyone who hears is responsible to check out the Scripture. Check it out for yourself. 1 Thes. 5:21 (ESV) says, "but test everything; hold fast what is good."

John

Have you checked any of the scripture that shows the pre- trib?
What do you feel 1Thes. 5:9 is saying, in light of the first 8 vrs.?
We who belong to the bride groom, are not appointed unto his wrath.....comfort yourselves together , and edify one another....even as also you do?????

The rapture comes as a thief in the night, the second coming, every eye shall see him. Rev. 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.......

The rapture happens in a twinkling of an eye, and the world will only see the results of our being taken out.1Thes.4:16-17 we will meet him,in the air.....

Two different events.1Corinthians 15:52 and Rev.1:7

Comfort one another with these words.......comfort, comfort comfort, not, "his blood shall be upon his own head." :coocoo:

" I think it is not my job to convince you. I only tell what I see in the scriptures.

in this you speak truth....:thumbs_up:friends:

 

[letusgo27]

many times when we advise others we need to take our own advice.



Have you checked any of the scripture that shows the pre- trib?
What do you feel 1Thes. 5:9 is saying, in light of the first 8 vrs.?
We who belong to the bride groom, are not appointed unto his wrath.....comfort yourselves together , and edify one another....even as also you do?????

The rapture comes as a thief in the night, the second coming, every eye shall see him. Rev. 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.......

The rapture happens in a twinkling of an eye, and the world will only see the results of our being taken out.1Thes.4:16-17 we will meet him,in the air.....

Two different events.1Corinthians 15:52 and Rev.1:7

Comfort one another with these words.......comfort, comfort comfort, not, "his blood shall be upon his own head." :coocoo:

in this you speak truth....:thumbs_up:friends:

while it is true that wrath is not for those who follow Christ this does not mean or prove that we wont be here during it. the wrath of GOd is against the wicked so ofcourse its not for us but again it does not porve that we wont be on earth when it comes.

Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; [but] it shall not come nigh thee.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

plus you are seperating things that to me seem one and the same so what is your evidence that they are in fact different occurences?

I as yet have seen no evidence that we leave secretly before the wrath of GOd the great tribulation comes. please poduce scripture for me to look at thanx

blessings

 

[Gracealone]

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Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; [but] it shall not come nigh thee.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

plus you are seperating things that to me seem one and the same so what is your evidence that they are in fact different occurences?

I as yet have seen no evidence that we leave secretly before the wrath of GOd the great tribulation comes. please poduce scripture for me to look at thanx

blessings
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I already have, given you scripture, and so has others, Chad also has a thread covering these, and these you have given are not in relationship to the 7 year tribulation period.
If you will read through Revelation, you will see many who come to Christ during this 7 year time, are beheaded, martyred .
So to say that 10,000 shall fall at thy right hand but shall not come nigh thee, has to mean another time, and place.
The tribulation spoken of in Acts, is exactly that, tribulation, not the wrath of God.
The Bible says, We are "not" appointed unto wrath... 1Thes.5:9

Gods people have suffered tribulation from the beginning, many are this day, dieing for their faith, put in prison, some nailed to their door way etc.
This is mans hate for us, not Gods wrath against those who hate both Him, and us.
There is a very significant difference.

Revelation tells us the only ones during the 7 year tribulation, or wrath of God, is the 144,000 who are sealed, and they are Jews.
Many thousand will be martyred , and are the tribulation Saints.
Not the Church, who is the Bride of Christ.
I would recommend you read Revelation through, and get a good
study guide, to help understand some of the language. :friends:

 

[youngjohn]

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Friend:
The Bible actually outlines certain future events in the proper order to happen at the close of the age, and here is that order. First will come the time that Daniel called "Jacob's trouble," but Matthew called it the Great Tribulation.


Isaiah 26:16- 18 (ESV)
O Lord, in distress they sought you;
they poured out a whispered prayer
when your discipline was upon them.
Like a pregnant woman
who writhes and cries out in her pangs
when she is near to giving birth,
so were we because of you, O Lord;
we were pregnant, we writhed,
but we have given birth to wind.
We have accomplished no deliverance in the earth,
and the inhabitants of the world have not fallen.

Then Messiah will come and there will be a resurrection, but not of all the dead. This is only of the righteous.
Isaiah 26:19 (ESV)
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise.
You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a dew of light,
and the earth will give birth to the dead.

These righteous dead will be removed out from earth to the place where Elijah had been staying -- heaven. This event is commonly called the Rapture.
Isaiah 26:20 (ESV)
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
and shut your doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until the fury has passed by.

Then the wrath of God will be poured out on earth's inhabitants. Revelation called it the seven last plagues of the Wrath of God.
Isaiah 26:21 (ESV)
For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity,
and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it,
and will no more cover its slain.

Then that evil being called Satan will be punished. The word "sea" seems to represent a multitude of people.
Isaiah 27:1 (ESV)
In that day the Lord with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.

God has a special plan for Israel. In the Revelation this is called the Millennium.
Isaiah 27:6 (ESV)
In days to come Jacob shall take root,
Israel shall blossom and put forth shoots
and fill the whole world with fruit.

Notice that this does not follow the pretribulation rapture scheme. Notice also in this scheme, there are two future comings of Jesus to earth. Notice that the Great Tribulation is different from the Wrath of God.



John

 

[DeeperStill]

Could we please change the thread title from " Evidence" to "Opinion" Please?


T