Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[faithworks]

Sorry John that came out wrong. the Lord leads me into all truth. I said I do not believe we be lifted up, but my question is when. You see I do believe we will suffer for His name and I know so many are now in other countries just read VOM. What makes us so special that we will not suffer and just fly away before anything happens.

Again I will say the main thing is, do we all believe in Jesus and Him buried and rose again and someday we will be with Him? That is should be our focus in all things Him and Him alone JESUS CHRIST

Blessings Debbi

 

[Gracealone]

Notice that this does not follow the pretribulation rapture scheme. Notice also in this scheme, there are two future comings of Jesus to earth. Notice that the Great Tribulation is different from the Wrath of God.[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[/SIZE]

Isnt it strange that in many places in Revelation, after the Church has been removed, even those left behind admit it is the wrath of God.
So, no I dont notice at all....The great Tribulation is the wrath of God.

Revelation 6:16 11:18 14:10 15:1 16:1 16:19...all Revelation

The first three chapters of Revelation pinpoints the Church age, which we are still in, then after this as chapter 4 starts, after the church age........then the rapture , and the 7 year Tribulation, which is the wrath of God.
Then, we have been over this before.
And I like what Deeper still said earlier; [QUOTEThe Wonderful Grace of God does not demand we be convinced in the non-essential areas like the snatching away of the saints. He will graciously snatch us even if we are not convinced. Jesus will not send out the call only to the convinced.

He does not need our approval for Him to fulfill His sovereign will.
QUOTE]
IN that, I say, Amen

 

[DeeperStill]

...... You see I do believe we will suffer for His name and I know so many are now in other countries just read VOM. What makes us so special that we will not suffer....

Blessings Debbi

Debbi, If you do not wish to believe in the pre-trib rapture. That's ok with me. However, do not assume that God calls us all to be Tribulation-period martyrs.

I get the feeling that people believe that suffering is only a tribulation-period event. This is so untrue. People associate suffering with their present understanding of suffering and I am here to tell you that the suffering caused by the wrath of God will be so horrendous, so above and beyond any form of suffering you can even image, that you , like many others will be crying out in anguish that the rocks would fall on you and take your life.

Why in God's Holy name would anyone wish to call God a liar when he says " My children shall not see my wrath." Why in God's Holy Name would you even for a moment think that you must prove to God that you are somehow worthy. None of us are worthy and for this reason, His grace alone is the only reason we will get into heaven.

You have no idea what it will be like. I pray to God almighty that you never find out.

Thank God he will not give you what you want. You and every true believer will be snatched away and you will be praising God He did when you watch what happens.


T

 

[Gracealone]

You have no idea what it will be like. I pray to God almighty that you never find out.

Thank God he will not give you what you want. You and every true believer will be snatched away and you will be praising God He did when you watch what happens.

Amen to that...
Gods word says that in those' days it will be worse than anything we have Ever seen before, or ever shall again.

 

[letusgo27]

I already have, given you scripture, and so has others, Chad also has a thread covering these, and these you have given are not in relationship to the 7 year tribulation period.
If you will read through Revelation, you will see many who come to Christ during this 7 year time, are beheaded, martyred .
So to say that 10,000 shall fall at thy right hand but shall not come nigh thee, has to mean another time, and place.
The tribulation spoken of in Acts, is exactly that, tribulation, not the wrath of God.
The Bible says, We are "not" appointed unto wrath... 1Thes.5:9

Gods people have suffered tribulation from the beginning, many are this day, dieing for their faith, put in prison, some nailed to their door way etc.
This is mans hate for us, not Gods wrath against those who hate both Him, and us.
There is a very significant difference.

Revelation tells us the only ones during the 7 year tribulation, or wrath of God, is the 144,000 who are sealed, and they are Jews.
Many thousand will be martyred , and are the tribulation Saints.
Not the Church, who is the Bride of Christ.
I would recommend you read Revelation through, and get a good
study guide, to help understand some of the language. :friends:

ok some things I wont address here like the 144,000 because it is a nother subject all together but one thing that is wierd to me is this whole idea of 7 years of tribulation or wrath which is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible there is no scripture that talks about tribulation going for 7 years. all assumption the 7 year thing.

and for that matter there is no proof from scripture that I have seen yet that proves a secret reapture or rapture before the tribulatin time or wrath as you put it.

where is it?

 

[faithworks]

I firmly believe the wrath of God does not abide on true saints of the Most High God.

Blessings & Shalom,
debbi

The saints we read of in Voice of the Martyr's are not under the wrath they are suffering for being a believer in Christ.

 

[DeeperStill]

ok some things I wont address here like the 144,000 because it is a nother subject all together but one thing that is wierd to me is this whole idea of 7 years of tribulation or wrath which is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible there is no scripture that talks about tribulation going for 7 years. all assumption the 7 year thing.

and for that matter there is no proof from scripture that I have seen yet that proves a secret reapture or rapture before the tribulatin time or wrath as you put it.

where is it?

"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abomination shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand, two hundred and ninety days (1290). Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days (1335)." (Daniel 12:11-12)

"He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time." (Daniel 7:25)

"And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty two months." (Revelations 13:5)

"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, then those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." (Matthew 24:15-22)

 

[letusgo27]

deeprestill

"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abomination shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand, two hundred and ninety days (1290). Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days (1335)." (Daniel 12:11-12)

"He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time." (Daniel 7:25)

"And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty two months." (Revelations 13:5)

"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, then those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." (Matthew 24:15-22)

I have herd this one before but no were does it say that this seven is the tribulation in fact it is the last week of a 49 week prophecy and has been completed already. many seperate the last week from the rest but there is no Biblical basis for this action.

this prophecy began in 457bc when the decree went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem found in the book of EZRA. thus 49 weeks=490 years from this time brings us to 34ad as the finish point of the last week. in fact it is this prophecy that pinpoints the exact year in Which Jesus would die. in the middle of the week 3 and one half years from the baptism of JEsus in 27 ad in the 15th year of Tiberius
which brings you to 31 ad where Jesus died on the cross and thuss put an end to sin offering becasue Jesus is the once for all sin offering etc and then 3 and one half years later Stephen was stoned the first Christian marter after Jesus and Saul became Paul and started preaching to the gentiles.

there you have it the dates match with history and fullfills the prophecy so taking the last week and putting it somewhere els is not accurate

I know this is short had to be quick didnt have time to explaine it all
blessings

 

[DeeperStill]

I have herd this one before but no were does it say that this seven is the tribulation in fact it is the last week of a 49 week prophecy and has been completed already. many seperate the last week from the rest but there is no Biblical basis for this action.

this prophecy began in 457bc when the decree went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem found in the book of EZRA. thus 49 weeks=490 years from this time brings us to 34ad as the finish point of the last week. in fact it is this prophecy that pinpoints the exact year in Which Jesus would die. in the middle of the week 3 and one half years from the baptism of JEsus in 27 ad in the 15th year of Tiberius
which brings you to 31 ad where Jesus died on the cross and thuss put an end to sin offering becasue Jesus is the once for all sin offering etc and then 3 and one half years later Stephen was stoned the first Christian marter after Jesus and Saul became Paul and started preaching to the gentiles.

there you have it the dates match with history and fullfills the prophecy so taking the last week and putting it somewhere els is not accurate

I know this is short had to be quick didnt have time to explaine it all
blessings

Are you a preterist?

T

 

[Gracealone]

Originally Posted by letusgo27
I have herd this one before but no were does it say that this seven is the tribulation in fact it is the last week of a 49 week prophecy and has been completed already. many seperate the last week from the rest but there is no Biblical basis for this action.

this prophecy began in 457bc when the decree went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem found in the book of EZRA. thus 49 weeks=490 years from this time brings us to 34ad as the finish point of the last week. in fact it is this prophecy that pinpoints the exact year in Which Jesus would die. in the middle of the week 3 and one half years from the baptism of JEsus in 27 ad in the 15th year of Tiberius
which brings you to 31 ad where Jesus died on the cross and thuss put an end to sin offering becasue Jesus is the once for all sin offering etc and then 3 and one half years later Stephen was stoned the first Christian marter after Jesus and Saul became Paul and started preaching to the gentiles.

there you have it the dates match with history and fullfills the prophecy so taking the last week and putting it somewhere els is not accurate

I know this is short had to be quick didnt have time to explaine it all
blessings

The tribulation is 7 years.....Revelation 11:2 Revelation 11:3
3 1/2 and 3 1/2 of those two vrs= 7 years.

This 7 year period is the last week of years foretold, and completes the prophecy. the last 7 years yet to be fulfilled, at the end of the church age.

From Revelation 3: the church age, which has not ended yet, until the rapture, and the start of the tribulation is yet future. It has not been fulfilled as of this day, but may start soon, and very soon.
Revelation 4: says, After these things , referring to what was just previous, the church age, the letter to the Churches.
Then the last 7 years will be accomplished, the Tribulation, and the wrath of God.
After this time Jesus returns on a White horse, as King of Kings, then shortly after the 1000 year reign begins.
Agree the confusion lies in the fact that you have this last 7 years already in the past.
That would make us in the 1000 year reign now, and Satan bound, that does not add up, for Jesus,and his church will reign with a rod of iron during that time.
Sure don't see that anywhere today, do you? Revelation 19: and 20:
Satan is going to and fro upon the earth, seeking whom he may devour, not bound up.
For he knows his time is short.

 

[letusgo27]

The tribulation is 7 years.....Revelation 11:2 Revelation 11:3
3 1/2 and 3 1/2 of those two vrs= 7 years.

This 7 year period is the last week of years foretold, and completes the prophecy. the last 7 years yet to be fulfilled, at the end of the church age.

From Revelation 3: the church age, which has not ended yet, until the rapture, and the start of the tribulation is yet future. It has not been fulfilled as of this day, but may start soon, and very soon.
Revelation 4: says, After these things , referring to what was just previous, the church age, the letter to the Churches.
Then the last 7 years will be accomplished, the Tribulation, and the wrath of God.
After this time Jesus returns on a White horse, as King of Kings, then shortly after the 1000 year reign begins.
Agree the confusion lies in the fact that you have this last 7 years already in the past.
That would make us in the 1000 year reign now, and Satan bound, that does not add up, for Jesus,and his church will reign with a rod of iron during that time.
Sure don't see that anywhere today, do you? Revelation 19: and 20:
Satan is going to and fro upon the earth, seeking whom he may devour, not bound up.
For he knows his time is short.

sorry where do you get 3 and one half from that in fact this lines up perfectly with Daniel's vision.

42 months is the same as 1260 days same time streem here.

42 months is 1260 days in jewish calander a day for a year is 1260 years not 3 and one half years.

Daniel 7 vers 25 mentions this same time period again as a time times and half a time. ok now going by jewish culture and calander this would mean: time is one year times is two years and half a time is half a year. this is where you may say 3 and one half years but that is cutting the prophecy short because its the jewish calander and this is prophecy so its a day for a year prociple therfore this three and one half years is made up of of 30 day months and added up is 1260 years which just happens to be the time that a curtain power that went up against GOd lasted from 538ad to 1798ad ending i the french revolution Im sure you know who I am talking about. you know that for 300 years all protestants held these views it was only when a cuirten power changed things that we have all these new views today.

 

[Gracealone]

these views it was only when a cuirten power changed things that we have all these new views today.

Sorry, these views are as eternal as Gods word is, for it is Gods word.
They didn't come from my mouth but from the God breathed pen of the Apostle John.

Read Revelation through, and ask God to let you see, and mean it.
He will.
Go back and click on the reference... Your adding to the word here, 1260 days is just what it says, 1260 days, not years.
This is the rebuilt Temple that will be built during the tribulation.
Not referring to the old testament temple.

These events are yet to happen, after the church age has come to an end.

 

[Stephen1]

"Before we even hit any of the individual items, it must first be pointed out that the evidence for the pre-tribulation rapture is far from overwhelming"

>Not true

>The exact and prevailing evidence of the Lord's early immortalization of the church is given in Revelation's unfolding: [Revelation 4:4; 5:4-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-6; 19:9-14; 20:4]

>Descerning students of Bible prophecy will find this

 

[Stephen1]

"Go back and click on the reference... Your adding to the word here, 1260 days is just what it says, 1260 days, not years."

>True

>Daniel has the time frame and time lapse of the "time of the end" and Revelation confirms this [Daniel 12:1-12] [Revelation 11:2; 11:3, 12:6; 12:14, 13, 16]

>1,260 days + 1,260 days + 30 days + 45 days

>The Jewish heptad is one week of 7 years .... each year consists of 360 prophetic 24 hour days

>The first 2,520 days complete the 70th week [the tribulation period]

>The next 30 days will involve the Lord's destruction of the beast and his kingdom [followers] [Revelation 16:1-21]

>The next 45 days will involve the Lord's gathering of the mortal survivors of the tribulation period for separation and entrance into His millennial kingdom on the earth [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

>The 70 weeks of years [490 prophetic years] decreed for national Israel are explained in Daniel 9:23-27

>This is the covenant confirmed .... for Daniel's people, national Israel]

>The Lord will confirm this covenant by executing the 70th during which the 6 objectives will be reached for the believing remnant of national Israel [Daniel 9:26-27]

>The beast [the other prince that shall come .... the little horn .... Daniel 8:9-12; 8:23-25, 11:36-45; 12:7] and his followers will invade the nation at the middle of the week and will destroy, desecrate, and occupy Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount for 42 months .... 1,260 days [Ezekiel 38:14-17] [Daniel 9:26-27] [Zechariah 14:1] [Revelation 11:2; 13:5]

>The 69 weeks of years [483 prophetic years] transpired in 33 A.D.

>This time frame began in 445 B.C. [Daniel 9:25] when the remnant of Israel returned from the Babylonian captivity under Persian rule to rebulid the city of Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah Prince Jesus Christ

>The 70th week is still pending and there is nothing recorded of earthly events in the prophetic visions from the end of the 69th week until the beginning of the 70th

>This future time frame is the Day of the Lord beginning with His coming judgment of the earth for intransigence and unbelief .... and then His ensuing millennial kingdom which will last for 1,000 prophetic years

 

[johnpaul]

the Holy Spirit

Before we even hit any of the individual items, it must first be pointed out that the evidence for the pre-tribulation rapture is far from overwhelming. If it had been, surely someone would have noticed it before the pre-trib theory was invented in the 1830’s. No early church father, commentary or any other source mentions it before then. The post-trib rapture was the official point of view for the past 2,000 years, and is still the majority opinion throughout the world.
QUOTE]

It was, I believe, revealed by the Holy Spirit in His timely fashion. Possibly, in the same way that Einstein not Newton discovered Relativity: It's always been there though.
The same with pre-trib rapture. It needed to be revealed by God. And in the 19th Centuary, it was.
Sorry brother Chad, I couldn't think of a biblical analogy.

 

[johnpaul]

All I can say is Amen, Janette. The flames of hope and faith are rekindled.

 

[ushalk]

i really hate to inform you that there truly is no promise of a pretribulation rapture anywhere in the word of god. jesus warns us of the tribulation and us going through it in the gospel. then it is pointed out again revelations. there is nothing concrete in the word of god who is or is not going to go through the tribulation period.

if you think that i am wrong go to a country where christians are persecuted everyday for their faith. even unto death and tell them oh the rapture is going to come before the tribulation. jesus even stated that during the tribulation that christians are going to be persecuted and deceived even by their own family members.

 

[greatlybeloved]

ushalk,

i really hate to inform you that there truly is no promise of a pretribulation rapture anywhere in the word of god. jesus warns us of the tribulation and us going through it in the gospel. then it is pointed out again revelations. there is nothing concrete in the word of god who is or is not going to go through the tribulation period.

I am not a "pre-tribber" or for that matter I don't support any view FULLY (as every view has its flaws). However, there is atleast ONE verse that kind of "pre-tribbers" can use (they don't even base their argument on that verse, funny!).

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. BUT YE, BRETHREN, are NOT IN DARKNESS, that THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU as a thief."
The above passage clearly seem to say that the body of Christ (NT Church) will not go through the "day of the Lord". That can be used for "pre-trib" argument.

However, my understanding is that the "day of the Lord" is NOT tribulation, rather it is AFTER tribulation. Please see Joel 2:31 and Matthew 24:29

if you think that i am wrong go to a country where christians are persecuted everyday for their faith. even unto death and tell them oh the rapture is going to come before the tribulation. jesus even stated that during the tribulation that christians are going to be persecuted and deceived even by their own family members.

The "tribulation" or "great tribulation" mentioned in the Scriptures is far greater and worse than what we see in China or any country in the world. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21). So the idea that we are already in tribulation is far from truth. And the tribulation/great tribulation starts with "abomination of desolation" (Mat 24:15-21).

 

[ushalk]

ushalk,



I am not a "pre-tribber" or for that matter I don't support any view FULLY (as every view has its flaws). However, there is atleast ONE verse that kind of "pre-tribbers" can use (they don't even base their argument on that verse, funny!).

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. BUT YE, BRETHREN, are NOT IN DARKNESS, that THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU as a thief."
The above passage clearly seem to say that the body of Christ (NT Church) will not go through the "day of the Lord". That can be used for "pre-trib" argument.

However, my understanding is that the "day of the Lord" is NOT tribulation, rather it is AFTER tribulation. Please see Joel 2:31 and Matthew 24:29





The "tribulation" or "great tribulation" mentioned in the Scriptures is far greater and worse than what we see in China or any country in the world. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21). So the idea that we are already in tribulation is far from truth. And the tribulation/great tribulation starts with "abomination of desolation" (Mat 24:15-21).

thank you. i thought that you were backing up the pre trib. if you look at what is happening to christians in the middle east, china, eritrea and many other places it is building. the torture that christians are going through is very bad. take for instance a young man in sudan was nailed to a chair through his knees and his elbows. i personally believe that we are in the days of the beginning of the tribulation. christ will return soon and on that day he will rise up the church and will reign on the earth.

 

[01redeemed]

I am glad that you are comfortable with your rapture beliefs.

I too am comfortable with mine.

We will both know when it happens and I hope to see you in the clouds with the Lord.

When I read this I had a sinking feeling within my spirit. It is with great consideration I say this to you. We are not meant to be "comfortable" with our beliefs. It is not about what we believe it is about "Truth". And we are told in the bible that the Spirit will guide us into all truth! We are truth seekers! I pray that this will stir you and make you seek the truth in all things and never settle for comfortable in anything. May the Lord bless you.