Hell for non-followers of Christ?

[SpiritLedEd]

If you have not accepted Christ as your saviour that you will go to hell.

There's a difference between not accepting Christ and refusing to accept Him. Since the gospel has not been preached to all nations, there are many who have died and will die without having heard the Word and therefore not had the chance to receive Jesus. The issue centers around whether or not folks are genuinely and diligently seeking spiritual truth.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him." (Heb 11:6 NIV)

Spirit Led Ed (SLE)

 

[Fraction]

Grace = salvation through our faith, not that faith itself. Without His grace we are lost.

Very true and I should have added this. The root of salavation is Grace and Grace alone. We get into His grace by accepting his gift (Jesus Christ as our savior). Having faith. Exactly. Thank you for throwing this in there.

Fraction,

Other translations may well say that but it is a subjunctive in the Greek.

In the Greek translation?

The word should, wasn't used until recently (in time) in the bible. It just didnt hold a place yet. The words SHALL NOT and WILL NOT, were used. In the Greek and Hebrew languages, they didn't operate like english does. One word had a single meaning and usage, there were no hidden tricks with the old text was written. In english translations they try to do the best they can to grasp that. Sometimes they do fail, but this is not one of those times. John 3:16 is the Gospel in a "nutshell". It strictly states:
1. Believe in Jesus Christ
2. Never have a spiritual death
3. Have everlasting spiritual life

 

[MsMree]

No, I am not saying that there is no such thing as hell, I am saying that the punishment for sin is death not unending torment or separation from Christ.

I'm really confused by what I've read you say on this thread.

Is there any such thing as hell?

What is hell like?

If the punishment for sin is death why is not not equal to hell?

Why is the punishment is not unending torment or separation from Christ?

I'm pretty sure if I understood this I would understand what you're saying better.

 

[Fraction]

I'm really confused by what I've read you say on this thread.

Is there any such thing as hell?

What is hell like?

If the punishment for sin is death why is not not equal to hell?

Why is the punishment is not unending torment or separation from Christ?

I'm pretty sure if I understood this I would understand what you're saying better.

He didn't say hell does not exist. He never said there is no separation from Jesus Christ. He only said that the just punishment for sin is death. This refers to the ultimate "Second Death".

The second death includes all of these things, it's just a title. Second Death/Death is just a title when focusing on this area. All sorts of punishments fall under this title, which is why it is the ultimate punishment.

 

[RJ]

No, I am not saying that there is no such thing as hell, I am saying that the punishment for sin is death not unending torment or separation from Christ.

There are many scriptures that talk about this type of death and here is just a few:

Romans 6:16

New International Version (NIV)

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

This death is Spiritual Death. We obviously all will die our mortal, physical death but not all will die Spiritually.

Another:

1 Corinthians 15

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

It is raised a spitual body. This is a Christian. Only a true Christian has God living in them as promised. God says that he is Spirit. When we are saved, we become one with the Spirit; we are now in Christ and Christ is in us, spiritually.
When a true Christian dies his physical death, he is raised spiritually as a part of Christ.
If you die physically without Christ in you....you die spiritually!!...Spiritual Death!

Another:
Matthew 10:28
New International Version (NIV)

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

If you are not spiritually alive with Christ in heaven your soul is absent from Christ and spiritually dead with Satin in Hell.

I for the life of me, can not see how you can say:


the punishment for sin is death not unending torment or separation from Christ.[/QUOTE

 

[Fraction]

There are many scriptures that talk about this type of death and here is just a few:

Romans 6:16

New International Version (NIV)

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

This death is Spiritual Death. We obviously all will die our mortal, physical death but not all will die Spiritually.

Another:

1 Corinthians 15

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

It is raised a spitual body. This is a Christian. Only a true Christian has God living in them as promised. God says that he is Spirit. When we are saved, we become one with the Spirit; we are now in Christ and Christ is in us, spiritually.
When a true Christian dies his physical death, he is raised spiritually as a part of Christ.
If you die physically without Christ in you....you die spiritually!!...Spiritual Death!

Another:
Matthew 10:28
New International Version (NIV)

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

If you are not spiritually alive with Christ in heaven your soul is absent from Christ and spiritually dead with Satin in Hell.

I for the life of me, can not see how you can say:


the punishment for sin is death not unending torment or separation from Christ.[/QUOTE

According to the bible: the just punishment for sin IS death. That is the point it is given off. It doesn't mean all these extra things that we are discussing are not included in the "second death". It just means that they come with death, they walk hand in hand.

When you read JF's post you have to look outside of the box a little. He is stating his opinions in his way and being literal most of the time about it. Look at it from all directions. It's like a game he plays.

 

[RJ]

According to the bible: the just punishment for sin IS death. That is the point it is given off. It doesn't mean all these extra things that we are discussing are not included in the "second death". It just means that they come with death, they walk hand in hand.

When you read JF's post you have to look outside of the box a little. He is stating his opinions in his way and being literal most of the time about it. Look at it from all directions. It's like a game he plays.

My reply was directed more to Jiggyfly.

The point is that we all die physically.
The "death" that these scriptures refer to is after our physical death and it means Spiritual Death...... spiritual non-existence with Christ.

If when you die physically and you die witout Christ in you spiritually, meaning you have not been saved, then not only do you die physically but you die spiritually as well!!

 

[TouchTestimony]

My reply was directed more to Jiggyfly.

The point is that we all die physically.
The "death" that these scriptures refer to is after our physical death and it means Spiritual Death...... spiritual non-existence with Christ.

If when you die physically and you die witout Christ in you spiritually, meaning you have not been saved, then not only do you die physically but you die spiritually as well!!

thank you, that was pretty much the kind of explanation i was looking for.

 

[Fraction]

That is exactly what I said.

It is highly debatable on what happens when our body dies. Bodily death is sometimes referred to as sleep in the bible. However, Jesus Christ said that the thief on the cross would walk with him in paradise that day.

Some believe that you either go directly to Heaven, or directly to Hell after you die depending on if you have found salvation or not. Others believe that you sleep until the events in revelation happen. When God rises the dead in Christ, and then snatches them up alone with the others.

However everyone is judged on judgement day, no one is excluded from this. This is why I believe in the sleep concept. Then on judgement day, believers will be declared righteous. Unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire (this is the second death, the spiritual death).

There is no exactly scripture that points this out I am sure, but there isn't any scripture that points out that we immediately go to Heaven or Hell after we die. To me, the sleeping makes a little more sense. Might not to others, but that's okay.

 

[RJ]

That is exactly what I said.


Just some observations:

It is highly debatable on what happens when our body dies. 1 COR 13 doesn't debate it, you are instantly perfected in the presence of God. Bodily death is sometimes referred to as sleep in the bible. However, Jesus Christ said that the thief on the cross would walk with him in paradise that day. Jesus walked among the living after death, in his ressurected body and so did the theif, as well as others and so shall we just as God promises!

Some believe that you either go directly to Heaven, or directly to Hell after you die depending on if you have found salvation or not. Others believe that you sleep until the events in revelation happen. When God rises the dead in Christ, and then snatches them up alone with the others. There is a lot God can teach other than only verbatum by the word. God also gave us the power to reason and understand based on deductive reasoning and, of course, the Holy Spirit gives us decernment. When we die we are fully spirit. Jesus said that he is the begining and the end, not that he is the begining and will be the end...he is both at the same time and so shall we. You can't use your wordly, physical knowledge to understand the things of the other realm. God said that he is spirit and that we must worship him in spirit and truth. The truth is, in the spirit world, there is no time as we know it. In this world you can be at the begining at the same time!

However everyone is judged on judgement day, no one is excluded from this. This is why I believe in the sleep concept. Then on judgement day, believers will be declared righteous. Unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire (this is the second death, the spiritual death).

There is no exactly scripture that points this out I am sure, but there isn't any scripture that points out that we immediately go to Heaven or Hell after we die. To me, the sleeping makes a little more sense. Might not to others, but that's okay.

1 COR 6:17 " But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The moment that you are saved, you are joined with the Lord in one Spirit. When you die your physical death, you don't go anywhere but to be with the Lord for ever!

 

[Fraction]

1 COR 6:17 " But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The moment that you are saved, you are joined with the Lord in one Spirit. When you die your physical death, you don't go anywhere but to be with the Lord for ever!

1 Cor 13 seems to be mostly about love. Also about faith and hope later in the chapter. I don't see how it talks about instantly being perfected in the presence of God.

I do believe that we are perfected in spirit when we accept Jesus Christ as out savior though. That isn't what 1Cor 13 is about though. So I don't understand what you're saying when you talk about it in the way that you did.

Jesus Christ was resurrected to complete the prophecy. Those who Jesus Christ resurrected after were His actions alone, and only He knows what He did so at that moment. We will of course all be resurrected, and then raptured. Just like God promises in revelation.

Jesus Christ is God in human form, therefor he is God. The alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. This simply means that God created the earth in Genesis, and will end it in Revelation. The bible is the book from the beginning to the end. This has nothing to do with what I have said, or the bodily death of anyone. It has everything to do with the creation of everything, and everything to do with believers names written in the book of life on judgement day. Creation is the beginning, judgement day is the end.

I agree that the moment you are saved you are joined with the Holy Spirit. Which is in fact the direct link to God. Spiritually you belong to Him. It's all linked together.

Ever get surgery before? You get the gas or the IV, and the second you close your eyes you open them again and the surgery is over. It's like nothing has happened and no time has passed.

This is the kind of sleep I am talking about. So when people die their bodily death, their spirits are sleeping and waiting for revelation. When believers die their bodily death, they immediately wake up as if no time has passed at all. They are resurrected, and raptured along with the believers on earth. They are then judged separated by the book of life from non believers. Then they enter the kingdom of God.

Why would God bring us to heaven, then resurrect us on earth, only to just bring us back again instantly? Why is everyone judged on judgement day including the resurrected? The bible is a very logical book, and should be looked at logically with faith. At least that is how I look at it.

My opinions aren't strictly pointed out in the bible, I have gathered my ideas and feelings from putting research together to find what makes sense to me.

 

[RJ]

1 Cor 13 seems to be mostly about love. Also about faith and hope later in the chapter. I don't see how it talks about instantly being perfected in the presence of God.

I do believe that we are perfected in spirit when we accept Jesus Christ as out savior though. That isn't what 1Cor 13 is about though. So I don't understand what you're saying when you talk about it in the way that you did.

Jesus Christ was resurrected to complete the prophecy. Those who Jesus Christ resurrected after were His actions alone, and only He knows what He did so at that moment. We will of course all be resurrected, and then raptured. Just like God promises in revelation.

Jesus Christ is God in human form, therefor he is God. The alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. This simply means that God created the earth in Genesis, and will end it in Revelation. The bible is the book from the beginning to the end. This has nothing to do with what I have said, or the bodily death of anyone. It has everything to do with the creation of everything, and everything to do with believers names written in the book of life on judgement day. Creation is the beginning, judgement day is the end.

I agree that the moment you are saved you are joined with the Holy Spirit. Which is in fact the direct link to God. Spiritually you belong to Him. It's all linked together.

Ever get surgery before? You get the gas or the IV, and the second you close your eyes you open them again and the surgery is over. It's like nothing has happened and no time has passed.

This is the kind of sleep I am talking about. So when people die their bodily death, their spirits are sleeping and waiting for revelation. When believers die their bodily death, they immediately wake up as if no time has passed at all. They are resurrected, and raptured along with the believers on earth. They are then judged separated by the book of life from non believers. Then they enter the kingdom of God.

Why would God bring us to heaven, then resurrect us on earth, only to just bring us back again instantly? Why is everyone judged on judgement day including the resurrected? The bible is a very logical book, and should be looked at logically with faith. At least that is how I look at it.

My opinions aren't strictly pointed out in the bible, I have gathered my ideas and feelings from putting research together to find what makes sense to me.





1 Corinthians 13

New Living Translation (NLT)


1 Corinthians 13

Love Is the Greatest

1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. 3 If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it;[a] but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
8 Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages[b] and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! 9 Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! 10 But when full understanding comes, these partial things will become useless.
11 When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12 Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.[c] All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.
Footnotes:

1. 1 Corinthians 13:3 Some manuscripts read sacrificed my body to be burned.
2. 1 Corinthians 13:8 Or in tongues.
3. 1 Corinthians 13:12 Greek see face to face.

This is the explanation that I have:

1. This is the love chapter but, I think many miss what it is saying with regards to the Bible in it's entirety.

2. Paul had previous told the church that all the Ten Commandments could be summed up in one word, Love.

3. Here in 1 Corinthians 13, Paul exlains the kind of love that he was refering to. Essentially he was telling them that this was perfect love, God's love and that they couldn't do this any better than they could fulfill the 10 Commandments.

4. In the latter parts of the chapter, he explains that it's O.K., that there will be a time when you can. A time when your imperfection will go away and your perfection will come. This is when we become 100 % spirit after our physical death, after tongues have ceased and our full understanding will come.

5. The Greek translation, says that we will see God Face to Face. For the Orthodox Jew this was unspeakable. They knew that in Exodus, God had told Moses that no Man can look him in the face and live.

6. But now as a fully spiritual and lnowledgable being we look God face to face and know him as well as he knows us; that can only come after perfection.

7. Then Paul says what remains now is Faith in Jesus Christ, our Hope of perfection and eternity with him and our Love for one another.

 

[jiggyfly]

I'm really confused by what I've read you say on this thread.

Is there any such thing as hell?

What is hell like?

If the punishment for sin is death why is not not equal to hell?

Why is the punishment is not unending torment or separation from Christ?

I'm pretty sure if I understood this I would understand what you're saying better.

We know from the scriptures that God is just (Deut.32:4) and that Christ was punished and paid for our sins (Hebrews 9:28). So how was Christ punished? Was it unending torment? Was it eternal separation from God? Did He die spiritually? What was the punishment that befell Christ on our behalf? The scriptures tell us that it was death.

Here is something to consider, would God be a just judge to impose a sentence of unending torture and torment when the law dictates a sentence of death? Is justice served if the sentence is not consistent? Is God a consistent judge?

 

[David777]

Yes.

The answer can only be yes, death is the outcome of judgement.

 

[Fraction]

Take a look at 1-3, he is talking about himself and actions. He separates love from actions, faith from actions, and faith from love. This describes his actions meaningless without love. When you perform actions outside of love in the bodily, it is the wrong way of going about it.

IE: If someone asked me for ten dollars, and then I thought to myself...he this is the right thing to do and I will feel better about myself. It sounds a little selfish. If we do it because we love and care about humanity and want to help it move along, it is correct. Do actions out of love, not because you think it's the right thing to do or feel pity.

This chapter is not talking about Gods love for us. We all know God loves us, and I am not denying that at all. This chapter is strictly about loving others and describing its power. It tells us that we need love. By loving, you will complete Gods commandments. We are not held back or bound by the law anymore. We are free from it. We uphold it all with love and love alone.

God cannot be in the presence of sin. When we accept the gift of salvation, our spiritual selves become sinless. We then get imbued with the Holy Spirit which denies all sin in our sinful nature. So when we sin in the body, our hearts will say "that was wrong". It no longer says things like "it doesn't matter or its okay". Our hearts/spirit/soul is one with the Holy Spirit and is now pure.

We will know God 100% after judgement day. We will understand him altogether. All these unanswered questions that are floating around, we will know the answer. All the random doubts or feelings, will vanish for eternity. All sinful nature, will be gone.

 

[TouchTestimony]

1 COR 6:17 " But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The moment that you are saved, you are joined with the Lord in one Spirit. When you die your physical death, you don't go anywhere but to be with the Lord for ever!

thank you again

 

[Beans]

Here is something to consider, would God be a just judge to impose a sentence of unending torture and torment when the law dictates a sentence of death? Is justice served if the sentence is not consistent? Is God a consistent judge?

This discussion reminds me of another thread (can't find it right now), where we were talking about whether God would impose the same punishment for every sin, or whether he will give punishments equivalent to the sin involved. This question could open up another huge topic, but it seems somewhat relevant since you are asking whether God is a just and consistent judge.

Regarding the question

"would God be a just judge to impose a sentence of unending torture and torment when the law dictates a sentence of death?"

I would have to say "No". If he is to be consistent and just, then he would not impose a greater judgement than is required by the Law.

 

[RJ]

This discussion reminds me of another thread (can't find it right now), where we were talking about whether God would impose the same punishment for every sin, or whether he will give punishments equivalent to the sin involved. This question could open up another huge topic, but it seems somewhat relevant since you are asking whether God is a just and consistent judge.

Regarding the question

I would have to say "No". If he is to be consistent and just, then he would not impose a greater judgement than is required by the Law.

You can call it what you want but, when you die physically, your soul goes somewhere for all etenity.

Going somehwere for all eternity, void of the spirit of God, I would call that Hell as much as anything. And I think we are better served by not painting God into a corner and say he wouldn't do this unjust thing or he woudn't do this certain thing; it is his Universe and I pretty much think he can do what ever he wants, much less justified by us.

Sin is sin. God is absolute perfection and anything we do outside of his perfect will and being is a sin. Doubt and negativety is a sin and it seperates us from God as any other sin no matter how awful we think it is.

Jesus died for all and all sin. The only sin that is not forgiven is that of un-belief. Paul says it best in
Romans 8:1
" Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ".

 

[Fraction]

I believe that our souls go somewhere for eternity after Judgement Day, not after the death of our body. This is my opinion on it. It is logical to assume this because Jesus Christ resurrected people when he walked on this earth. Then in revelation, God resurrects the dead. Then he raptures the believers.

So in this perspective, the sleep theory makes sense. However this is opinionated.

Everything else in your post RJ I agree with. I don't understand why you brought it up, but you do that a lot. It's okay, it is wonderful information anyways.

 

[RJ]

I believe that our souls go somewhere for eternity after Judgement Day, not after the death of our body. This is my opinion on it. It is logical to assume this because Jesus Christ resurrected people when he walked on this earth. Then in revelation, God resurrects the dead. Then he raptures the believers.

So in this perspective, the sleep theory makes sense. However this is opinionated.

Everything else in your post RJ I agree with. I don't understand why you brought it up, but you do that a lot. It's okay, it is wonderful information anyways.

Again, as in a previous post:

1 COR 6:17 " But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The moment that you are saved, you are joined with the Lord in one Spirit. When you die your physical death, you don't go anywhere but remain to be with the Lord for ever and realize it perfectly!